Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

[5RWill]

Well i went and talked to my local gunsmith today who shoots F class and is going to let me shoot his 6mm Dasher. He wants me to get my .308 ready which i will. But he recommended that i ditch the 155gr lapua scenars all together and go with a 168gr SMK for 600yd. So i type in the ballastic calculator thinking that maybe the 168gr is somehow less affected by wind but it isn't. So other than that i can't see where he is coming from. Just doesn't make sense. Maybe Lapua bullets cost a little more but i just don't see a downside to shooting the 155gr scenar. He also said i need to be able to shoot a 1/2 MOA 20 shot group, IDK weather he is just hell bent over how he learned his competition ways or if that is how the BR community is... but God.. I understand he is in large part referring to consistency which is also affected downrange. I show him my latest group of 9 shots of 155gr scenars which was about a .800 hole. I plan on doing a little prep work on my brass and switch to softer charge primers which should help the group shrink and give me more consistent muzzle velocity. Should i do what he says or am i missing something?
__________________

 

[elephantrider]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

You are right to question your gunsmith's advice. The 168gr SMK used to be the top of the heap, but there are many better choices available now. As you discovered, the Lapua 155 Scenar will out perform the 168SMK. His advice probably comes from the old days when the 168SMK was the long range standard. If your 155 load is working for you, I would stick with it.

When it comes to advice, take it all with some grains of salt. Do your own research and determine what works for you.
Here is a good website to do some F-class research.
www.6mmbr.com

 

[5RWill]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

Yeah i have 6mmbr bookmarked as one of my favorites. I think he is old fashioned because i mentioned how i had found my favorite 6.5 cartridge in the 6.5Lr, because it was ballastically similar to the 6.5-284 but in a short action. And he stressed how the barrel life would be it's downfall. Thanks for the input i'm definitely sticking with the 155gr scenar.

 

[vman]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

The 168 is a good pill, BUT it falls apart at long range.

The 155scenar is a great little beast of a thing.

20 shot 1/2 moa group... Thats pretty intense.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 168 is a good pill, BUT it falls apart at long range.

The 155scenar is a great little beast of a thing.

20 shot 1/2 moa group... Thats pretty intense.</div></div>

600 yards is not long range, it's mid range. Nevertheless, I've had great success with the 168 in 600 yard prone events. I have no experience with any 155 but I assume with an appropriate twist its reduced recoil would allow for less fatiguing results at 600. At any rate, concentrate on marksmanship as just about any .30 caliber bullet with a decent BC can get the job done at 600.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well i went and talked to my local gunsmith today who shoots F class and is going to let me shoot his 6mm Dasher. He wants me to get my .308 ready which i will. But he recommended that i ditch the 155gr lapua scenars all together and go with a 168gr SMK for 600yd. So i type in the ballastic calculator thinking that maybe the 168gr is somehow less affected by wind but it isn't. So other than that i can't see where he is coming from. Just doesn't make sense. Maybe Lapua bullets cost a little more but i just don't see a downside to shooting the 155gr scenar. He also said i need to be able to shoot a 1/2 MOA 20 shot group, IDK weather he is just hell bent over how he learned his competition ways or if that is how the BR community is... but God.. I understand he is in large part referring to consistency which is also affected downrange. I show him my latest group of 9 shots of 155gr scenars which was about a .800 hole. I plan on doing a little prep work on my brass and switch to softer charge primers which should help the group shrink and give me more consistent muzzle velocity. Should i do what he says or am i missing something?
__________________</div></div>

Listen to your gunsmith regarding rifle repair. Listen to the folks who are winning regarding good shooting.

 

[Leaddog]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

I go with the 175SMK's for 600. The 168 is great at 300 and would be my choice for that range, but I think the 175 is better at 600. For long range, the 185 BTLR bullets get the nod.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

I had a person over at thefiringline explain where he was coming from i think. He mentioned my accuracy equating over range. Which i fully realize accuracy varies from range to range. And i think the gunsmith just was suggesting it for accuracy. I just don't see anyone in their right mind suggesting it for any range if you get the gun to group with 155gr scenars. I think in the sense of practical competition, making first round hits on a target at unknown distance, using your ranging abilities. Which might be why i'm thrown off with his suggestion. I felt if the rifle could hold MOA or better at 100 it could do the same at 600+. As for the 20 shot 1/2 MOA group i don't think i have that ability lol. Thats some crazy stuff, and i doubt my ability to retain 20 shots within a inch group. Will see if i can tighten up these 155s because honestly my 5R shoots them pretty damn well for having such a fast twist rate.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

As mention above, 600 yards is midrange.

