Bumped headspace to far by a few though.

[AussieShooter]

I previously purchased used brass.

After setting up my redding FL die and running them through some are within tolerance using the Wilson gauge and others are out bellow the minimum by an extra 0.001" - 0.002".

Can the brass slightly bellow the minimum of the gauge be used or is this a definite NO NO?

I'm using a mitutoyo 0.001" depth mic to measure the headspace depth in the gauge.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

I previously purchased used brass.

After setting up my redding FL die and running them through some are within tolerance using the Wilson gauge and others are out bellow the minimum by an extra 0.001" - 0.002".

Can the brass slightly bellow the minimum of the gauge be used or is this a definite NO NO?

I'm using a mitutoyo 0.001" depth mic to measure the headspace depth in the gauge.

It's not ideal and you'll get a bit more stretching, but that shouldn't be dangerous, unless you already went .005" down, from a fired case.

Chris

 

[AussieShooter]

Hi Chris,

I might not have explained myself properly.

The brass was fired before I ever recieved it and from what I understand brass expands and contracts.
So if I fired the brass with the extra few though it can't contract without first expanding unless at a very low temp. Does this sound about right?

The gauge has a 0.005" recess (a step if you will) from the top of the gauge to the bottom of the gauge.

I put the bar of the mic across the high point ( max) of the gauge and dial down till the gauge rod touches the head.

From this I'm getting between 0.000" to 0.007".

If the gauge is above 0.005" (case head min) I have seperated them into a seperate pile for further work to be done if possible to shrink that extra 0.001-2" (which I don't think is possible) or if safe to use use them.

 

[AussieShooter]

I should have mentioned that I'm using the top of the gauge as the datum.

So in effect the measurement readings I'm getting are 0.000" (max) down to 0.005" (min) then further down another 0.001" (0.006") or 0.002 (0.007").

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Hi Chris,

I might not have explained myself properly.

I thought you were talking about bumping your shoulders back (headspace) a few thousandths of an inch farther, than you initially wanted?

What are you actually measuring, when you talk about headspace, as I'm having a hard time visualizing your 'gage' and how you're using it?

The brass was fired before I ever received it and from what I understand brass expands and contracts.
So if I fired the brass with the extra few though it can't contract without first expanding unless at a very low temp. Does this sound about right?

Brass does expand and contract, but parts of a case may expand and contract at different rates and not be linear. M.L McPherson describes this phenonemon as being a big culprit in 'runout'. Also, as brass work hardens, it might lose some of that elasticity and things won't return to zero, so to speak.

The gauge has a 0.005" recess (a step if you will) from the top of the gauge to the bottom of the gauge.

I put the bar of the mic across the high point ( max) of the gauge and dial down till the gauge rod touches the head.

From this I'm getting between 0.000" to 0.007".

If the gauge is above 0.005" (case head min) I have separated them into a separate pile for further work to be done if possible to shrink that extra 0.001-2" (which I don't think is possible) or if safe to use use them.

It almost sounds as if you're measuring case head expansion, which is leading to the my confusion, even today.

Do you have any pictures of how you're measuring and what?

And:

I should have mentioned that I'm using the top of the gauge as the datum.

The datum line on a case, is generally halfway up the shoulder proper (when we're talking about headspacing a case/cartridge, at least) and for the case head, it's referenced at a X point in inches/mm, above the extractor groove, or the case head's face/bottom, on some of the prints I've seen.

So in effect the measurement readings I'm getting are 0.000" (max) down to 0.005" (min) then further down another 0.001" (0.006") or 0.002 (0.007").

Unless somebody else can figure out what you're describing, post a picture if you can? You can upload them from your PC now, IIRC.

Good luck, Chris

 

[4Quangs]

I should have mentioned that I'm using the top of the gauge as the datum.

So in effect the measurement readings I'm getting are 0.000" (max) down to 0.005" (min) then further down another 0.001" (0.006") or 0.002 (0.007").

You'll likely be fine unless your chamber's headspace is too long and the brass isn't truly 'once fired'. Case separation just above the web is caused by excessive or repeated stretching; short headspace brass that has already been stressed by repeated firings or by being shot in a long chamber is susceptible to separation.

Keep in eye on the brass as you shoot it; if you see signs of separation or distortion near the case web, then reconsider your options. Most case separations are harmless when shot with a bolt gun, but a case remnant will really hose the next round fed in a semi-auto gas gun.

 

[AussieShooter]

I am definitely referring to headspace not the expansion of the diameter of the case.

Pics should be added as I am using a smart phone.

