Can someone please explain

supercorndogs

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I can't find any good articles specifically on the topic, but at least in Florida, farms are using 83% of the fertilizer so it seems like a bold claim that the other 17% is the bigger offender.


I found lots of articles listing agricultural runoff as the top source, but most articles are talking about pollution in general and also discussed things like animal waste.

I would guess Flodria has high usage rates because of the crops they grow, their sandy soils, and their high average rainfall. Maybe someone from Florida can chime in there. I think MTNcreek is on that coast also? More rain, more wash out. Sand is fairly inert but a good medium for growing if you can put nutrients into it, or grow on the basis of current industrial agricultural models.
 

DarnYankeeUSMC

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    In your head
    Actually the debate is deeper than what we are discussing. Should we have started using chemical fertilizer to start with? Why was it done before the repercussions were thought through?
    Would the population have controlled itself if there wasn't a glut of food? Farmers originally only produced to support themselves and have a bit of excess to trade for the things that they couldn't produce. They managed the land through crop rotation and natural replenishment.
    Population centers, cities, needed produce and the farmers market, stores, paid better than trade and barter.
    The race was on for profit and mechanized farming was created which demands chemical fertilizer.
    It's sorta like the discussion of feeding the poor instead of teaching them to be self-sufficient
     

    Old Man with Gun

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    Who ever. Just the one that supports the claims being made so I can read it for myself.

    I think it may be hard to get a clear answer, to easy to slice the data to say what you want it to.
    For example the nitrogen pollution from specifically nitrogen base fertilizer vs manure used as fertilizer vs animal waste from cows, pigs and poultry are all different.

    This is a good read and relevant for context I think.


    I feel horrible for all the farmers facing bankruptcy and losing their way of life, also the fishermen facing the same thing.

    I am a SCUBA dive, and I can say we are destroying our reefs and fish populations. To compare the reefs I was diving in the 80's and 90's to today is so saddening.
     

    Hobo Hilton

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    When mankind has killed off human's, Mother Nature will reclaim this planet. Perhaps those who visit this planet in ten thousand years will learn from our mistakes.
     
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    DarnYankeeUSMC

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    In your head
    George Vanderbilt bought the Biltmore estate for seriously cheap money because of deforestation and soil erosion. They fixed it by farming and replenished the soil with manure. Then they planted like three million trees.
    The government had plans for interstate 40 to run through the property and within a couple hundred yards of the house. The only thing that stopped that from happening was their success of reforestation by natural replenishment. There's a pretty good back story to the estate but few people know that story. They only hear about the lavish expensive stuff. Like him building a railroad into the property to bring in the material to build. When he actually bought a section of railroad and had it installed on the property. Once built he sold it back to the railroad company for 90% of his original purchase price and it was all removed from the property. Their farming and hunting on the land made it self sufficient.
    I think it may be hard to get a clear answer, to easy to slice the data to say what you want it to.
    For example the nitrogen pollution from specifically nitrogen base fertilizer vs manure used as fertilizer vs animal waste from cows, pigs and poultry are all different.

    This is a good read and relevant for context I think.


    I feel horrible for all the farmers facing bankruptcy and losing their way of life, also the fishermen facing the same thing.

    I am a SCUBA dive, and I can say we are destroying our reefs and fish populations. To compare the reefs I was diving in the 80's and 90's to today is so saddening.
    After watching the Dutch farmers spraying manure in their protest the wife and I discussed how spreading manure is a thing of the past around here.
     

    wade2big

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    George Vanderbilt bought the Biltmore estate for seriously cheap money because of deforestation and soil erosion. They fixed it by farming and replenished the soil with manure. Then they planted like three million trees.
    The government had plans for interstate 40 to run through the property and within a couple hundred yards of the house. The only thing that stopped that from happening was their success of reforestation by natural replenishment. There's a pretty good back story to the estate but few people know that story. They only hear about the lavish expensive stuff. Like him building a railroad into the property to bring in the material to build. When he actually bought a section of railroad and had it installed on the property. Once built he sold it back to the railroad company for 90% of his original purchase price and it was all removed from the property. Their farming and hunting on the land made it self sufficient.

