Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

sandwarrior

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... i dont care about the first post either to be honest. I wasnt planning on posting until i seen the 6.5 catches the 300 win mag quickly statement and having used both extensively, and knowign the basic ballistics of both i have to disagree. But then you went to the "ammo shelf comparision" and comparing high bc 6.5 bullets to low BC 30 cal bullets ...
This is called HIGHJACKING a thread. Go back and read the first post and follow instructions. And consider the context and time frame of the post. The original post goes back in time to when there were ZERO high BC bullets in .300 Win mags. on the shelf. If you had read the first post you would know that’s an issue. But you’d rather just come on and argue.
Post something of value or get off the thread.
 

STI_1911_Guy

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This is called HIGHJACKING a thread. Go back and read the first post and follow instructions. And consider the context and time frame of the post. The original post goes back in time to when there were ZERO high BC bullets in .300 Win mags. on the shelf. If you had read the first post you would know that’s an issue. But you’d rather just come on and argue.
Post something of value or get off the thread.

I agree I did but only to prevent false info from spreading that’s why I picked on that one statement because that’s the only thing that was bullshit. Preventing people from believing and spreading that was my contribution, thats all.
 

sandwarrior

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So, as far as long range, this doesn't really apply so much, but for certain applications it's a pretty cool round...

The .25-20 WCF. I've been playing with micro rounds for a while now and find them pretty interesting as to how much you can get out of them. Especially older ones when coupled with modern components. This cartridge started in 1889 as a black powder cartridge, but lent itself well to the smokeless conversion. I tested everything in a Savage 23B dated from aroun 1926. It started life as a Marlin round with the 1889 Marlin being chambered for it. Somehow or other Winchester got it and called it the .25-20 WCF. The most common chambering is in the 1892 Winchester lever action.

Plus's,
Cheap to reload for,
Bullets that will fit are common.
Weapons for it are very light
Has about .22LR recoil (more but you barely feel it)
Works well as a long range small critter gun.
The big advantage: When loaded to original velocities, it is Extremely quiet! No suppressor added. ;)
Less noise and will push a 60 gr. bullet out to 2500 fps. More if you want, but I suggest that as a stopping point.

Minus's
Ammo must be ordered and it isn't cheap. Reloading is where you save.
Brass is harder to find than ammo, So my first 40 cases were from ammo I bought.
"Fit" and "work" are two different things with this cartridge. While 85 gr. spitzers "work", they don't fit my magazine. My rifle requires a round nose to "fit". Without a soft tip, or round nose. you can't load multiple cartridges in a tube magazine. So, with many modern bullets that will "work", single feeding is mandatory.
Need a special die to neck down the parent case, 32-20 WCF. Which is easy to find.
Finding a firearm is a matter of luck running across one in an old gun store. They aren't that common.
Usually, the firearm is expensive. Winchester made them in 1892 lever, Savage in the 23B. Often, the magazines go for what a model 23 rifle will go for.

Anyhow, it's a great round to go plinking with and if you want to extend your kill energy over a .22LR or mag, this round is the ticket.
One item of note about this cartridge is, it was the cartridge used to kill the Jordan Buck. At that time, and until the Iowa buck was killed, it was the largest whitetail ever killed in the U.S. While not legal in any state for deer (at this writing), nor do I recomend it ever, that's a pretty good argument for shot placement over power. Take that you .300 mag fags. All that gun and you still can't kill the big deer.
 
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Aggie

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I’d like to hears users comments in more detail on two calibers.

6mm Creedmoor

6.5X55 Swedish

Both have a following.
 

PracticalTactical

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Seems to me that caliber discussion alone is not enough...

I'll offer a couple examples of what I mean...

I've shot F-Class for about 20 years and have problems ejecting live 308 rounds from a Rem 700 short action, because the barrel is throated long so I can seat the 185 Berger Jugs out as far as possible.... that being longer than the ejection port. In retrospect I should have used a long action for this 308, which I didn't consider at the time I started putting the rifle together. I also cannot run from a magazine, not that I would in F-Class but I could use the same rifle for other things.

Same story with 223... I have a Sako 75 with a mag length of about 2.300" but the 80 grain SMKs are seated to more like 2.600 OAL for max case capacity... that means they wont feed from a mag and I cannot eject a live round. Now I'm building a new rifle using a Defiance Deviant Tactical action for 223, just so I can run AICS pattern mags and feed from a mag with my long 223 rounds.