The pics show the case head protruding from the gauge.
The gauge its self has an internal shoulder so that the gauge replicates that specific calibres chamber.

 

[insight3b]

Aussiesooter,
You'll be fine. Its interesting to see that each and every factory loaded round of ammunition that I have dropped into my wilson case gage(like yours) will fall to rest at about the same point as the case in your picture...if you have any factory ammo around drop one in and check it out for reference

 

[pmclaine]

Case gauges such as yours are a quicky check but I was frustrated that it doesnt give real numbers.

When you get some money saved up buy an RCBS headspace micrometer or the Hornady Headspace gauge set will allow you to reliably measure bump. Great tools. The RCBS is specific to each cartridge the Hornady kit will provide bushings for a variety of cartridges.

 

[AussieShooter]

* Update.

So I purchased a hornady headspace gauge.

When comparing the case measurements with the Wilson case gauge the brass has been shortened too much.

LE Wilson on YouTube states to use a depth mic.
I did this and made sure the head of the case was between max and min on the gauge. The depth mic was calibrated on glass making sure it was calibrated correct. Using one of the cases I have had pushed back using the Wilson case gauge (0.001" from max headspace) I measure a headspace of 1.625" (min is 1.630") in the hornady headspace gauge.

Comparing a case that was measured the same way as above with the Wilson Case gauge where the head in the gauge is at the minimum (0.005" from max headspace) I get a measurement of 1.6195".

The gauge claims to measure off the shoulder so that it is not measured from the mouth (so not OAL).

I also put the case gauge ontop of a vice so that when measuring using the depth mic the protruding neck would not push back the head in the gauge giving an incorrect measurement.

Am I missing something here or is the Wilson headspace case gauge not living up to claims?

 

[buffybuster]

Seems like you're comparing the headspace measurements against a rather arbitrary minimum specification. IMO you should be comparing it against your actual chamber, by measuring an unsized, deprimed fired case, as your "Zero". Shooting brass that is 0.008-0.010" under your headspace isn't dangerous in a boltgun, but you might experience head separation or your brass life will definitely be shortened.

 

[milo 2.0]

I wouldn't worry about it either, the worst that can happen is case head separation, and you can monitor that. Just adjust your dies so you don't continually do this.
I have one new gun that brass grows .008" on the first firing, by safety measures, I really should have never taken the first shot, but that would have been my loss, it shoots! Licking my chops right now, getting ready to utilize that extra case capacity.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

* Am I missing something here or is the Wilson headspace case gauge not living up to claims?

I'll try to help. Look at the Wilson gauge as a "spec" gauge, which means it is an average for chambering the cartridge you are loading. It only has one "size" and not a "range" so if you are going to use it to size your brass then when you place a reworked piece into the gauge the case head should be flush with the bottom of the gauge. If it protrudes, you case is "too long" and if it indents it is "too short" and that's how you use that type of gauge. It's a "go" or "no go" gauge in effect. Now in reality a case could be longer or shorter than the dimensions of the Wilson gauge and still be acceptable but you need other methods (as have been mentioned) to ensure safety and performance. In addition, the dimensions of your rifles chamber are very most likely not in precise relation to the "average" dimensions measure by the Wilson gauge. That is why tools such as a chamber/case micrometer or headspace gauge are preferred over the Wilson type of case gauge. I would recommend the thorough review of a reloading manual to gain a better understanding of "headspace dimensions" and how to resize your fired brass. From your pics, yes your brass has been oversized but as you have learned you cannot really tell by how much (my guess is a couple of thousands?)

 

[bobaguilar]

The guage is a great tool, but what matters is how it fits in your actual chamber. When setting up my sizing die on a Rem 700 I remove the firing pin and ejector to check when the shoulder
actually gets bumped back. I start with the die set long then turn is 1/4 turn at a time until the bolt handle drops without any resistance. I hope this is helpful.

 

[waste_knot]

The Hornady gage tends to read undersize unless you calibrate it with a actual 1.630 headspace chamber "GO" gage. The Hornady is meant to measure a case fired in your chamber and then set your dies to produce cases a couple of thou under. Have you fired any of this brass in your chamber either before of after resizing?

 

[AussieShooter]

I'm a little confused (happens all the time). Wilson gauge (for bottle neck cartridges) measures from the datum line of shoulder and has a high step and low step. These are saami spec'ed min and max cartridge headspace. SAAMI also has a standard for chamber headspace w/ a min and max. The Wilson gauge will tell you whether your cartridge is within thier spec (head at or between the high / low step and mouth within the high / low step, but that's not telling you anything about cartridge headspace as compared to your rifle chamber. Using your depth gauge, you can use the Wilson gauge to determine chamber dimension by measuring fired brass. Both the low and high steps are saami know measurements.