I shoot F-TR 600 yards. While the interwebz say the 168 is a 300 yard bullet, those who use it would disagree. It works well to 600, beyond in my opinion.

I use the 168 Amax, in an F-class rifle the recoil is a nit. If you use 155's for other tasks I'd suggest you stay with them as its more time using the same round rather than trying to remember what rounds does what with the wind your shooting in.

Now of late the 223 is really shining at 600. Many shooters are using it in their boltguns with great success. If I was starting over, and just a paper killer, I might use the 223 for Midrange F-TR. However I use one load for everything so its the 168 Amax for hunting and target shooting.

Good luck

 

[MALLARD]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

if the rifle could hold MOA or better at 100 it could do the same at 600 is unfortunately not the case , variations in BC SD/ES , things like that will make your 1 moa at 100 be 1.5 or more at 600y. ( unless your shooting 20 shot 1 moa groups at 100y , then it might be 1 moa at 600y , might.)

.223 at 600y ? on a very windy day with winds going both directions 10-15 mph or faster ? ha , good luck.

 

[kyreloader]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MALLARD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if the rifle could hold MOA or better at 100 it could do the same at 600 is unfortunately not the case , variations in BC SD/ES , things like that will make your 1 moa at 100 be 1.5 or more at 600y. ( unless your shooting 20 shot 1 moa groups at 100y , then it might be 1 moa at 600y , might.)

.223 at 600y ? on a very windy day with winds going both directions 10-15 mph or faster ? ha , good luck. </div></div>

.223 with 80g VLD at 2800 fps, .308 with 155.5g Fullbore at 2900 fps, .308 with 185g BT at 2600 fps results with 100 yard zero to 600 yards.

80g - 14.3 MOA up/5.1 MOA drift
155.5-12.9 MOA up/4.6 MOA drift
185g -15.5 MOA up/4.3 MOA drift

Sure doesnt seem like a huge handicap for the .223, especially considering less recoil with that chambering.

Just for comparison, my .284 Shehane with 180g Hybrids at 2950 fps.

180- 10.9 MOA up/ 2.9 MOA drift

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

In <span style="font-style: italic">Applied Ballistics,</span> Litz notes that the 168-gr SMK "has a unique dynamic instability that prevents it from flying properly at long range. The bullet provides excellent performance at short ranges, up to 600 yards."

 

[5RWill]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

I guess i'm going to continue grouping. Can't hurt to try some 168gr VLDs or SMKs, and maybe a box of 175gr SMKs. But if i can work up a 10 shot 1/2 MOA group with the 155gr or 5 shot 1 little hole. I'm taking it. But i imagine i'll see tighter groups the heavier i go at least until 175gr and beyond.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

I would pick whichever bullet shot the best (i.e.-tightest groups) and gave me the lowest extreme spread numbers. I would test the round further than 100 yards (300, or even 600 yards on a calm day). Often times the load that shoots the best at 100 is not the best load for longer ranges. In F-class, bullet drop is not a high priority. Beating and minimizing the wind effect is. I would lean to higher BC bullets and slower, more consistant speeds. A 175 SMK is not bad. A 190 SMK is even better. But if a 168 SMK shoots lights out and gives low ES numbers, then run with it. Just don't shoot it for 800, 900, or 1K shooting. 600 yards is about where the lighter, faster, lower BC bullets break even with the heavier, slower, higher BC bullets. It just depends on how fast you can push the given round compared to the next.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would pick whichever bullet shot the best (i.e.-tightest groups) and gave me the lowest extreme spread numbers. I would test the round further than 100 yards (300, or even 600 yards on a calm day). Often times the load that shoots the best at 100 is not the best load for longer ranges. In F-class, bullet drop is not a high priority. Beating and minimizing the wind effect is. I would lean to higher BC bullets and slower, more consistant speeds. A 175 SMK is not bad. A 190 SMK is even better. But if a 168 SMK shoots lights out and gives low ES numbers, then run with it. Just don't shoot it for 800, 900, or 1K shooting. 600 yards is about where the lighter, faster, lower BC bullets break even with the heavier, slower, higher BC bullets. It just depends on how fast you can push the given round compared to the next. </div></div>

I'm going to give em all try as soon as i can order some. I am going to switch primers first and foremost on my loads to CCI BR2s or FGM 210. That and a little tighter prep work should decrease vertical stringing, give me a much more consistent MV, and over all i believe a little tighter group. I might even go down a grain of powder. One of the loads on 6mmbr.com was Zak Smith's 45.2gr of varget with 155gr scenars. I'm shooting 46 and getting sub MOA results, but i imagine if i went down a grain it would shrink a little also. When it all comes down to it i'm working my way up to 1000yds, but this is what the rifle was intended for in the first place. So i do want to run 155gr scenars or anything with a high BC to help my chances.