Another key point to all of this is the huge medium to long range performance difference between the 308 and 223 how I'm loading them compared to the SAMMI spec version of said rounds.
 

Aggie

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The .308 while not a COOL DESIGNER CARTRIDGE has gotten the job done accurately and reliably since the 1960s. It is a good accurate round if you how to use it.
 
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PracticalTactical

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In the context of F-Class competition it is not uncommon for the 308 scores to be higher than the F-Open scores. Not so typically in the Grand Aggregate, but frequent enough in individual stages.

It's easy for a ballistics junky to get caught up in BCs and muzzle velocities, but the difference between most good medium sized calibers is found mainly in competition and under the specific weather conditions at the time of the match.

A buddy of mine, Bob the Viper ran a 6.5-06 Ackley Improved of sorts for as long as I've known him and by all accounts, I should never have beat his scores with a 308... but somehow or another I did every now and then.... At the stage level anyway, but not the agg.

If I recall Bob needed something like 18 minutes up from a 100 yard zero for 1000 yards while I was around 36 minutes. By that measurement I should never have gotten close really. So much for arithmetic.

Theoretically... Where Bob would undoubtedly have blown me away would be past 1000 yards when the 308 would drop into the transonic range and accuracy would degrade rapidly, where I'll bet Bob's load would have been supersonic well past 1500 yards.
 
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sandwarrior

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In the context of F-Class competition it is not uncommon for the 308 scores to be higher than the F-Open scores. Not so typically in the Grand Aggregate, but frequent enough in individual stages.

It's easy for a ballistics junky to get caught up in BCs and muzzle velocities, but the difference between most good medium sized calibers is found mainly in competition and under the specific weather conditions at the time of the match.

A buddy of mine, Bob the Viper ran a 6.5-06 Ackley Improved of sorts for as long as I've known him and by all accounts, I should never have beat his scores with a 308... but somehow or another I did every now and then.... At the stage level anyway, but not the agg.

If I recall Bob needed something like 18 minutes up from a 100 yard zero for 1000 yards while I was around 36 minutes. By that measurement I should never have gotten close really. So much for arithmetic.

Theoretically... Where Bob would undoubtedly have blown me away would be past 1000 yards when the 308 would drop into the transonic range and accuracy would degrade rapidly, where I'll bet Bob's load would have been supersonic well past 1500 yards.
No body is winning anything with .308 anymore unless it’s in a .308 only competition. It’s not that it’s a terrible round, it’s that the diameter does not lend itself as well as a smaller diameter bullet to shaping it aerodynamically and keeping it at a weight it can be launched fast enough to do some good. In short, it’s the fat kid at the track meet.

This thread is about a cartridge you would choose and why. It’s supposed to explain it in a single post.

If you go back to the first post you’ll see that. If you read further, you will also see that the .308 has several posts regarding the cartridge.
 
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sandwarrior

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I should point out too, that while the .308 caliber isn’t in the winners circle that much anymore, there has been a whole slough of newer .30 cal bullets that bridge the gap of old .308” bullets to newer smaller diameter bulliets.

Where the transonic realm used to be the boundary for .30 cal., that is no longer the case. They won’t get there as fast, but they do get there. You don’t need to change from a .308 if that’s what you are shooting. Unless, you need the competitive edge that it won’t give you.
 

slimJim2000

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I am sure a .308 loaded longer then mag length, and loaded into the chamber single shot with a barrel setup for the new longer bullets can do reasonable well, however it kind of defeats the reason for having a .308 in the first place.
 

PracticalTactical

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I've had problems with my 308 in F Class with 185 Berger Juggernauts seated long... with a long throat chamber...

I cannot eject a live round without partially removing the bolt.

If a guy wants to run from a mag with a 308 these days I would suggest basing the build on a long action so the long round could feed from a mag and to eject the darn thing.

I just built a 223 on a Defiance action for the same reason... so I can run 80 grainers stuck out as far as possible and feed from AI mags.

There's actually a ballistic advantage to the 223 over 308 within PRS rules, since the 223 max velocity is 3000 FPS but only 2800 FPS for 308. Not that I can hit 3000 with a 77 grain bullet, but I can get 2900 easy.