    After watching the Dutch farmers spraying manure in their protest the wife and I discussed how spreading manure is a thing of the past around here.
    Spreading manure still gets done. Its usually chickenshit and can be smelled for miles away. It’s just not as prevalent.
     

    Jgunner

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    Spreading manure still gets done. Its usually chickenshit and can be smelled for miles away. It’s just not as prevalent.
    Ive been fermenting old chicken shit and its been working great. It smells fucking horrible, but my plants like it. Its easy to water in as well. I just gotta make sure i dont over do it
     

    DarnYankeeUSMC

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    In your head
    It's not prevelent because it's time consuming compared to chemicals.
    It's done here also but not on the same scale as it was twenty five years ago
    Spreading manure still gets done. Its usually chickenshit and can be smelled for miles away. It’s just not as prevalent.
     

    mosin46

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    south fl,the glades and okeechobee have for decades been polluted by big sugar. which BTW would be banned if subjected to the same criteria that other food additives (aka poisons) are researched by and approved by. and big sugar has owned the fl legislature and executive office for those same decades. as for golf courses,not only do they create nitrogen runoff but also the runoff of the herbicides,insecticides and fungicides used to grow perfect lawns in fl and everywhere else. my parents lived for 40 yr in a subdivision on a lake that was crystal clear in 1960 and choked with overgrowth as shown above by 1975. no,walmart didn't do it. the waste of H2O in lawn care,golf course care,swimming pools (usually never used) and most especially industrial agriculture are a huge waste that will bite us in the ass in the next 50 years or so.
     
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    Old Man with Gun

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    Older technical divers will remember this quote.

    "Oxygen is deadly and addictive. Everyone who breathes it will eventually die." - Dr Bill Hamilton
    Yep
    IMG957937.jpg
     
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    supercorndogs

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    George Vanderbilt bought the Biltmore estate for seriously cheap money because of deforestation and soil erosion. They fixed it by farming and replenished the soil with manure. Then they planted like three million trees.
    The government had plans for interstate 40 to run through the property and within a couple hundred yards of the house. The only thing that stopped that from happening was their success of reforestation by natural replenishment. There's a pretty good back story to the estate but few people know that story. They only hear about the lavish expensive stuff. Like him building a railroad into the property to bring in the material to build. When he actually bought a section of railroad and had it installed on the property. Once built he sold it back to the railroad company for 90% of his original purchase price and it was all removed from the property. Their farming and hunting on the land made it self sufficient.

    After watching the Dutch farmers spraying manure in their protest the wife and I discussed how spreading manure is a thing of the past around here.
    A good jumping off point.

     

    ggmanning

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    After watching the Dutch farmers spraying manure in their protest the wife and I discussed how spreading manure is a thing of the past around here.

    It is still very prevalent where I live. There are very few farmers around here that don't use chicken litter. Litter is dried in dry stacks and spread with spreader trucks. Much cheaper than commercial fertilizer and also handles the need to dispose of the chicken litter. Yeah it stinks but after discing in or a short rain on pastures it goes away. By comparison I can fertilize my cow pastures for about 15% of commercial fertilizer cost......all I have to buy commercial is lime every 4-5 years. Chicken farmers couldn't give it away 20 years ago now there is competition to get it. Luckily I live in an area with lots of chicken houses....probably 40 within a 5 mile radius. Most all small operations around here with cows or horses use tractor drawn manure spreaders to sling cown and horse manure too. Our big garden is 100% cow manure yearly with 1-2 tons of lime every 5 years and a couple bags of 34-0-0 to top dress sweet corn every year.
     
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    mosin46

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    it should be known that we can feed the entire nation "organically" with no chemical fert,no roundup,not even plowing. read "the lentil underground" and a japanese book that i have been trying to find that uses very diff techniques than most asian agri. removing the posion from the food supply would cost more. would it be more than current inflated prices? doubtful. the US produces huge surpluses that are usually given away as a political tool or simply wasted. remember the "soil bank" abortion? of course the system would have to radically change and the profits generated by the current system would be lost to big ag,big chem,elitist big shots (bill gates et al) and big gov.
     