Typing in the ballistic calculator the 175 SMK going 2753fps is only 50fps slower than the 155gr @ 2830 at a distance of 1000yds. Both don't go subsonic till 1300yds. Pretty impressive, i didn't know the 175gr would do that well at that distance. I imagine they'll shoot well through my 5R with the 11.25 twist rate. I might try the 175 SMKs first. I've ran black hills 168gr through my gun and they shot sub MOA but not as well as my 155gr scenars.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

When you get to 1K, it's all about beating the wind and low ES numbers. So higher BC will always look better for beating the wind. A 175 SMK will do the trick. But a higher BC bullet will give you less wind drift. A 190 SMK may be running slower, but the higher BC will allow less wind drift. I know guys running a 208 A-max at 2500+ fps for 1K, and shooting tight groups!

 

[5RWill]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you get to 1K, it's all about beating the wind and low ES numbers. So higher BC will always look better for beating the wind. A 175 SMK will do the trick. But a higher BC bullet will give you less wind drift. A 190 SMK may be running slower, but the higher BC will allow less wind drift. I know guys running a 208 A-max at 2500+ fps for 1K, and shooting tight groups! </div></div>

I'll take a look at both then. But here is my reasoning for wanting to keep the 155gr. Sure these loads i have right now have a good bit of vertical stringing in them because they're inconsistent. I figured i need to get rid of em so i can start over again. So today i shot at 300yds. I looked up the weather and it said 17mph wind gust. So the far ones to the right are my first 4 or 5 shots out of a clean bore with 9/10s mil windage. I have no windmeter lol. So i drove downfield looked at them and backed off 4/10s. So at 5/10s mil windage i shot my last 4 shots. And on the last 3 i must have caught the wind being constant because man for me or to me thats a hell of a 300 yd group. I swear if i can just get a consistent muzzle velocity i think i'm going to have to stick with these little bullets. Sure i still want to try the heavier ones now but my gun even though a fast twist rate loves these things. I'm guessing the reason it stabilizes well in a fast twist rate is due to the length of the bullet. It's a bit of a slender/long bullet for a .30 cal. Anyway here is the group.

 

[Leaddog]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

I also have a 5R and I can tell you that the rifle likes 175 SMK's the best. Forget the 155's. Your twist is not optimal. Been there done that

I'm assuming you have the Mil-spec Remy 5R with a 11 1/4 twist and a 24" barrel? Load the 175's at about 2650fps and have some fun.

Btw... if your loads are consistent, vertical stringing on a target is you. Horizontal is the wind.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leaddog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also have a 5R and I can tell you that the rifle likes 175 SMK's the best. Forget the 155's. Your twist is not optimal. Been there done that

I'm assuming you have the Mil-spec Remy 5R with a 11 1/4 twist and a 24" barrel? Load the 175's at about 2650fps and have some fun.

Btw... if your loads are consistent, vertical stringing on a target is you. Horizontal is the wind.</div></div>

Yeah i realize it's me on occasions but in this case i've chronographed these loads and i got jumps ranging from 20fps to 122fps. So i'm putting my money on the loads, not saying that i'm not a factor but i've now shot at 100, 200, and 300 and i get vertical stringing. Thats why i've got to tighten up my tolerances and i'm going to switch to a different primers. I'm currently using winchester magnum primers. Even if the rifle will stack 155s you still think i should switch to 175 SMKs? Don't get me wrong i'm going to pick some up just because i want to see but the 155s are holding a 1/2 MOA group at 100yds with loads that are ranging on a 100fps difference at times. By all means i'm going to go with whatever shoots the best, but now being that i don't have 175 SMKs and i feel i could improve the 155gr loads i've got, i'm going to try it at least.

 

[Leaddog]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

You have a 100+fps difference in your loads? You might want to review the information that Tresmon posted about reloading. You would do well to tighten your ES to less than 20fps and your SD to single digits if you want to find your accuracy.