To my surprise Ruger stopped producing the RPR in 223, which as far as I know was the only factory produced 223 capable of running 2.5" long rounds from a 223. I thought that rifle should have been their best selling model personally.
 
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sandwarrior

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I've had problems with my 308 in F Class with 185 Berger Juggernauts seated long... with a long throat chamber...

I cannot eject a live round without partially removing the bolt.

If a guy wants to run from a mag with a 308 these days I would suggest basing the build on a long action so the long round could feed from a mag and to eject the darn thing.

I just built a 223 on a Defiance action for the same reason... so I can run 80 grainers stuck out as far as possible and feed from AI mags.

There's actually a ballistic advantage to the 223 over 308 within PRS rules, since the 223 max velocity is 3000 FPS but only 2800 FPS for 308. Not that I can hit 3000 with a 77 grain bullet, but I can get 2900 easy.

To my surprise Ruger stopped producing the RPR in 223, which as far as I know was the only factory produced 223 capable of running 2.5" long rounds from a 223. I thought that rifle should have been their best selling model personally.
Agreed, it gets frustrating when you and I can see what needs doing, yets the whole rest of the gun world is saying that's the way we've always done it. So, changes either never get made , or they go away like the RPR because no one likes the change. My favorite, that sends me into brain spins, is some one saying, "That's just stupid., there's no need for that!"
 
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Aggie

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Caliber discussions are always interesting. Each is optimized for a particular purpose.
 

cgilbert@wildcatsurveying

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Does anyone know is there a short action non magnum cartridge that can push a 150 grain bullet or larger 3200 feet per second?
I think the closest thing I can come up with is the 6.5 saum.
 

KydeX

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Does anyone know is there a short action non magnum cartridge that can push a 150 grain bullet or larger 3200 feet per second?
I think the closest thing I can come up with is the 6.5 saum.
I don't think that option exists. And the 6.5 SAUM is also a magnum. 6.5 short action ultra magnum
 

coldboremiracle

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    Does anyone know is there a short action non magnum cartridge that can push a 150 grain bullet or larger 3200 feet per second?
    I think the closest thing I can come up with is the 6.5 saum.
    Its not a 150, but the 257 Blackjack will push a 131 grain .340 BC bullet over 3200 easy, from my 24" barrel, and feeds from AI SA mags in my SA Remington
     
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    Clark

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    I have reloading dies and guns for 63 cartridges.
    The past few years I have concentrated on 6.5-06, 280AI, and 7mmRM..

    Outside of my concentration in 2020 I will shoot a factory 243 Sako , build a 7mmSTW on a Defiant action.

    I will probably put (2) deer in the freezer.
     
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    ThePretzel

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    Does anyone know is there a short action non magnum cartridge that can push a 150 grain bullet or larger 3200 feet per second?
    I think the closest thing I can come up with is the 6.5 saum.
    6.5 SAUM = 6.5 Short Action Ultra Magnum

    Even then you're still not going to be pushing the 147 ELD-M's or the 156 EOL much faster than 3,000-3,100 at the most. You need more case capacity if you want to push the heavier bullets any faster, and that case capacity means either a super fat magnum that AFAIK doesn't exist (SAUM is the closest, but still can't quite get those speeds), or a long action length cartridge.
     

    Steel head

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    6.5 SAUM = 6.5 Short Action Ultra Magnum

    Even then you're still not going to be pushing the 147 ELD-M's or the 156 EOL much faster than 3,000-3,100 at the most. You need more case capacity if you want to push the heavier bullets any faster, and that case capacity means either a super fat magnum that AFAIK doesn't exist (SAUM is the closest, but still can't quite get those speeds), or a long action length cartridge.
    Those speeds are 26 nosler territory
    Expecting a SA cartridge to get there is crazy talk.
     

    ThePretzel

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    In a 6.5 it is, my SA 257 Blackjack does it easy, and with a superior bullet.
    You're shooting a 131 grain bullet. In a 6.5 Creedmoor I could get a 123gr SMK up to 3,200 fps using RL-16 filled all the way to the top of the case neck in Lapua brass, the 257 Blackjack is nothing special in that regard.

    Put a 150+ grain bullet in your gun and it will still shoot below 3,100 fps guaranteed and almost certainly below 3,000 fps as well.
     

    coldboremiracle

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    You're shooting a 131 grain bullet. In a 6.5 Creedmoor I could get a 123gr SMK up to 3,200 fps using RL-16, the 257 Blackjack is nothing special.

