Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

[IES]

Hi all,

Trying to help a friend out with problems encountered during reloading 1x fired 22-250 brass for a HB PF model 70. After FL resizing the 1x fired brass ~25% of it won't chamber without having to force bolt closed (M70 safety on half-safe so not compressing firing pin spring). After cleaning the chamber and making certain the die meets the shell-holder most of the brass still creates resistance when closing the bolt. Additional FL resizing was done by first running FL die 1/4 turn past contact and resizing to no significant effect, then turning FL die another 1/4 turn past contact and resizing again with no significant effect. All brass has already been trimmed to spec (1.900).

Additionally, when seating bullets (52 amax) in the "good" brass, ~40% of it now is hard to chamber. This "good" brass (the 75%) was easily chambered after FL-sizing but now after seating bullets ~40% of it has become hard to chamber.

I'm wondering if friend's chamber is too-tight, if the old load (40.0gr of H380 with 52gr amax) was "hot enough" to be causing the problem he's seeing, or if the old RCBS die is somehow incompatible with the M70 chamber?

I have read some posts mentioning "removing" a bit of the bottom of the sizing die but I think this is a bad idea. Also thinking about casting his chamber. I would love to take the gun to a smith and have him look it over but IMO the number of good smiths in the area is limited.

Thoughts?

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

Unless the necks are too thick the shoulder isn't bumped back far enough. Over the years I've had two or three dies I had to trim.

 

[ksthomas]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

IES,

Actually, there's several things here, but we really don't know enough to give you a straight answer without getting a better handle on these. Yes, I'd say his load is warm, but I doubt that that's what's causing the problem. Depending on the make of the die, this could be a part of the problem. Some are a bit more generous than others, and won't reduce fired brass sufficiently to get them to chamber again. Might try Redding or Forster, both of which tend toward the minimum dimensions. Set the die low enough to cause the press to cam over when the ram is cycled, and make sure you're getting all the sizing you can. First thing to understand here is that F/L dies don't reduce fired brass to its origninal unfired dimensions. This is where Small Base dies come in, ans they reduce the brass nearer to those unfired dimensions. S/B dies in 22/250 are available, but I'd want to look at this last.

There's also an excellent possibility that the dies are sizing the brass sufficiently, and that it's something else that's keeping these from chambering properly. Misalignment of the press or die, bulging at the base near the head, a slight collapse or bulge at the case neck, any of these or a half dozen others can all cause difficulty in chambering. Like I said, hard to say without actually seeing the rounds. Take a look at some, and see if there's any indication that any of these may be in evidence.

 

[justpete]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

What's the loaded neck diameter? What are the cases trimmed to and how? How are the cases chamfered and deburred? Might want to get a Sinclair chamber length gage as well as a Hornady LNL to double check case datum on the shoulder to the rifling for the bullets being loaded. And are the cases being cleaned and polished before sizing?

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

Unless the necks are too thick the shoulder isn't bumped back far enough. Over the years I've had two or three dies I had to trim.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

To me it sounds like the neck. Was the 1 fired brass fired in this gun? But the die should have resized the neck.

 

[Captain Kirk]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

Here is a trick I use when the die does not resize enough, it will let you know if you need a short base die or not.

Take a feeler guage and place it inder the case in the shellholder, .002 is a good place to start, take your decaping pin out.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

Sounds like a thick neck lot of brass, or a close neck chamber. Measure a fired brass case...try to insert a bullet. If the bullet slides into the fired case, you should be okay. If tight then the neck is thick (for that chamber). Send 3 pieces of fired brass and the FL die to RCBS. They will make it right.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kirk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a trick I use when the die does not resize enough, it will let you know if you need a short base die or not.

Take a feeler guage and place it inder the case in the shell holder, .002 is a good place to start, take your decaping pin out.

</div></div>
Genius! I have always just shaved a little off the shell holder. This is better because it is so accurate, changeable, repeatable, and just plain simple! Thanks Captain.

 

[krw]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

Take your expander button off and try a few rds.

 

[Teggy1]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take your expander button off and try a few rds. </div></div>

This, only because I did something similar.

I wasn't lubing the inside of the necks, with new brass (first time I loaded with new brass). So, I think the lack of carbon/residue was causing the expander to pull the shoulder back out a bit on the return stroke during sizing.

 

[IES]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

Thanks for the responses,

We smoked a sized case and saw wear (during chambering) at the base of the case and no real wear near the shoulder or neck. That being said, some of the ~25% bad case's shoulders look absolutely hideous; while I first thought the problem was the base not being sufficiently sized now I'm thinking it's not just base, or the base and the shoulder/neck?:

All cases have been trimmed to 1.90" or less on an RCBS TrimPro. Case mouths were chamfered/duburred inside and outside after trimming.

Chamber length gauges sound like a good tool to add to the toolbox. The feeler gauge trick is something I will not forget.

Will measure a fired case neck and see whether or not a bullet slips in prior to resizing.

Yes, the first firing of this brass (Win) was in the gun we are loading for/chambering in. Yes, we took the expander/decapper out while attempting to size them more by lowering the FL sizing die.

Cases were tumbled in walnut media and then corn media prior to sizing. Cases were not tumbled/cleaned after sizing.