Those 155's are not going to cut it in your barrel. Go with a slower load in a 175. Powder Valley is a good place to get them.

155's are generally what Palma guys use in 13 twist 30 in. barrels.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leaddog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have a 100+fps difference in your loads? You might want to review the information that Tresmon posted about reloading. You would do well to tighten your ES to less than 20fps and your SD to single digits if you want to find your accuracy.

Those 155's are not going to cut it in your barrel. Go with a slower load in a 175. Powder Valley is a good place to get them.

155's are generally what Palma guys use in 13 twist 30 in. barrels.</div></div>

As i've said i'm getting rid of my current loads to tighten up my specs and give it another try. Going to buy some 175 SMKs as soon as i can. I did read tresmon's stickies they were very helpful, i haven't gotten along to reloading another batch yet so i haven't been able to apply them. I realize the barrel twist isn't meant for 155s but if they shoot 1/2 MOA does it matter? Or are you saying that the twist will lead to a decrease in accuracy downrange? Not trying to argue or sound stubborn just wondering.

 

[Leaddog]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leaddog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have a 100+fps difference in your loads? You might want to review the information that Tresmon posted about reloading. You would do well to tighten your ES to less than 20fps and your SD to single digits if you want to find your accuracy.

Those 155's are not going to cut it in your barrel. Go with a slower load in a 175. Powder Valley is a good place to get them.

155's are generally what Palma guys use in 13 twist 30 in. barrels.</div></div>

I realize the barrel twist isn't meant for 155s but if they shoot 1/2 MOA does it matter? Or are you saying that the twist will lead to a decrease in accuracy downrange? Not trying to argue or sound stubborn just wondering. </div></div>

Yes, it matters. If your ES is over 100, there is no way you are going to shoot sub MOA at 600 and especially at 1000 with any load. Your reloading consistency is decreasing your downrange accuracy. Work on that.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leaddog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes, it matters. If your ES is over 100, there is no way you are going to shoot sub MOA at 600 and especially at 1000 with any load. Your reloading consistency is decreasing your downrange accuracy. Work on that.</div></div>

Whats ES? Sorry not very good with acronyms. Anyway thats what i'm working on. I'm planning on changing to CCI BR-2s or Fed. 210m primers and a little more prep work on the brass itself and i should lose the vertical stringing possibly shrink groups even more. I feel the winchester magnum primers are contributing to the vertical stringing a little. Going to try that until i get some 175s in.

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you get to 1K, it's all about beating the wind and low ES numbers. So higher BC will always look better for beating the wind. A 175 SMK will do the trick. But a higher BC bullet will give you less wind drift. A 190 SMK may be running slower, but the higher BC will allow less wind drift. I know guys running a 208 A-max at 2500+ fps for 1K, and shooting tight groups! </div></div>

I'll take a look at both then. But here is my reasoning for wanting to keep the 155gr. Sure these loads i have right now have a good bit of vertical stringing in them because they're inconsistent. I figured i need to get rid of em so i can start over again. So today i shot at 300yds. I looked up the weather and it said 17mph wind gust. So the far ones to the right are my first 4 or 5 shots out of a clean bore with 9/10s mil windage. I have no windmeter lol. So i drove downfield looked at them and backed off 4/10s. So at 5/10s mil windage i shot my last 4 shots. And on the last 3 i must have caught the wind being constant because man for me or to me thats a hell of a 300 yd group. I swear if i can just get a consistent muzzle velocity i think i'm going to have to stick with these little bullets. Sure i still want to try the heavier ones now but my gun even though a fast twist rate loves these things. I'm guessing the reason it stabilizes well in a fast twist rate is due to the length of the bullet. It's a bit of a slender/long bullet for a .30 cal. Anyway here is the group.

</div></div>I'm shooting 155 Scenars out of a custom Remington 700, 24" Rock 5R using 44.2 gns Varget gives me 2754 fps. The groups at 100 yds are not as good as 175 SMK's but at 600 yds the 155 Scenar is definitely better.

 

[Leaddog]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leaddog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes, it matters. If your ES is over 100, there is no way you are going to shoot sub MOA at 600 and especially at 1000 with any load. Your reloading inconsistency is decreasing your downrange accuracy. Work on that.</div></div>

Whats ES? Sorry not very good with acronyms. Anyway thats what i'm working on. I'm planning on changing to CCI BR-2s or Fed. 210m primers and a little more prep work on the brass itself and i should lose the vertical stringing possibly shrink groups even more. I feel the winchester magnum primers are contributing to the vertical stringing a little. Going to try that until i get some 175s in. </div></div>

ES is extreme spread. That's the high and low of your chronoed fps, preferably over at least 20 rounds.

