Call it good or try for better results?

[TRyanOC]

I've been reloading for a few years and have really tried to improve my handloads this year. I turn necks, anneal, full length size with bushings, expander mandrel to final neck tension. I don't sort bullets or cases and I use RCBS Chargemaster. I don't weigh to the kernel. I've tried different neck tensions, different lubing processes, seating depths, bullets and case prep.

OK, so here's my question. I can only achieve SD's of 10 and ES of 30. These are repeatable and measured over a Magnetospeed. Should I call it good? I'm a long range steel shooter and mule deer hunter out to 600yds max. I shoot 7/08 in a custom build. I don't compete or aspire to shoot 1 hole groups, although I wouldn't complain if I could, lol. I can shoot 1/2"- 3/4" groups. I've had a few .3" groups.

My thoughts are it's more than likely in my powder throws, but could be a combination of things. Thoughts?

Stay safe and good luck to all you hunters in the upcoming season.

 

[XLR308]

If your happy with the results and the load performs for your use that's really all that matters.
You may be able to fine tune it a little bit, have you gone back and verified you are still in the middle of the node you initially identified during work up ?

 

[TRyanOC]

If your happy with the results and the load performs for your use that's really all that matters.
You may be able to fine tune it a little bit, have you gone back and verified you are still in the middle of the node you initially identified during work up ?

Yes I have, to the best of my ability and knowledge. I performed the Satterlee method with .2 grain increases and found a nice flat spot in velocity. Went to the middle of the node and verified with .1 grain on either side.

 

[XLR308]

What powder and brass are you using ?

 

[Olen_4504]

Sounds like you might want to try some different powders

 

[straightshooter1]

I've been reloading for a few years and have really tried to improve my handloads this year. I turn necks, anneal, full length size with bushings, expander mandrel to final neck tension. I don't sort bullets or cases and I use RCBS Chargemaster. I don't weigh to the kernel. I've tried different neck tensions, different lubing processes, seating depths, bullets and case prep.

OK, so here's my question. I can only achieve SD's of 10 and ES of 30. These are repeatable and measured over a Magnetospeed. Should I call it good? I'm a long range steel shooter and mule deer hunter out to 600yds max. I shoot 7/08 in a custom build. I don't compete or aspire to shoot 1 hole groups, although I wouldn't complain if I could, lol. I can shoot 1/2"- 3/4" groups. I've had a few .3" groups.

My thoughts are it's more than likely in my powder throws, but could be a combination of things. Thoughts?

Yeah, I'm very inclined to agree that it's likely in your powder throws.

I also have a ChargeMaster and when only using it to measure my charges, I get similar chrono results using my MagnetoSpeed. And I feel that's just fine for the kind of shooting you mention. But, I really like getting "1 hole groups". . . . mainly so I have more confidence that when I don't, I know it's likely the nut behind the gun that's causing the problem. So . . . in addition to using my ChargeMaster I also weigh the charge on my GemPro 250 where I can measure down to a single kernel. When I do this my SD's are in the single digits and my ES's are in the low teens. Of course, this extra step adds more time to the loading process and such extra time to do this probably isn't worth it for shooting steel and hunting???

 

[Deleted member 113831]

If you had a load that literally put them all in one hole at 100 yards, what would that realistically do for you? I mean, do you think it would still be putting them into one hole at 500 yards? If you shot a one MOA load at 500, and a "one hole" load at 500, how much confidence do you have that the difference would be evident?

 

[TRyanOC]

What powder and brass are you using ?

I'm using Norma brass and Varget.

 

[TRyanOC]

Sounds like you might want to try some different powders

I've tried RL 15 and 17 as well.

 

[TRyanOC]

Yeah, I'm very inclined to agree that it's likely in your powder throws.

I also have a ChargeMaster and when only using it to measure my charges, I get similar chrono results using my MagnetoSpeed. And I feel that's that's just fine for the kind of shooting you mention. But, I really like getting "1 hole groups". . . . mainly so I have more confidence that when I don't, I know it's likely the nut behind the gun that's causing the problem. So . . . in addition to using my ChargeMaster I also weight the charge on my GemPro 250 where I can measure down to a single kernel. When I do this my SD's are in the single digits and my ES's are in the low teens. Of course, this extra step adds more time to the loading process and such extra time to do this probably isn't worth it for shooting steel and hunting???

Thanks, I might have to get one of these GemPro250's.