Even before seating bullets, ~25% of the cases were giving resistance when chambering and in general most all cases (good or bad) gave more resistance when chambering after having bullets seated in them which makes me think the necks are thick in addition to whatever else may or may not be going on.

I think I will buy some new dies tomorrow as well as some chamber gauges, measure some other 1x and 2x fired brass from this gun and measure necks, then resize the other brass as see what happens.

Again, thanks for all the help!

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

The case on the left is clearly oversized. The body shoulder
junction is rolled. There is a hump at the neck shoulder junction on the middle case.
It might be the pic, but the neck on the right one looks bent to the left.
You've got issues. I can't see how a die could be that messed up.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

those necks are crushed a bit, you are oversizing them.
back up you sizing die and resize a freshly fired case and try to close the bolt on it but do not for it.
keep screwing the die down until the bolt closes easily and you are done.
cheers.

 

[IES]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

OK, so apparently in an attempt to get the brass to fit in the chamber without resistance they were oversized...great. This solves the hideous/shoulder neck problem but leaves me wondering why I'm having trouble chambering brass in the first place. As attherange mentioned, a new once fired piece of brass should give me more information. Tried the screw the die down till bolt closes method but it resulted in over-sizing.

The sizing dies are old and came with the rifle and while I don't think they are causing the problem, at least the sizer should be replaced.

Nothing like reloading problems to humble me...maybe I should just take up <span style="text-decoration: line-through">crochet</span> watching Nascar...

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

Ask me how I recognized it.

 

[Layton]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kirk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a trick I use when the die does not resize enough, it will let you know if you need a short base die or not.

Take a feeler guage and place it inder the case in the shell holder, .002 is a good place to start, take your decaping pin out.

</div></div>
Genius! </div></div>

+1

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

Looks like you're trying to FL size with a neck sizer to me, there's no way a proper FL die is going to deform shoulders like that.

 

[JByrd]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like you're trying to FL size with a neck sizer to me, there's no way a proper FL die is going to deform shoulders like that. </div></div>

this is highly likely, check die for fl or nk markings and dont trust the box they came in

ps good eye fuzz

 

[stranded]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

After re-reading, you may have several problems at once. I think very good advice has been given,but you stated you also lost "good brass" after bullet seating. Check your seating die for crimping. If your die is set too far down it will crimp/push shoulders out. Back off seating die placed empty case in holder run case up into die turn die down until you feel it touch case neck back die off 1/4 turn. This should keep you from over crimping/crushing case. Just another thought.

 

[doubletap66]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

You stated that you are cutting to length, then full length sizing. Have you measured the case length after resizing, as the casing will stretch? The case could be too long for your chamber, and that will create many of the problems that you have. It will also make for a dangerous over-pressure situation when fired, as the bullet will not release properly from the case. Just another thing to check.

 

[lightman]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

I have seen shoulders like those caused by a seating die that was crimping/over crimping.I would also look at what Fuzz suggested. Lightman

 

[pjparker]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

I'm with Fuzzball and Lightman. My guess is that you're having issues with a neck-size only die or are over crimping, or maybe both. Can't think of any other way the case shoulders can get mushroomed like those shown. I just don't see how they could get that way in an FL die.

Paul

Just looked at the pictures again and noticed that the funky shoulders are on cases without a seated bullet, so the seater die adjustment can't be causing this.

 

[Frank]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

The only way to collapse a shoulder like that is with the seater die screwed in to far. Run a good case(one thats will rechamber) up, turn seater die down til it stops. Now back it off at least a half turn.

 

[stangfish]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

Read the die manufacturers instructions!

 

[3-0-hate]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

Order new FL dies to just rule that out. The shoulders are being crushed, it's likely a neck sizing die. A cheap set of RCBS dies will likely solve all your problems.

I would also buy a box of new manufactured ammo and try that in the gun to see if its still tight. Then compare that brass to your once fired, both before and after shooting it.

It's all about removing the unknown variables until you achieve repeatable success.

Good luck.

 

[JByrd]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

+1 crimp is smashing or neck die too far dn. Thats all it can be

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

Your problem is common, I have seen it many many times. This is why a picture is worth a thousand words. There is nothing wrong with your sizing its all in your seater setup.

Put an empty case in the shellholder. Run the ram to top of stroke. Screw in your seater die till its stops, that is your crimping feature stopping the case. Turn die OUT 1.5 turns and lock down big nut. From now on do not adjust anything except your seating stem and your problems are over.

 

[IES]

Re: Can't FL resize brass sufficiently

Hi all,

Thanks for all the information and advice.

Turns out their were actually two problems.

1. Friend wasn't using enough lube while sizing. So little lube that he was actually bending the rim down on some of the cases when pulling them out of the FL sizer. Don't believe this? Ended up tearing the rim off a case and sticking it in the die...those RCBS stuck removal kits really work! Anyway, the "rim bending" on the insufficiently lubed cases made unloaded/sized cases tough to chamber and lead me to believe the cases weren't sufficiently sized...till a case got stuck that is.

2. Also, as some have mentioned above he didn't have the seating die set up properly. This caused the hideous looking shoulders.

Posting so someone can learn from our mistakes no matter how humbling...'specially if you are also unfortunate enough to be a "self-taught" reloader like me.

Thanks again to all who helped.