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    montigre

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    It pertains to nitrogen-based fertilizers. Because of their excessive use, too much enter the natural waterways causing fast-growing plants to out-compete and kill slower-growing beneficial plants. It's knocking out our food chain from its source...
     
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    Hobo Hilton

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    It pertains to nitrogen-based fertilizers. Because of their excessive use, too much enter the natural waterways causing fast-growing plants to out-compete and kill slower-growing beneficial plants. It's knocking out our food chain from its source...
    But isn't that how you get nutrients to plants used for "plant based food" ?
     
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    beetroot

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    They are not trying to compromise.

    They have settled on the “less food = less people” idea.
    This isn't about population control, it's about making moves towards forcing people to go plant based.

    Population control is being done via chemtrails, now that shit is messed up.
     

    mheimer_45

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    The problem with fertilizers are the big seed companies. This is based on my personal experience from farming for 20+ years. The big seed companies say you need x amount of N to produce a bushel. Well guess who manufactures the fertilizers? Mainly the same people that own the seed companies own the fertilizer companies. I know Purdue Unv came out a few years ago and said the amount of N needed to produce a bushel of corn was 2lbs. Well in the corn belt where 250-300 bushel corn is average, any guesses on how much N they are using. In western Kansas on irrigated corn ground we are .5lbs on N per bushel of corn. 98% of what we fertilizer is liquid ran through the sprayer with humic acid to keep it there and from running off.

    Also a few years (maybe 10) a fertilizer company came out with a new coating for dry fertilizer. It was supposed to keep it from leaching into the atmosphere and keep it from disintegrating before the corn planted needed it. It was made out of styrofoam. What happens to styrofoam when it rains. It floats. So all the fertilizer you just applied before the rain ran off.
     

    Rthur

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    I can't find any good articles specifically on the topic, but at least in Florida, farms are using 83% of the fertilizer so it seems like a bold claim that the other 17% is the bigger offender.


    I found lots of articles listing agricultural runoff as the top source, but most articles are talking about pollution in general and also discussed things like animal waste.

    More usage doesn't equal more loss/leaching into the watersheds.
    Production of fertilized crops yield wise will give ferts that weren't available to be lost to runoff/overuse.
    Prime example local to me.
    5k acre lake used as water source power generation for 125k sized city.
    Water quality issues involving phosphates and nitrogen.
    Witch hunt ensues looking for culprit/s up and from creek systems.
    No joy, can't find any "trail" to attribute high test numbers.
    Lake is surrounded by high end real estate, water commission board members btw.
    After more than a five year study news and desire to find solution ends abruptly.
    Btw, 2/3 of the housing at this time frame were still on septic systems right next to this lake.

    R
     
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    Int1968

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    George Vanderbilt bought the Biltmore estate for seriously cheap money because of deforestation and soil erosion. They fixed it by farming and replenished the soil with manure. Then they planted like three million trees.
    The government had plans for interstate 40 to run through the property and within a couple hundred yards of the house. The only thing that stopped that from happening was their success of reforestation by natural replenishment. There's a pretty good back story to the estate but few people know that story. They only hear about the lavish expensive stuff. Like him building a railroad into the property to bring in the material to build. When he actually bought a section of railroad and had it installed on the property. Once built he sold it back to the railroad company for 90% of his original purchase price and it was all removed from the property. Their farming and hunting on the land made it self sufficient.

    After watching the Dutch farmers spraying manure in their protest the wife and I discussed how spreading manure is a thing of the past around here.
    In southern Ontario the worst was spreading of human waste (bio solids) on farmland. Wait till they start pumping toilet water back into aquifers. People could argue that the worlds population is due from anhydrous ammonia from natural gas.
     

    Keeper22

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    Toilet water back into the aquafir? You mean like septic tanks and reclaimed water from sewage treatment plants?
     

    Hobo Hilton

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    Toilet water back into the aquafir? You mean like septic tanks and reclaimed water from sewage treatment plants?
    Lake Mead would welcome some of that reclaimed water.
    The only thing worse than reclaimed water is no water at all.
    Just something to ponder.
     