BR-2's and 210M's are good primers and I use them interchangeably with Varget powder. Reloader 15 is also a good .308 powder. The verticals are usually the shooter unless you are shooting in a let up/pickup of a direct headwind/tailwind of some strength.

Let's talk MOA. At 600 yards, 1 MOA is roughly 6 inches. To shoot less than 1 MOA on a F Class Target at 600 you would clean the target. A worthy goal, but not usually realistic because of conditions. At 1000, more challenging.

If you can find a local mentor to help you with marksmanship, reloading, wind/mirage reading, equipment, and gear, you could do well as you certainly have a good attitude and willingness to learn. Good luck.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

Thanks for the input. A friend of my fathers is teaching me to reload, I've been at it off and on for about 3 years. He isn't as nit picky as me and doesn't really care for shooting at extreme ranges but he loves to reload and shoot. My gunsmith also offered to help and he is going to be the one taking me to the competitions. I know a most of the basics but still have much to learn. Hell I just realized tonight I need to put in different drag models for different bullets in the ballistic calculator. Before I really looked into the 175gr SMKs I was dead set on the 155gr scenars because of the BC and I could push them faster than the heavier bullets. Definitely going to try the 175gr SMKs or the berger 175gr HPBT (.515 BC) but I've read berger bullets are finicky with accuracy. Well see how it goes, thanks for all the input. I'm replacing my barrel with in the year to a bartelin M24/M40 contour 5R, haven't decided on the twist yet. Although I'm happy about going to shoot at the competition I think I like practical long range shooting more. Not necessarily concerned on the tightest groups but making hits on steel targets at unknown distances with a rangefinder and rifle data. There is no where around here to do that though.

Gvanhyning out of curiosity what contour is your Rock Creek?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leaddog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes, it matters. If your ES is over 100, there is no way you are going to shoot sub MOA at 600 and especially at 1000 with any load. Your reloading consistency is decreasing your downrange accuracy. Work on that.</div></div>

Whats ES? Sorry not very good with acronyms. Anyway thats what i'm working on. I'm planning on changing to CCI BR-2s or Fed. 210m primers and a little more prep work on the brass itself and i should lose the vertical stringing possibly shrink groups even more. I feel the winchester magnum primers are contributing to the vertical stringing a little. Going to try that until i get some 175s in.</div></div>

Stop! Find a mentor in your area, someone with LR shooting credentials, who can get you off to a better start with both handloading and marksmanship. Right now, you appear to be drowning, and in need of someone who can throw you a rope, since learning how to swim on your own is not keeping your head above water.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

Well i don't feel that inexperienced. As i've said i have 2 great mentors one that has been teaching me. And the gunsmith, while he is stubborn and likes to do it his way, he is still helpful in getting info on how he preps his brass and stuff for competitions. He won one with his 6mm dasher 1000yd F-class i just can't remember what the name of the place/tournament was. I'm decently experienced in shooting and reloading and am learning more, as there is always room for improvement. But this will be my first time shooting competition.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well i don't feel that inexperienced. As i've said i have 2 great mentors one that has been teaching me. And the gunsmith, while he is stubborn and likes to do it his way, he is still helpful in getting info on how he preps his brass and stuff for competitions. He won one with his 6mm dasher 1000yd F-class i just can't remember what the name of the place/tournament was. I'm decently experienced in shooting and reloading and am learning more, as there is always room for improvement. But this will be my first time shooting competition.</div></div>

Not comprehending the terms used in describing essential concepts of measuring hand-load performance reveals you don't have the sort of knowledge that matters. Choose a coach who is more than 15 minutes ahead of you in the game. And, here's another tip, since bulls-eyes are round, holding elevation can help you get points which would otherwise be lost to wind not countered. Holding elevation for LR is therefore as much about a low ES and SD as it is you describing yourself as " decently experienced."

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

Black-
What Sterling said. Experience is a funny thing. A man can shoot for 30 years but it can be the first 3 years worth of knowledge repeated 10 times.

As pointed out, you dont understand the simple terms most competitive shooters know by heart.

I shoot 600 yard F-TR. It is what I do. It is what I like. With a 308, 600 yards is a challenge compared to 1000 where it is a PITA!