    Put a 150+ grain bullet in your gun and it will still shoot below 3,100 fps guaranteed and almost certainly below 3,000 fps as well.
    Your 123 SMK is a flying cow pat compared to the 131. It cant even make it to a mile before going subsonic. My Blackjack is supersonic beyond 2k yards. Not that Im worried about shooting either that distance. But the energy, and wind deflection at realistic distances are far superior.
     

    Steel head

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    unless you’re up in some lofty DA’s I’m not seeing that supersonic past 2000 panning out at a 3200 velocity.
     

    coldboremiracle

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    unless you’re up in some lofty DA’s I’m not seeing that supersonic past 2000 panning out at a 3200 velocity.
    I'm certainly not poor in the DA department. Anywhere from 5k to 11k depending on the day. But even my mild load at 3110 MV puts it right around 1150 as it crosses 2000. ETA: Looks like it crosses into sub-sonic range right around 2300 yards (conditions depending).

    I'm not familiar with the 257 Black Jack, but supersonic past 2K in a non-magnum sounds completely wrong to me...
    Who said its a non-magnum? We were talking about SA cartridges. I'm not sure if Blackjack calls it a magnum or not, but Im sure its pressure curve would put it in the same stall as similar cartridges like the 6.5SAUM.
     

    ThePretzel

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    Your 123 SMK is a flying cow pat compared to the 131. It cant even make it to a mile before going subsonic. My Blackjack is supersonic beyond 2k yards. Not that Im worried about shooting either that distance. But the energy, and wind deflection at realistic distances are far superior.
    The ballistics on the 131 Blackjack are good, but we're talking about pushing heavy bullets fast. 131's are great for external ballistics, not as good as something heavier with a different design in most cases when it comes to terminal ballistics. Note I'm not saying the 123 SMK is good for that, just saying it's relatively easy to push a lightweight bullet to those speeds for a SA magnum or even with more effort using a SA non-magnum. I like the 131 Blackjack quite a bit, I'm just leery of building a gun that only has a single good option for bullets after seeing what can happen to supply when Berger moved their manufacturing.

    Funny enough I did actually shoot that 123 SMK load at the mile. At my DA that day of about 7,000 it only went subsonic at 1,720 yards, just barely before the target. It worked surprisingly well until the wind started picking up in the afternoon. After that my last impact of the day, after many missed attempts, was made with 16.5 mils of elevation and 12.5 mils of windage!
     
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    coldboremiracle

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    not as good as something heavier with a different design in most cases when it comes to terminal ballistics.
    Arguable, especially if your talking about minimal gains like the 147. I've watched the 131 blow through a deer at 1100 yards like it wasn't even there, left a perfect wound channel, and a blood trail that was about 20yds long. And that was from my 25 Creedmoor, not the Blackjack (250 fps faster).
     

    ThePretzel

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    Arguable, especially if your talking about minimal gains like the 147. I've watched the 131 blow through a deer at 1100 yards like it wasn't even there, left a perfect wound channel, and a blood trail that was about 20yds long. And that was from my 25 Creedmoor, not the Blackjack (250 fps faster).
    I wouldn't use the 131 or the 147 for hunting most larger game, but I would use the 156. I'm comfortable with the 147 and 131 for deer, I even killed my deer last fall using a 115 DTAC out of a 6BR, but I'd prefer something designed for more of a controlled expansion when hunting larger game such as elk. The shoulder blade and ribs on those suckers are deceptively large and strong to boot, so even a perfect shot can end with less than ideal results if it makes contact with a rib and a match-style bullet blows the jacket off.

    You can kill an elk with a .22 if you hit it in the perfect place, but life's full of imperfections even if you do your part exactly right. Like I said before I love the design and performance of the 131 and would have built one years ago if there were multiple bullet sources, so I'm not trying to unfairly malign the bullet or the cartridge.

    I'm just trying to point out that, while a fantastic performer, the 131 Blackjack isn't a 150+ grain bullet going 3,200fps or more in a short action cartridge like what the person asked about. Every cartridge has its pros and cons, and the Blackjack is a great option for long range or entry-level ELR without having a spend a fortune to shoot specialty cartridges with oversized actions. Other larger cartridges/bullets do deliver more energy on target with better controlled expansion bullet designs, and some smaller cartridges/bullets do a better job of providing low recoil impulse with "good enough" long range performance. Every cartridge has its place since there are trade-offs for performance and different shooters have different needs.
     

    coldboremiracle

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    I wouldn't use the 131 or the 147 for hunting most larger game
    Thats fine, you do you however you see best.

