Hello: I am thinking about buying a set of 7mm-08 dies from Whidden Gunworks and his sizing dies are either bushing or non-bushing. Is there an advantage of one over the other?
Bushing vs. non-Bushing sizing die
- Thread starter greggrissom
- Start date
The bushing style dies use interchangeable neck bushings so that you can control how much neck tension you have. I only use bushing style dies! Using bushings you can custom tailor your ammo to whether you are turning your necks or using sloppy factory brass and only sizes the brass as much as you want. Most non bushing dies grossly over size the brass and you end up work hardning the necks and your brass is more prone to split necks. Also, if they offer a titanium nitride coating on the bushings I would recommend that. It simplifies the sizing process as you dont need to lube the necks to size. Hope that helps.
With bushing does you can buy different size bushings to adjust how much tension you want on the bullet. You can also adjust it so it only does a certain amount of the neck to further adjust bullet tension. It also takes less effort to cycle the press, at least i think it does. You can also get away without using lube if you used the nitrided bushings and are only neck sizing.
I only have experience with lee for non bushing dies, but my experience was that it seemed like a workout to get the jaws to crimp around the neck. I also saw jaw marks on my necks often. I didn't like not knowing if i got the same amount of 'crimp' on the neck so i Damm near put all my weight on the press lever every time, which might have been the source of the jaw marks.
There are camps for and against both types of dies. Its really a preference, price, intended use decision.
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I only have experience with lee for non bushing dies, but my experience was that it seemed like a workout to get the jaws to crimp around the neck. I also saw jaw marks on my necks often. I didn't like not knowing if i got the same amount of 'crimp' on the neck so i Damm near put all my weight on the press lever every time, which might have been the source of the jaw marks.
There are camps for and against both types of dies. Its really a preference, price, intended use decision.
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Personally, I find bushing dies to be a hassle for the most part.
Yes, they allow you to select a neck size for minimum cold-working of the neck.
Yes, they allow you to only size the length of the neck you wish to.
My thoughts on this: Who cares?
I never size only 1/2 the neck. I don't neck turn, so even my lapua brass neck thickness varies, so the bushing die WON'T provide "equal" neck tension for all cases unless I sort by neck thickness, which I don't.
I anneal my cases from time to time, and I've never failed a rifle case by a split neck, so "overworking" my casenecks has never been a failure mode for me. I've loosened primer pockets, oversized brass and caused a few CHS's, and failed cases a few ways, but never because my caseneck got brittle from the the extra .010" of cold working I've performed with a FLS die.
A bushing die is generally not capable of fixing a case with a dinged/out of round case mouth.
After using a lot of different schemes, including bushing dies, FLS dies, bushing/bump dies, X dies and maybe others I can't remember at the moment, my current method is:
Size with an FLS die with the expander ball removed.
Run the case up onto a neck expanding mandrel to get the INSIDE DIAMETER of the caseneck .002" under bullet diameter.
Unless you neck turn to gaurantee even neck thickness, you can't maintain equal neck tension by sizing the caseneck from the outside. You must size it from the inside.
All that said, a $20 RCBS standard FLS die with expander ball works *just* fine for all but the most critical benchrest type shooting. Load less, shoot more.
Yes, they allow you to select a neck size for minimum cold-working of the neck.
Yes, they allow you to only size the length of the neck you wish to.
My thoughts on this: Who cares?
I never size only 1/2 the neck. I don't neck turn, so even my lapua brass neck thickness varies, so the bushing die WON'T provide "equal" neck tension for all cases unless I sort by neck thickness, which I don't.
I anneal my cases from time to time, and I've never failed a rifle case by a split neck, so "overworking" my casenecks has never been a failure mode for me. I've loosened primer pockets, oversized brass and caused a few CHS's, and failed cases a few ways, but never because my caseneck got brittle from the the extra .010" of cold working I've performed with a FLS die.
A bushing die is generally not capable of fixing a case with a dinged/out of round case mouth.
After using a lot of different schemes, including bushing dies, FLS dies, bushing/bump dies, X dies and maybe others I can't remember at the moment, my current method is:
Size with an FLS die with the expander ball removed.
Run the case up onto a neck expanding mandrel to get the INSIDE DIAMETER of the caseneck .002" under bullet diameter.
Unless you neck turn to gaurantee even neck thickness, you can't maintain equal neck tension by sizing the caseneck from the outside. You must size it from the inside.
All that said, a $20 RCBS standard FLS die with expander ball works *just* fine for all but the most critical benchrest type shooting. Load less, shoot more.
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Everything turbo says here is right. I do take exception on the sizing with a standard FL sizing die with the expander removed, most dies crush it too far down and the ball brings it back, to a preset diameter, not customized to any specific chamber.
And before one decides to neck size, he should know what his neck diameter is going to swell to. Bushing's have a slight bevel to them, and if your neck is oversized, you just turned the die into a cute little donut maker. I know, I have 4 rifles with over reamed necks.
And before one decides to neck size, he should know what his neck diameter is going to swell to. Bushing's have a slight bevel to them, and if your neck is oversized, you just turned the die into a cute little donut maker. I know, I have 4 rifles with over reamed necks.
Milo,
Could you elaborate on the donut maker comment? I'm Using a redding bushing die for 338 and started to observe what I think are now donuts on some 5x reloaded BH's brass that I've been suspecting is from the bushings.
OD on fired cases was .371 and I was using a .366 size bushing when sized as measured out. I've recently been playing with a two step process of starting higher and getting to .366 to see if it alleviates it with other brass but so many steps are a PITA.
Could you elaborate on the donut maker comment? I'm Using a redding bushing die for 338 and started to observe what I think are now donuts on some 5x reloaded BH's brass that I've been suspecting is from the bushings.
OD on fired cases was .371 and I was using a .366 size bushing when sized as measured out. I've recently been playing with a two step process of starting higher and getting to .366 to see if it alleviates it with other brass but so many steps are a PITA.
I understand what turbo is saying, but my redding bushing dies have an expander ball that, IMO, ensures that the neck is not compressed beyond a certain point. Granted it will still likely result in slightly different neck tension for different thicknesses of necks and unnecessary cold working of cases with thicker necks, but so will a non bushing die.
I agree, a $20 rcbs is 'fine'. My choice to use the bushing dies is is that i use little to no lube with the nitrided bushings, its effortless to cycle the press, and no 'jaw marks' on the neck.
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I agree, a $20 rcbs is 'fine'. My choice to use the bushing dies is is that i use little to no lube with the nitrided bushings, its effortless to cycle the press, and no 'jaw marks' on the neck.
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M
milo 2.0
Guest
If you take the bushing out of the die, you'll see it's beveled a little, so you can see it can't size the neck all th way to the shoulder, no matter how far down you screw the die in.
Then if you set the bushing to move or center a little bit, as per instructions, you get more the neck not being sized.
With the numbers you qouted, I don't think it's a problem with your gun. Going to .366, means with a seated bullet, it probably measures .368, or .369, so only .002" expansion, that's actually tight, a good deal. And your donut, if there, should really never cause a seating issue.
I have two 6.5x47's, loaded round measures .288", neck is reamed to .293", that's .005", you can see the difference.
If you need more info, pm me and I'll try help.
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Your bushing is what dictates how much the neck diameter is compressed, most people replace the expander ball with the black one that comes with the die. That's why you can buy different size bushings compared to a reg die.
Properly prepped brass, chamfered and deburred, even in a reg die, doesn't need lube on the neck and shoulder. I tip mine neck down in a tray when I spray them, the base of the case is what will stick.
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