Let's say your sized brass is measuring 0.002 shorter than the low step. If your rifle chamber is set to min saami headspace, then that would be about perfect. If your rifle is headspaced to max spec, then you'd have excessive head clearance. Most likely, you're somewhere between those extremes.

Assuming you're brass is sized with excessive head clearance, you could seat the bullet long into the rifling to help reduce the case stretching on firing (at least at web). Reduce your charge a little when doing this.

This is what I want.
The cases are all once fired in someone elses bolt gun.
Once I have SAMMI spec I will fire them once more and the brass should be fire formed.

I do not want several case head seperations in my rifle as from what I have read they can effect precesion over time.
My rifle is customised through a smith and not cheap.

.

I think I understand what you mean regarding seating the projectile further in order to have the same COAL.

However using SMK 175's and powder do achieve this is a waste for a gauge that should be within SAMMI spec in the first place.

Everthing here in Aus is usually atleast double. Brass (Lapua) sits around $80.00 a box (100) and SMKs $57.00 (100).

 

[AussieShooter]

Seems like you're comparing the headspace measurements against a rather arbitrary minimum specification. IMO you should be comparing it against your actual chamber, by measuring an unsized, deprimed fired case, as your "Zero". Shooting brass that is 0.008-0.010" under your headspace isn't dangerous in a boltgun, but you might experience head separation or your brass life will definitely be shortened.

Seems like you're comparing the headspace measurements against a rather arbitrary minimum specification.

Please explain how using the headspace gauge for SAMMI min with the datum of measurement being with relation to the head is arbitrary?

It is measuring the same values but a different way.

The shoulder should rest inside the gauge, the head should be flush with the HIGH point of the gauge for SAMMI max and the head should be flush with the LOW point of the gauge for SAMMI min.
It is not doing this.

 

[AussieShooter]

The Hornady gage tends to read undersize unless you calibrate it with a actual 1.630 headspace chamber "GO" gage. The Hornady is meant to measure a case fired in your chamber and then set your dies to produce cases a couple of thou under. Have you fired any of this brass in your chamber either before of after resizing?

I re-zero the hornady gauge before I measure the headspace.

I have not fired the brass yet in my rifle.

I was concerned that if the headspace wasnt within SAMMI spec I might cop a bolt in the eye as a worst case scenario

 

[AussieShooter]

I am frustrated as I had total faith in the gauge and resized 279 pieces of Lapua brass using the micrometre and gauge (time consuming would be an understatement).

Now only to find out the brass that was supposed to be within SAMMI spec isnt.

 

[pmclaine]

I may not be understanding the benefits of being really "anal" with my reloading tolerances as I do not shoot bench rest.

Take no offense but to me you are looking for something I do not understand.

The way I use the Hornady gauge is that I

1. zero the gauge on my mic

2. measure a piece of fire formed brass - say it reads 2.25.

3. Set up the die so that after sizing
Bolt gun = 2.24-2.23 (+/- .001-.002) or just neck size and leave the shoulder fire formed
Semi auto = 2.22-2.21 (+/- .003-.005)

4. Best practice is to size a different peice of brass each time you adjust your die to meet your goal as a second squeeze will not represent true results.

Regards sizing brand new brass. I've never had the pleasure of using brand new brass. My inclination would be to make a dummy to check neck tension and that it will chamber in my rifle. If it does I'd load them up and fire form. On the second loading they become precision ammo and Id neck size or full length size to meet bolt or semi needs as required.

I load 30-06 and I fire it through three different rifles - two bolts and one semi. I don't make specific ammo for specific guns. I cheat the semi spec as close as I can to the .003 set back and it works fine in my bolt and semi guns.

Note/disclaimer - my reloading experience is only two years please correct me if I am passing bad info.

In your case with brass fired in a different rifle I assume it is blown out to the chamber of the rifle that fired it. If the rifle was in good condition I assume the chamber was within SAAMI spec. Id size as mentioned for a bolt or semi, make the dummy to ensure it chambers in your gun, load em up, fireform, than look for precision using your Hornady headspace gauge to tailor them to your rifle.

 

[FLIGHT762]

Just shoot your resized brass in your rifle and then measure the shoulders of the fired brass from your rifle using your Hornady gauge. Take that measurement number and reset your F/L die to bump the shoulders back only .001"-.002" from that measurement. It's that easy. You're making this way too complicated for yourself. You're not going to get a face full of brass from your initially resized brass. From the Wilson gauge minimum step photo, you'll be fine.