    We've killed five deer and two elk with it the past two seasons, this year the Blackjack is up. I have every confidence it will do even better.
    I'd of used the 25CM on this years couple elk too, but I was working on testing a different bullet in the 6.5CM. A 127 that dropped em both where they stood at 475 and 520 yds.
     
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    sandwarrior

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    FWIW, The 131 Blackjack is a very 'heavy for caliber' projectile. I've killed a lot of deer with a MUCH lighter .257 cal bullet.
    There is no reason it shouldn't be used. It has plenty of energy, especially retained energy at distance, and super high sectional density. It'll penetrate, and destroy what you need it to.

    As far as "breaking shoulder bones", why on earth would you ruin half your meat. Unless you just like bloodshot meat. But, that is a hunting thing, not a ballistics thing.
     

    199 398 500 A

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    Looking for people to verify or change my opinion of caliber choice. I have a 308 rifle for hunting. I want to go smaller so I can shoot cheaper and easier (not a .22lr, I already have that as well). I want to build a semi custom Tikka and I'm thinking it will be .223. I chose .223 due to availability and cost. If I want to buy bulk ammo, nothing is seems cheaper. If I want to reload for match grade quality rounds, it seems cheaper than anything else. Are there any advantages to go to a different caliber for performance or cost?
     
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    coldboremiracle

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    Looking for people to verify or change my opinion of caliber choice. I have a 308 rifle for hunting. I want to go smaller so I can shoot cheaper and easier (not a .22lr, I already have that as well). I want to build a semi custom Tikka and I'm thinking it will be .223. I chose .223 due to availability and cost. If I want to buy bulk ammo, nothing is seems cheaper. If I want to reload for match grade quality rounds, it seems cheaper than anything else. Are there any advantages to go to a different caliber for performance or cost?
    Very sound reasoning. I've done the same thing for the same reasons.
     
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    Boltyboi

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    Looking for people to verify or change my opinion of caliber choice. I have a 308 rifle for hunting. I want to go smaller so I can shoot cheaper and easier (not a .22lr, I already have that as well). I want to build a semi custom Tikka and I'm thinking it will be .223. I chose .223 due to availability and cost. If I want to buy bulk ammo, nothing is seems cheaper. If I want to reload for match grade quality rounds, it seems cheaper than anything else. Are there any advantages to go to a different caliber for performance or cost?
    Also did the same thing. .223ai is another good choice if you want to push the performance a bit.
     

    PracticalTactical

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    I've spent a fair amount of time with my new 223 build and I'm going to stick with it.

    I have a 1 in 7 twist barrel with long throat so I can seat the Hornady 88 grain ELD match bullet to around 2.600" OAL and with fire formed cases my load runs a solid 2900 FPS. With full length resized brass I'me getting 2850 FPS and with small base die resized brass I run 2800 FPS.

    With a .545 G1 BC or .274 G7 BC, and at these speeds, I'm getting ballistic performance that is practically identical to the small 6mms, but even less recoil. No it's not as accurate as a 6 Dasher, but for PRS I don't put much weight on the difference.

    I know guys kinda blow off the 223 as not competitive regardless of how it's configured, but it's a solid rig if set up like this and I would recommend it this way to anyone who hand loads and is not in the top 10 percent in big matches.

    Oh, and no it does not conform to tactical division rules, so I need to run it in the open class.

    I suppose at this point there's no reason not to go to a 223 AI except that it would kinda mess up factory ammo performance, since it would be blowing the cases out... but you could if you want to. The cases only mean something to me after I fired them once anyway.
     
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    Boltyboi

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    I've spent a fair amount of time with my new 223 build and I'm going to stick with it.

    I have a 1 in 7 twist barrel with long throat so I can seat the Hornady 88 grain ELD match bullet to around 2.600" OAL and with fire formed cases my load runs a solid 2900 FPS. With full length resized brass I'me getting 2850 FPS and with small base die resized brass I run 2800 FPS.