 

[TRyanOC]

If you had a load that literally put them all in one hole at 100 yards, what would that realistically do for you? I mean, do you think it would still be putting them into one hole at 500 yards? If you shot a one MOA load at 500, and a "one hole" load at 500, how much confidence do you have that the difference would be evident?

Exactly, for what I do it's important to me to shoot one hole groups. Honestly, I don't like shooting paper much anyway. I feel like if I could get SD's of 6-7 and ES of 15, I'd be completely happy. Hell, where it's at now isn't too bad. Just trying to get a feel of what others settle for.

 

[XLR308]

I'm using Norma brass and Varget.

Good brass and one of the best temp stable powders made, I wouldn't change anything personally.
Just for shits and giggles if you have the patience and just want to tinker try sorting 20 cases out of the lot you have by internal volume and see what that does to your SD and ES numbers.
I don't know if Norma brass is processed to the same extremes as the Nosler custom that is made by them. The Nosler Custom is weight sorted, trimmed, chamfered, debured and flash holes uniformed.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Exactly, for what I do it's important to me to shoot one hole groups. Honestly, I don't like shooting paper much anyway. I feel like if I could get SD's of 6-7 and ES of 15, I'd be completely happy. Hell, where it's at now isn't too bad. Just trying to get a feel of what others settle for.

My personal standard is under 1 moa for 10 shots at 200 yards and round shaped groups.

It's been my experience that round groups hold their dispersion more consistently at distance.

200 yards is far enough to really start to see what is actually happening with the group, but still close enough that environmentals can either be controlled or accounted for.

 

[straightshooter1]

Thanks, I might have to get one of these GemPro250's.

I don't know if you'll be able to find one for sale . . . unless one happens to come up on eBay. It was inexpensive at the time I got mine and I might add . . . frankly, it's NOT a great scale. Mine works for me, though this model of GemPro is pretty finicky and can be hard to keep it from drifting. There are much better scales out there than can measure down to the kernel, but really good one's can cost a substantial amount.

 

[spife7980]

Just FYI, the 250 was discontinued a couple years back.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If you’re doing all the things you listed correctly, it will be your powder throw that will get the numbers smaller. I generally assume my SD is about double and ES is about 1.5x. That tends to be the trend when running 5 shots over chrono for testing and keeping track of stuff long term. So my 3-6sd is likely more like 6-12 in reality. And my 15-20 ES is probably 20-30 somewhere. Which is why I attempt to get things as low as possible (without going nuts). The really small numbers everyone sees are in reality what people would consider mediocre (when in reality people just don’t know what good numbers actually are).

A better scale will probably cut your ES numbers down a noticeable amount. The question is, does it matter that much to you and/or will it matter in the targets you usually shoot?

 

[TRyanOC]

If you’re doing all the things you listed correctly, it will be your powder throw that will get the numbers smaller. I generally assume my SD is about double and ES is about 1.5x. That tends to be the trend when running 5 shots over chrono for testing and keeping track of stuff long term. So my 3-6sd is likely more like 6-12 in reality. And my 15-20 ES is probably 20-30 somewhere. Which is why I attempt to get things as low as possible (without going nuts). The really small numbers everyone sees are in reality what people would consider mediocre (when in reality people just don’t know what good numbers actually are).

A better scale will probably cut your ES numbers down a noticeable amount. The question is, does it matter that much to you and/or will it matter in the targets you usually shoot?

I like to shoot 10 shots over a chrono and that's where I get my numbers. Would you still think it'd be double that shooting 20 shot groups? This is an interesting perspective, thanks.

In all honesty, it probably doesn't matter to me that much to acheive SD of 5 and ES of 12 for my level of shooting. Now if I was shooting paper at 1000 yards, then it absolutely would.

 

[TRyanOC]

Good brass and one of the best temp stable powders made, I wouldn't change anything personally.
Just for shits and giggles if you have the patience and just want to tinker try sorting 20 cases out of the lot you have by internal volume and see what that does to your SD and ES numbers.
I don't know if Norma brass is processed to the same extremes as the Nosler custom that is made by them. The Nosler Custom is weight sorted, trimmed, chamfered, debured and flash holes uniformed.

This is something I will probably try. Good stuff, thanks.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I picked up an inexpensive gem20 jewlers scale from Amazon that works good for verifying charges down to .02gr. I use a Chargemaster and a Hornady auto throw simultaneously and check every 10 or so. Seems to work well enough. single digit SD and ES in the teens. No neck turning or other special steps.