I have a rifle that has to be F/L sized down to the minimum step in a Wilson style gauge because that's where my fired cases will measure to. You will be able to measure better and see the numbers on your caliper using the Hornady gauge. My Hornady .400 gauge insert measures 1.611" off of the shoulder of a .308 Winchester 1.630" go gauge. With that Hornady gauge, my fired cases measure 1.613"-14". I set my F/L die to bump back to 1.612".

Just use the Hornady gauge to measure the fired brass from your rifle's chamber and set the die to resize from there.

 

[Ultraman550]

I use this because it allows you to use a case that has been fire formed to your chamber dimensions along with the bullet you are going to shoot.

Sinclair Bullet Seating Depth Tool | Sinclair Intl

That picture you have of the case head is literally a gnats dick hair below the minimum SAMMI spec line so you're fine. Go shoot your rounds and measure off of your fired case, not what SAMMI specs are.

 

[AussieShooter]

I may not be understanding the benefits of being really "anal" with my reloading tolerances as I do not shoot bench rest.

Take no offense but to me you are looking for something I do not understand.

The way I use the Hornady gauge is that I

1. zero the gauge on my mic

2. measure a piece of fire formed brass - say it reads 2.25.

3. Set up the die so that after sizing
Bolt gun = 2.24-2.23 (+/- .001-.002) or just neck size and leave the shoulder fire formed
Semi auto = 2.22-2.21 (+/- .003-.005)

4. Best practice is to size a different peice of brass each time you adjust your die to meet your goal as a second squeeze will not represent true results.

This would have been my method had I have had the Hornady headspace gauge from the get go and resizing the brass to SAMMI spec so that the cases would be within that tolerance. I would then have reloaded and seated accordingly.

Instead I had the Wilson case gauge and soley relied on that to resize my brass.

Comparing the Wilson case gauge ("go / no go") to the Hornady all my brass is now bellow SAMMI spec.

Now as to my next question.

Although the headspace is outside of SAMMI spec do I reload so that the cases with projectiles are within COAL and fire them knowing accuracy will be all over the place when I shoot out to 1000m with the expectation that all the cases used will be fire formed OR may it take several firings for the cases to be fire formed?

 

[AussieShooter]

Guys I think something may have been overlooked.

These cases have not been fired in my gun. They have all been purchased once fired through someone elses which I purchased second hand.

 

[pmclaine]

They are a little oversized. They will certainly fit in your chamber. Load them up and use them as practice ammo. They will form to your chamber and you can than employ your Hornady headspace gauge and get back to square one for loading match ammo.

Because these had been fired by another rifle you would have had to "oversize" and fire form to your chamber anyway. I don't think they were match ammo from the get go unless you had some good data already to use. Im assuming they came from a gun in good condition sizing them now to either the bolt/semi auto spec as necessary should allow them to fit in your gun.

Use your rifles chamber as the spec not SAAMI. So after you fire form them just size the required amount from their fired condition to size for your chamber.

This assumes your rifle headspace is correct. I think it has been stated that your cases are below SAAMI by a red CH. I don't think you will significantly decrease case life but you should be bending a paper clip and checking for signs of head separation before the next reload anyway.

I have a Dillon case gauge that is similar to your Wilson. They are more useful for pistol ammo as I only use them to quick check if my ammo will (should) chamber when Im to lazy to pull my gun apart and use the chamber. I use my Dillon 30-06 case gauge only as a quick check for chambering also. I use the RCBS headspace mic and Hornady headspace gauges to set up my size die using real numbers.

Your good to go just really thinking about this which means your respectful of what is going on and paying attention.

 

[AussieShooter]

Thanks for that guys.

To proceed further I am considering making my necks all the same length then loading them up to all the same COAL and fire form.

What should I be using to measure the neck length with respect to the shoulder (I have lost faith in the Wilson Case Gauge)?

Again I want to try and make those measurements as uniform as possible

 

[M40_A1]

Aussie, if you're concerned about the cases you sized, go buy some factory ammo to fireform so you have a reference for what your rifles headspace is. Frankly, I think you'd be fine firing what you have, but I don't know for a fact how your chamber was cut.

 

[AussieShooter]

Aussie, if you're concerned about the cases you sized, go buy some factory ammo to fireform so you have a reference for what your rifles headspace is. Frankly, I think you'd be fine firing what you have, but I don't know for a fact how your chamber was cut.

That sounds like a great idea. Ill do that.