    Keeper22

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    Lake Mead would welcome some of that reclaimed water.
    The only thing worse than reclaimed water is no water at all.
    Just something to ponder.
    Yep, a lot of folks that live in large cities don't know what a septic tank is and how it works. Flush the toilet and it magically disappears. I may know someone that built a homemade septic tank for the washing machine to go to, so not to fill septic tank.
     

    fdkay

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    Yep, a lot of folks that live in large cities don't know what a septic tank is and how it works. Flush the toilet and it magically disappears. I may know someone that built a homemade septic tank for the washing machine to go to, so not to fill septic tank.
    Your washing machine, sinks and bathtubs should go to a gray water tank that can be used for watering your lawn/garden.
    Just don't piss in the shower
     

    Hobo Hilton

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    Yep, a lot of folks that live in large cities don't know what a septic tank is and how it works. Flush the toilet and it magically disappears. I may know someone that built a homemade septic tank for the washing machine to go to, so not to fill septic tank.
    Yep... "Grey Water" has greened many a lawn or raised many a garden. Old school "Go Green".
     

    CaptArab

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    Actually the debate is deeper than what we are discussing. Should we have started using chemical fertilizer to start with? Why was it done before the repercussions were thought through?
    Would the population have controlled itself if there wasn't a glut of food? Farmers originally only produced to support themselves and have a bit of excess to trade for the things that they couldn't produce. They managed the land through crop rotation and natural replenishment.
    Population centers, cities, needed produce and the farmers market, stores, paid better than trade and barter.
    The race was on for profit and mechanized farming was created which demands chemical fertilizer.
    It's sorta like the discussion of feeding the poor instead of teaching them to be self-sufficient
    This is an excellent point.

    Mono crop agriculture is a horrible practice that desperately needs to end. 700k combines and spray rigs shouldn't even exist. Along with plows, tillers, etc.

    The conversation that needs to happen is how to restore the soil that's been generationally raped by big ag.

    The original fertilizer is chicken shit.
    Folks new to this should read Joel Salatin.
     

    montigre

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    But isn't that how you get nutrients to plants used for "plant based food" ?
    It isn't the fact that fertilizers are being used per se, it's the amount of fertilizers used because we are not allowing the soil to self-regenerate naturally due to very high demand. This high level is damaging our waterways as it is washed from the fields during rains.
     

    Hobo Hilton

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    It isn't the fact that fertilizers are being used per se, it's the amount of fertilizers used because we are not allowing the soil to self-regenerate naturally due to very high demand. This high level is damaging our waterways as it is washed from the fields during rains.
    Wasn't a problem until the white man set foot in America. Not hearing any complaints out of the German farmer's in New England.
     

    Ravenworks

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    south fl,the glades and okeechobee have for decades been polluted by big sugar. which BTW would be banned if subjected to the same criteria that other food additives (aka poisons) are researched by and approved by. and big sugar has owned the fl legislature and executive office for those same decades. as for golf courses,not only do they create nitrogen runoff but also the runoff of the herbicides,insecticides and fungicides used to grow perfect lawns in fl and everywhere else. my parents lived for 40 yr in a subdivision on a lake that was crystal clear in 1960 and choked with overgrowth as shown above by 1975. no,walmart didn't do it. the waste of H2O in lawn care,golf course care,swimming pools (usually never used) and most especially industrial agriculture are a huge waste that will bite us in the ass in the next 50 years or so.

    Phosphates in laundry detergents is heavily regulated.
    Phosphates has screwed a lot of things up.
     

    Hobo Hilton

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    Phosphates in laundry detergents is heavily regulated.
    Phosphates has screwed a lot of things up.
    The "Double edges sword"..... Phosphates is what cleaned so good. when they took out the phosphates then the consumer started using twice as much soap. Phosphate can be bought on Amazon... Many just add it in with their wash.


    Phosphate reserves are found in Africa, North America, Kazakhstan, the Middle East and Oceania but the world's largest deposits are located in Morocco, which is also one of the global leaders in phosphate extraction.