You might consider running another test on the node plus and minus. Maybe something changed.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I like to shoot 10 shots over a chrono and that's where I get my numbers. Would you still think it'd be double that shooting 20 shot groups? This is an interesting perspective, thanks.

In all honesty, it probably doesn't matter to me that much to acheive SD of 5 and ES of 12 for my level of shooting. Now if I was shooting paper at 1000 yards, then it absolutely would.

IMO, no need to run a ton over chrono all the time. Especially if you are pretty good with your loading stuff like brass prep.

Just do 5-10 each range trip and keep a log. Over time you’ll have a ton of data to see what your numbers tend to be.

Then instead of doing a ton of strings over chrono early on and eating up barrel life, you can collect data over the long haul.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

My reloading process involves all the things the OP does and doesn't do with two exceptions:

1. I don't turn the necks of my Peterson (same lot), Starline (same lot), or Hornady brass
2. I do weigh to the kernel on an A&D FX-120i.

My ES/SD values, aggregated by brass vendor over dozens (if not hundreds) of 6.5CM rounds, run close to 30/10, values which have tightened to closer to 25/8 as I've gained experience. Other relevant info:

1. Powder is exclusively H4350 (two lots, loads separated by powder lot)
2. Bullets are Berger 140 Hybrids (also a lesser number of Hornady 147- and 140-grain ELD-Ms)
3. Primers are Federal 210M in large-primer Hornady brass, CCI 450 in the small-primer Peterson and Starline.

My point: I don't think weighing charges down to the single kernel is the single "magic bullet" for low ES/SD values with the OP's other parameters remaining constant. If 0.02 - 0.03 grains of powder matters that much, why do we even bother with looking for nodes? My 6.5CM loads consistently yield sub-1/2 MOA groups (on paper targets) at 500+ yards. They seem to do ok on an 8-inch-tall truing bar at 875 yards but I have much less experience at the 750-1200 yard range (that's changing).

Caveat: I don't turn case necks. Did that once upon a time, don't want to go there again. I'd like to achieve and maintain, over dozens or hundreds of rounds, the mythical single-digit ES (which I often see with 5-round tests), but there's a limit to the effort I'll expend to achieve it - if it's even possible over more than 15-20 rounds.

 

[Dthomas3523]

My reloading process involves all the things the OP does and doesn't do with two exceptions:

1. I don't turn the necks of my Peterson (same lot), Starline (same lot), or Hornady brass
2. I do weigh to the kernel on an A&D FX-120i.

My ES/SD values, aggregated by brass vendor over dozens (if not hundreds) of 6.5CM rounds, run close to 30/10, values which have tightened to closer to 25/8 as I've gained experience. Other relevant info:

1. Powder is exclusively H4350 (two lots, loads separated by powder lot)
2. Bullets are Berger 140 Hybrids (also a lesser number of Hornady 147- and 140-grain ELD-Ms)
3. Primers are Federal 210M in large-primer Hornady brass, CCI 450 in the small-primer Peterson and Starline.

My point: I don't think weighing charges down to the single kernel is the single "magic bullet" for low ES/SD values with the OP's other parameters remaining constant. If 0.02 - 0.03 grains of powder matters that much, why do we even bother with looking for nodes? My 6.5CM loads consistently yield sub-1/2 MOA groups (on paper targets) at 500+ yards. They seem to do ok on an 8-inch-tall truing bar at 875 yards but I have much less experience at the 750-1200 yard range (that's changing).

Caveat: I don't turn case necks. Did that once upon a time, don't want to go there again. I'd like to achieve and maintain, over dozens or hundreds of rounds, the mythical single-digit ES (which I often see with 5-round tests), but there's a limit to the effort I'll expend to achieve it - if it's even possible over more than 15-20 rounds.

Couple things:

We look for nodes because the .02 or .03 matter for temp changes and such. Also nodes were more important to find when good chronos weren’t a thing. Modern components, chrono, and software is good enough now that it honestly doesn’t matter that much. Circa 1990, you had to be in a node when you went from point A to point B with weather/elevation change and your dope would still be in the ballpark.

Now, all you have to do is make sure you have a working BC or custom curve. Fly to bumfuk wherever, strap the magneto on, input velocity and go to work. Nodes are much less important and arguably unnecessary (especially for prs/practical shooting).