    With a .545 G1 BC or .274 G7 BC, and at these speeds, I'm getting ballistic performance that is practically identical to the small 6mms, but even less recoil.

    I know guys kinda blow off the 223 regardless of how it's configured, but it's a solid rig if set up like this and I would recommend it this way to anyone who hand loads.

    Oh, and no it does not conform to tactical division rules, so I need to run it in the open class.

    I've got a 1:8 .223 becuase I wanted a factory rifle and that's what tikka offered. Realistically, how much performance am I losing out on with that running 80s vs the 88-90 class projectiles? I'm also a fan of having access to ~50gr squirel lasers.
     
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    PracticalTactical

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    I've got a 1:8 .223 becuase I wanted a factory rifle and that's what tikka offered. Realistically, how much performance am I losing out on with that running 80s vs the 88-90 class projectiles? I'm also a fan of having access to ~50gr squirel lasers.

    Not to rag on you but... You are losing out on quite a bit actually at longer ranges.

    The G1 BC on a 80 grain SMK is about .461, while the 88 ELD for example is .545.

    At the same muzzle velocity, you can expect to add almost 100 yards to all your wind and elevation settings on the difference. Meaning the angular wind offset for the 80 SMK at 461 yards will be the same as needed for the 88 ELD at 545 yards.

    I have never tried the 90 grain SMK, but I do plan to. I know an amazing F Class shooter who uses then exclusively to 1000 yards.

    The 1 in 8 twist will work real well up to 80 grains. I ran a 1 in 8 223 Sako for many years in F Class myself, but it became obsolete for F Class to the 1 in 6.5 or 1 in 6.8 twist 223s with 90s.

    I suppose it really just depends on your expectations and what you plan to do with the rifle. If you are comfortable with it, I'm sincerely happy for you.

    Tikka is a real nice rifle.
     
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    Boltyboi

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    Not to rag on you but... You are losing out on quite a bit actually at longer ranges.

    The G1 BC on a 80 grain SMK is about .461, while the 88 ELD for example is .545.

    At the same muzzle velocity, you can expect to add almost 100 yards to all your wind and elevation settings on the difference. Meaning the angular wind offset for the 80 SMK at 461 yards will be the same as needed for the 88 ELD at 545 yards.

    I have never tried the 90 grain SMK, but I do plan to. I know an amazing F Class shooting who uses then exclusively to 1000 yards.

    The 1 in 8 twist will work real well up to 80 grains. I ran a 1 in 8 223 Sako for many years in F Class myself, but it became obsolete for F Class to the 1 in 6.5 twist 223s with 90s.

    I suppose it really just depends on your expectations and what you plan to do with the rifle. If you are comfortable with it, I'm sincerely happy for you.

    Tikka is a real nice rifle.
    Good to know. Honestly my plans for the gun are something that I can shoot off the shelf ammo in, vaporize squirrels and push into medium game getting, as well as be a cheap to shoot target gun out to around 600. I think the 80s will do fine for that, and I plan to get a 6mm or 6.5 barrel for it down the road
     

    PracticalTactical

    Sergeant of the Hide
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    May 13, 2019
    413
    210
    Good to know. Honestly my plans for the gun are something that I can shoot off the shelf ammo in, vaporize squirrels and push into medium game getting, as well as be a cheap to shoot target gun out to around 600. I think the 80s will do fine for that, and I plan to get a 6mm or 6.5 barrel for it down the road

    You're going to convert your 223 into a 6mm or 6.5mm?

    You understand the rim diameter of a 223 is considerably smaller than any of the sixes right?

    Its a bit of an effort to enlarge the bolt face, but it can be done on certain rifles. I have a rem 700 that began its life as a 223 and was converted to a 308, but that required the bolt face to be re machined.

    I'm not sure you can do the same with a Tikka.
     

    Boltyboi

    dirty little vortex whore
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Jul 25, 2019
    189
    157
    You're going to convert your 223 into a 6mm or 6.5mm?

    You understand the rim diameter of a 223 is considerably smaller than any of the sixes right?

    Its a bit of an effort to enlarge the bolt face, but it can be done on certain rifles. I have a rem 700 that began its life as a 223 and was converted to a 308, but that required the bolt face to be re machined.

    I'm not sure you can do the same with a Tikka.

    I'm going to get a second .308 bolt face and use wrench flats and a torque wrench so I can swap between easily