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Maggie’s How a Hybrid really works... Cradle to grave...

sirhrmechanic

Command Sgt. Major
Full Member
Minuteman
This came from a classmate who went on to get his PhD in military history. Retired Army officer. Kind of a smart guy.

He didn't write it. But sure as heck it hits the nail on the head.

Sirhr

Electric vehicles and what it takes to power them.

Whether you are a proponent of electric vehicles or not, this is very interesting information. An unusual and thought provoking article by Bruce Haedrich. (5th Generation War)

When I saw the title of this lecture, nobody seemed to know what to expect. The only hint was a large aluminum block sitting on a sturdy table on the stage.

When the crowd settled down, a scholarly-looking man walked out and put his hand on the shiny block, “Good evening,” he said, “I am here to introduce NMC532-X,” and he patted the block, “we call him NM for short,” and the man smiled proudly. “NM is a typical electric vehicle (EV) car battery in every way except one; we programmed him to send signals of the internal movements of his electrons when charging, discharging, and in several other conditions. We wanted to know what it feels like to be a battery. We don’t know how it happened, but NM began to talk after we downloaded the program.

Despite this ability, we put him in a car for a year and then asked him if he’d like to do presentations about batteries. He readily agreed on the condition he could say whatever he wanted. We thought that was fine, and so, without further ado, I’ll turn the floor over to NM,” the man turned and walked off the stage.

“Good evening,” NM said. He had a slightly affected accent, and when he spoke, he lit up in different colors. “That cheeky woman on the marquee was my idea,” he said. “Were she not there, along with ‘naked’ in the title, I’d likely be speaking to an empty auditorium! I also had them add ‘shocking’ because it’s a favorite word amongst us batteries.” He flashed a light blue color as he laughed.

“Sorry,” NM giggled then continued, “three days ago, at the start of my last lecture, three people walked out. I suppose they were disappointed there would be no dancing girls. But here is what I noticed about them. One was wearing a battery-powered hearing aid, one tapped on his battery-powered cell phone as he left, and a third got into his car, which would not start without a battery. So, I’d like you to think about your day for a moment; how many batteries do you rely on?”

He paused for a full minute which gave us time to count our batteries. Then he went on, “Now, it is not elementary to ask, ‘what is a battery?’ I think Tesla said it best when they called us Energy Storage Systems. That’s important. We do not make electricity – we store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid. Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, n’est-ce pas?”

He flashed blue again. “Einstein’s formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.”

He lit up red when he said that, and I sensed he was smiling. Then he continued in blue and orange. “Mr. Elkay introduced me as NMC532. If I were the battery from your computer mouse, Elkay would introduce me as double-A, if from your cell phone as CR2032, and so on. We batteries all have the same name depending on our design. By the way, the ‘X’ in my name stands for ‘experimental.’

There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.

Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium.

The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.

All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old, ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery’s metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.

In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle batteries like me or care to dispose of single-use ones properly.

But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive embedded costs.”

NM got redder as he spoke. “Everything manufactured has two costs associated with it, embedded costs and operating costs. I will explain embedded costs using a can of baked beans as my subject.

In this scenario, baked beans are on sale, so you jump in your car and head for the grocery store. Sure enough, there they are on the shelf for $1.75 a can. As you head to the checkout, you begin to think about the embedded costs in the can of beans.

The first cost is the diesel fuel the farmer used to plow the field, till the ground, harvest the beans, and transport them to the food processor. Not only is his diesel fuel an embedded cost, so are the costs to build the tractors, combines, and trucks. In addition, the farmer might use a nitrogen fertilizer made from natural gas.

Next is the energy costs of cooking the beans, heating the building, transporting the workers, and paying for the vast amounts of electricity used to run the plant. The steel can holding the beans is also an embedded cost. Making the steel can requires mining taconite, shipping it by boat, extracting the iron, placing it in a coal-fired blast furnace, and adding carbon. Then it’s back on another truck to take the beans to the grocery store. Finally, add in the cost of the gasoline for your car.

But wait - can you guess one of the highest but rarely acknowledged embedded costs?” NM said, then gave us about thirty seconds to make our guesses. Then he flashed his lights and said, “It’s the depreciation on the 5000-pound car you used to transport one pound of canned beans!”