If you can get the 155 skinneys consistent in velocity they are excellent 600 yard bullets. Rule of thumb on what rifle likes them is any rifle that can handle the 175Amax can handle them as well. (It is length of bullet not wieght that counts when discussing twist rate, comparing the skinney to the older Palma bullet is apples to oranges)

You dont need the 175 bullets for 600 yards, the 168Amax is about as heavy as you need go if the skinneys dont settle down for you. (I dont use the skinney as I found it tempermental but a change of charge wieght or a light crimp has improved performance for others)

I would never recommend the older SMK series over the Amax equiv.

It really isnt rocket science but an experienced F-TR shooter is what you need. There is a WORLD of difference between the 6 dasher and the 308. Trust me...LOL

Oh as an aside- the heavier 223 bullets in the proper twist SMOKE. I shoot against too many of them to snicker if the wind gets up as the 308 aint a laser!

In Pennsylviania I attended a 600 match where I was the ONLY 308 gunner. Those 223 boys were cooking it.

Oh one fact I guess the 223 naysayers dont know is most matches start early in the morning so wind isnt as big a factor as it is to those who cant make it to the range before lunch.

Course then again a 15 year old girl shot her tricked out 5.56 AR to 1000 yards in a bitch wind and outshot alot of us who had scopes and 'better' bullet choices.

The brat

 

[holdoff]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

I shoot F-TR, both 300m and 600yds. Bullet selection is very simple. Shoot the most accurate bullet. We all want to exploit optimal b.c. but if a particular bullet is proven to shoot better in your rifle, that is the one to use.

My hammer load right now is a 155 scenar/45.2 Varget/Wolf LRM/Lapua brass. Through a factory 1990's era REM700 PSS 1-10 twist. It groups the best, however it may certainly lose on a drift table compared to other "accepted" loads.

I realize that convension says that 1-10 is to fast, and that at 2735fps my load is pokey compared to those shooting this bullet is a field match, but the load is scary accurate and consistent.

That is what will win in F-TR.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

F-class isn't exactly what my rifle was intended for. It was more for practical long range shooting but, the gunsmith asked me to bring my .308 and we could shoot it out to 600yds, so i figured i would. Would i like to win yes, am i that worried about it, not necessarily. It's more about gaining time behind the trigger and meeting more shooters. Sorry if i came off as arrogant i didn't mean it that way. I guess experience goes only as far as your mentor. The gunsmith is hard headed but he does shoot competition all year around and knows a good bit. There is one more person that i don't know personally but he shoots palma matches could probably give him a call also. Thanks for the advice much appreciated.

 

[holdoff]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

Blackops,

Going out and doing it is the best way. Let everyone know you are new to the sport and I will gaurantee that you will be overwhelmed with the amount of assistance more experienced shooters will provide.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: holdoff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blackops,

Going out and doing it is the best way. Let everyone know you are new to the sport and I will gaurantee that you will be overwhelmed with the amount of assistance more experienced shooters will provide.
</div></div>

Thats what my gunsmith told me. He said everyone is more than happy to help. He said of course there wont be anyone there my age, but generally i like older people and don't get along with people my age. I gotta wait for the next shooting and i'm going to go. Still gotta find time to reload some more. I got 2 test coming up a practical and some other crap. Like i said in another thread, the art of shooting is definitely an older aged tier sport. It's freaking hard to do at 20 lol.

 

[Leaddog]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It's freaking hard to do at 20 lol.</div></div>

No, it isn't. There are plenty of 11 Bravo guys your age that are getting it done.

First off... find another mentor than your gunsmith. He sounds opinionated and out of touch. Get with someone who will really help you instead of throwing advice at you.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Bullet selection for 600yd F class .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leaddog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It's freaking hard to do at 20 lol.</div></div>

No, it isn't. There are plenty of 11 Bravo guys your age that are getting it done.

First off... find another mentor than your gunsmith. He sounds opinionated and out of touch. Get with someone who will really help you instead of throwing advice at you.</div></div>

I only got one other person in mind. He shoots palma matches i imagine he would offer to help. I would like to know how those guys do it. Now about to be a junior in college, which takes of most of my time, and course loads getting harder, i'm running shorter and shorter on time. Still got winter holidays and spring break though, definitely will be trying to get most of my shooting done then.


On a side note again thanks for all the advise guys, i'll let everyone know how it goes. And post some range reports of some heavier bullets, and if i run into any problems wont hesitate to ask.