As far as neck turning, it helps a little. But the two things I see that have the largest return on investment is better powder scales and using a mandrel to set neck tension. Thinks like neck turning will improve a little, but not like the scale and mandrel does.

 

[Punkur67]

I've been reloading for a few years and have really tried to improve my handloads this year. I turn necks, anneal, full length size with bushings, expander mandrel to final neck tension. I don't sort bullets or cases and I use RCBS Chargemaster. I don't weigh to the kernel. I've tried different neck tensions, different lubing processes, seating depths, bullets and case prep.

OK, so here's my question. I can only achieve SD's of 10 and ES of 30. These are repeatable and measured over a Magnetospeed. Should I call it good? I'm a long range steel shooter and mule deer hunter out to 600yds max. I shoot 7/08 in a custom build. I don't compete or aspire to shoot 1 hole groups, although I wouldn't complain if I could, lol. I can shoot 1/2"- 3/4" groups. I've had a few .3" groups.

My thoughts are it's more than likely in my powder throws, but could be a combination of things. Thoughts?

Stay safe and good luck to all you hunters in the upcoming season.

Buy an autotrickler V3 and never look back. My SDs dropped a bunch and its way faster than previous methods. Here are a couple load development spreadsheets for my 6.5cm and 300wm with plenty of single digit options. Its not impossible to get these results with other means, its just simple and fast with the autotrickler

 

[straightshooter1]

My reloading process involves all the things the OP does and doesn't do with two exceptions:

1. I don't turn the necks of my Peterson (same lot), Starline (same lot), or Hornady brass
2. I do weigh to the kernel on an A&D FX-120i.

My ES/SD values, aggregated by brass vendor over dozens (if not hundreds) of 6.5CM rounds, run close to 30/10, values which have tightened to closer to 25/8 as I've gained experience. Other relevant info:

1. Powder is exclusively H4350 (two lots, loads separated by powder lot)
2. Bullets are Berger 140 Hybrids (also a lesser number of Hornady 147- and 140-grain ELD-Ms)
3. Primers are Federal 210M in large-primer Hornady brass, CCI 450 in the small-primer Peterson and Starline.

My point: I don't think weighing charges down to the single kernel is the single "magic bullet" for low ES/SD values with the OP's other parameters remaining constant. If 0.02 - 0.03 grains of powder matters that much, why do we even bother with looking for nodes? My 6.5CM loads consistently yield sub-1/2 MOA groups (on paper targets) at 500+ yards. They seem to do ok on an 8-inch-tall truing bar at 875 yards but I have much less experience at the 750-1200 yard range (that's changing).

Caveat: I don't turn case necks. Did that once upon a time, don't want to go there again. I'd like to achieve and maintain, over dozens or hundreds of rounds, the mythical single-digit ES (which I often see with 5-round tests), but there's a limit to the effort I'll expend to achieve it - if it's even possible over more than 15-20 rounds.

I agree, that weight charged down to a single kernel what's going to really help get one down to low ES's and SD's. Once one does this, then one can better see effects in changes/variances with the less effective procedures . . . like neck turning.

I like neck turning (even with my Peterson and Lapua brass, though they are typically the most uniform brass on the market). If one in not using Peterson or Lapua brass (Norma following closely), I would certainly recommend turning if precision shooting it the goal . . . and particularly if one is using a bushing to get the neck tension one is after. If one is using an expander mandrel for the neck tension, then it's not such a big deal as one can get decent concentricity this way, even with brass that has neck thicknesses that might vary by .002 - .003. It's not just about concentricity of a seated bullet, but also about even bullet release when the neck starts to expand and seal the chamber. It's a small thing that's only important if such a small difference make a difference with achieving your goal or not.

PS: Chrono ES's and SD's mostly only tells me how well I'm doing with my powder throws. What's on the paper tells me how well the gun is reacting to the cartridge build along with the skill of the shooter. Think about how the shooter part of the equation is taken out when Lapua test fires their ammo (like when doing lot testing of 22LR ammo) at their test facilities in a environmentally controlled tunnel where the action is bolted down and the only thing touched is the trigger when fired.

 

[TRyanOC]

Buy an autotrickler V3 and never look back. My SDs dropped a bunch and its way faster than previous methods. Here are a couple load development spreadsheets for my 6.5cm and 300wm with plenty of single digit options. Its not impossible to get these results with other means, its just simple and fast with the autotrickler
View attachment 7443893
View attachment 7443894

Nice, thank you for sharing.