NM took on a golden glow, and I thought he might have winked. He said, “But that can of beans is nothing compared to me! I am hundreds of times more complicated. My embedded costs not only come in the form of energy use; they come as environmental destruction, pollution, disease, child labor, and the inability to be recycled.”

He paused, “I weigh one thousand pounds, and as you see, I am about the size of a travel trunk.” NM’s lights showed he was serious. “I contain twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside me are 6,831 individual lithium-ion cells.

It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each auto battery like me, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth’s crust for just - one - battery.”

He let that one sink in, then added, “I mentioned disease and child labor a moment ago. Here’s why. Sixty-eight percent of the world’s cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls, and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?”

NM’s red and orange light made it look like he was on fire. “Finally,” he said, “I’d like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being ‘green,’ but it is not! This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.

The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium-diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.

Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades. Sadly, both solar arrays and windmills kill birds, bats, sea life, and migratory insects.

NM lights dimmed, and he quietly said, “There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions. I predict EVs and windmills will be abandoned once the embedded environmental costs of making and replacing them become apparent. I’m trying to do my part with these lectures.

Thank you for your attention, good night, and good luck.” NM’s lights went out, and he was quiet, like a regular battery.

I wonder how many people made it all the way to the end if this piece? And, how many will still buy their 1st EV or buy their 2nd and 3rd
 
All of the facts ^^^.
Most are still:
IMG_4345.GIF


R
 
This came from a classmate who went on to get his PhD in military history. Retired Army officer. Kind of a smart guy.

He didn't write it. But sure as heck it hits the nail on the head.

Sirhr
Thats too long for whats left of my feeble little mind. Could we get the Cliff Notes version?
 
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ev or not to ev it does not matter it's all about there control over citizens like a god complex except just a really really old crazy people . the bigger question is how much they can push before people push back .
 
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Thats odd, I didn’t read anything about kid fucking.
 
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Did Henry Ford think about the wars and death that would be required to run his mass produced cars eventually ....... EV's are just the next generation of cars after all there's only 30 year supply of oil left. Can they make a car to run on piss ?
 
I thought you had a hybrid ram 3500?
I do... because I want to give African Kids job opportunities!! Don't care about the 'deeper' picture. If I can help families by supporting their children's lithium mining careers... I'm all about that! Think of it as "It Takes a Village."

Cummins diesel 3500 Ram is the best truck I ever had. But they are hard to get.

Sirhr
 
My edit crossed your comment ;-)

If I went too far, my apologies to Nazis.

Sirhr
I don’t mind the message, I’d just rather not have it wrapped in bullshit about a talking battery. It’s insulting.

And I’m seriously curious about why pedophilia is “living rent free”, to use the favored phrase, in the heads of so many hide members. Or has “pedophile” just become, like “cunt”, the last, worst insult, aside from “6.5 shooter”.
 
Elites and "leaders" lecture about renewables and EVs. All the while killing, raping and pillaging for control over the world's fossil fuels.

Mmmhmmm.
 
Repeat a lie enough and eventually it becomes truth. So is the hype provided for "zero emissions" or "green" vehicles.
 
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I don’t mind the message, I’d just rather not have it wrapped in bullshit about a talking battery. It’s insulting.

And I’m seriously curious about why pedophilia is “living rent free”, to use the favored phrase, in the heads of so many hide members. Or has “pedophile” just become, like “cunt”, the last, worst insult, aside from “6.5 shooter”.
I am sorry for my generalizations. I will do better in future.

When I say "Pedophile" I really mean Democrat, Liberal, CinC, His son, Most of CNN, Hollywood, The W.H.O., Anthony Wiener, Chinese President Xi, The Pope, everyone who works for Disney and the entire cast and crew of Leonard Part 6. Look it up.

Sirhr
 
Ive said before electric cars are going to be the future, but untill battery technology evolves they are not green, and there are better options if you are concerned about the environment
 
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electric vehicles are only going to be tangible and viable when they each have their own 'nuclear' plant on them. Never have to stop and refill again, not unlike how they do submarines.

Size being an issue, it might be a little bit. Nothing else to be concerned about though, just size.
 
Imagine a Nuclear Fusion Reactor powering the process that extracts Hydrogen from Sea Water and the resultant Hydrogen is used to power a fuel cell or internal combustion engine, battery powered cars will be obsolete.
 
Imagine a Nuclear Fusion Reactor powering the process that extracts Hydrogen from Sea Water and the resultant Hydrogen is used to power a fuel cell or internal combustion engine, battery powered cars will be obsolete.
They can call them Hindenburg's.
 
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Imagine a Nuclear Fusion Reactor powering the process that extracts Hydrogen from Sea Water and the resultant Hydrogen is used to power a fuel cell or internal combustion engine, battery powered cars will be obsolete.

There are hydrogen cars today like the Honda clarity.
The issue is that most hydrogen commercially is from natural gas and other such carbon fuels.

Using electricity to split sea water into hydrogen and oxygen is a bit more complex because the salt messes things up fast and there are some not so nice gasses that are made as a side product etc. Great in theory, but probably will have to be done with fresh water.

On the other hand if you have a nuclear reactor with enough energy to spare, you could make hydrocarbons out of CO2 in the air so...
 
@sirhrmechanic - Thanks for that. I've had this discussion with a few left leaning EV driving PHD types. Haven't been able to articulate or quantify it nearly as well as this article did.

Please ask your classmate if he can give you the source?
Bruce Haedrich (5th Generation War)*
Also try Victoria by Thomas Hobbs (AKA Bill Lind)

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
The problem is the author doesn’t have his facts straight. 81,000lb blades? 500,000lbs of raw materials to make one battery? Thats why the left mocks us. They come up with more believable lies.

Blade assembly… 74000 lbs.

As for the batteries…. If you have to get 1 lb of some minerals/metals, you have to process tons and tons of raw ore. Lithium, cobalt, even copper… takes tons of ore to make pounds (or grams) of material.


500,000 lbs for one car battery… about right.

Green energy is a great vision and I am all for it. Right now it is a bunch of crony capitalism bs and a fashion statement for those who can afford to make fashion statements while ignoring the upstream and downstream carnage their fashions are causing.

They should go back to Egret Plumes and crocodile shoes and beaver hats for their destructive fashion statements.

Sirhr

918V…. One of these in your garage perchance? Very fashionable! I am “green” with envy!

BEF44ACF-62B5-4D3D-AB44-F4F2773A2C8C.jpeg
 

Blade assembly… 74000 lbs.

As for the batteries…. If you have to get 1 lb of some minerals/metals, you have to process tons and tons of raw ore. Lithium, cobalt, even copper… takes tons of ore to make pounds (or grams) of material.


500,000 lbs for one car battery… about right.

Green energy is a great vision and I am all for it. Right now it is a bunch of crony capitalism bs and a fashion statement for those who can afford to make fashion statements while ignoring the upstream and downstream carnage their fashions are causing.

They should go back to Egret Plumes and crocodile shoes and beaver hats for their destructive fashion statements.

Sirhr

918V…. One of these in your garage perchance? Very fashionable! I am “green” with envy!

View attachment 7839746
Where did you get the Porsche idea from? I dont have one and never will. Second, i realize that wind turbines can get real big but the average wind mill isn‘t. So when you tell people these “facts” you sound like a wack job. Do you use cruise ship engines as an example when talking about mpg?
 
Where did you get the Porsche idea from? I dont have one and never will. Second, i realize that wind turbines can get real big but the average wind mill isn‘t. So when you tell people these “facts” you sound like a wack job. Do you use cruise ship engines as an example when talking about mpg?

Just a hunch...

As for turbine blades... have you looked into the disposal issues right now? Was just driving along the Southern Tier expressway and there is a 'dump' beside 86 (or maybe 88) of blades. Huge pile of past-their-life blades.

I don't have the author's exact sources. But they are not out of the ballpark. There are bigger and smaller turbines. There are rare earths that require more and less material to be mined to get them. The net of it is that green energy, which I do think has merit when the technology catches up with the vision, is currently a sink hole of resources and destructiveness. It is not economically viable. It is ONLY viable with government (aka crony capitalism) support of ersatz 'energy' companies that are enriching 'the connected' while not advancing the science. Solar panels everywhere... that are all but useless. Windmills that take more to build than they will ever produce.

While the eco-fruitbats won't allow dams (oh the poor snail darters.) Won't allow Nuclear (But... Jane Fonda). Crush coal. (Electric car fuel). Complain about any hydrocarbon. (Fracking bad... oil bad! Unicorn farts and butterfly tears are our future). Won't allow Tidal power (No tidal generators next to our beaches or Kennedy Compound). All the while taking their Yachts and private jets to endless climate conferences to virtue signal how important they are. It's all a sham. It's all about redistribution of wealth using polar bears and rising sea levels... because calling it what it is (redistribution of Wealth by force = socialism and communism) with little Red Books and 5 year plans does not get people all crying for more socialism. That failed. You can't dress it up in a green costume and call it anything but... a sham.

Bummer you don't have a Porsche 918, though. They are pretty sick cars!

Sirhr
 

Just a hunch...

As for turbine blades... have you looked into the disposal issues right now? Was just driving along the Southern Tier expressway and there is a 'dump' beside 86 (or maybe 88) of blades. Huge pile of past-their-life blades.

I don't have the author's exact sources. But they are not out of the ballpark. There are bigger and smaller turbines. There are rare earths that require more and less material to be mined to get them. The net of it is that green energy, which I do think has merit when the technology catches up with the vision, is currently a sink hole of resources and destructiveness. It is not economically viable. It is ONLY viable with government (aka crony capitalism) support of ersatz 'energy' companies that are enriching 'the connected' while not advancing the science. Solar panels everywhere... that are all but useless. Windmills that take more to build than they will ever produce.

While the eco-fruitbats won't allow dams (oh the poor snail darters.) Won't allow Nuclear (But... Jane Fonda). Crush coal. (Electric car fuel). Complain about any hydrocarbon. (Fracking bad... oil bad! Unicorn farts and butterfly tears are our future). Won't allow Tidal power (No tidal generators next to our beaches or Kennedy Compound). All the while taking their Yachts and private jets to endless climate conferences to virtue signal how important they are. It's all a sham. It's all about redistribution of wealth using polar bears and rising sea levels... because calling it what it is (redistribution of Wealth by force = socialism and communism) with little Red Books and 5 year plans does not get people all crying for more socialism. That failed. You can't dress it up in a green costume and call it anything but... a sham.

Bummer you don't have a Porsche 918, though. They are pretty sick cars!

Sirhr

I’m not arguing the economical viability of wind. I agree its horse shit. Here is a more accurate article on wind mill blades. Im sure they have gotten bigger since, but nowhere near 80,000lbs.

 
I’m not arguing the economical viability of wind. I agree its horse shit. Here is a more accurate article on wind mill blades. Im sure they have gotten bigger since, but nowhere near 80,000lbs.

I think the author was referring to blade assemblies, not individual blades...

Blade assembly... about 80K pounds. That's blades and hub.

But it's splitting hairs. Which is classic leftist BS... Parse the story (find a tiny error.) Then use that error to destroy the whole argument. Then attack the source.

The Clintons perfected it. And the media doesn't question it.

The size of the stupid blade does not matter. The entire industry is BS. That's what matters.

Sirhr
 
Good story, I appreciate the facts about all the energy it takes to make the items. I also like how he referenced Einstein’s formula, E=MC2. When I have had "discussions" with people in the electric car cult I have brought this up as well as the Laws of Conservation of Energy. I get the blank stare and then the "yeah but" empty statements. Physics over feelings and propaganda.
 
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I think the author was referring to blade assemblies, not individual blades...

Blade assembly... about 80K pounds. That's blades and hub.

But it's splitting hairs. Which is classic leftist BS... Parse the story (find a tiny error.) Then use that error to destroy the whole argument. Then attack the source.

The Clintons perfected it. And the media doesn't question it.

The size of the stupid blade does not matter. The entire industry is BS. That's what matters.

Sirhr

In the OP the author stated each blade weighs 81,000lbs. My point was and still is that when your average person hears something like that their point of reference is their 5000lb car. They drive by these wind mills and make the comparison then google it and think they were lied to. So now they don’t believe you. They believe the TV. And now it will be even harder to convince them otherwise.
 
Just to add fuel to the ratio's, a gold/zinc mine is profitable when the yield was 1 oz per ton of material. And that was back when the price of gold was only $380.00 an ounce.

2,000 lbs of ore is a LOT when all you're getting out of it is 1 oz of gold. And THAT is at a 'good' producing mine.