Can't get good eye relief prone on LPVO

[Ch0b0]

I'm new to LPVOs and decided to get a premium one for my first. I have a Razor Gen III 1-10X LPVO mounted on a Badger C1 1.7". I'm on the shorter side so my AR has a 11.5-12" LOP. I can just barely squeeze two fingers between the stock and my arm if I make a L shape with my arm while holding up my rifle to guess my LOP. Any further out and the rifle gets too unwieldy to hold up.

With that LOP I simply cannot get any sight picture even at 1x while prone. I'm just way too close when prone. I have the scope all the way forward in the rings and the mount itself is as far it can go. It's a little far away when I'm standing upright, but workable.

The obvious solution is to extend the stock while prone. However, Ideally I'd have a rifle that I can shoot standing and prone without adjusting the stock as this is meant to be my self defense rifle. I have a few questions:

1. Would I be able to get a better sight picture up close with another LPVO?
   1. I was originally weighing in between the Razor and ATACR, but thought I could save $800 on something that seemed up to par.
2. Did I basically discover LPVOs don't work with my body profile?
3. Is there something else I could try to make this setup work?

Here is what it looks like mounted, for any interested:

 

[TheOE800]

It literally has an adjustable stock.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

It literally has an adjustable stock.

This.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Short answer:

Just adjust the quick adjustment stock and live your best pew pew life.

Long answer:

If it’s a self defense rifle, then you’re still setting it up for your situation and engagement. If you’re prone you’re likely either taking longer shots or in an ambush position, which means you have time to adjust a stock one or two notches. If it’s bedside (eww) then it’s indoors and you’re staged at the spot for standing…but also indoors I’m assuming you’re at 1x with the brightness set appropriately so eye relief +/- 1-2” (aka 1 or 2 stock notches) won’t matter.

Environment/situation dictate setups and settings.

If you truly want to never touch anything, then leave your stock in a position you like and just train for your most likely scenario and then focus down your training in areas you’re weakest in for that particular setup.

…or just buy an offset and pop a red dot on top. This will gain you immediate street cred on the internet and solve your eye relief and stock concerns

 

[Emerson0311]

Self defence shooting from the prone is an oxymoron. If you have time and space to go prone, you have time to extend the stock. Most of the type of issues you are having go away if you spend a fraction of the cost of that LVPO on ammo for practice.

 

[SuperBoot]

I think the real thing that needs addressed is your shooting mechanics if the longest LOP you can handle when standing is 11.5”

How short are you? Do you frequently get denied entry to roller coasters?

 

[mi650]

If you're stuck with the short LOP, get a mount with more forward cant. Something like an LT139.

 

[Forward543]

Are you putting the rifle in the pocket of your shoulder, or are you interfacing with a more medial collar bone point of contact?
highly recomend a more medial point of contact. Make sure your spine is parallel to the bore, with the stock as close to center of your body as possible.
Also is your face too low/too high on the cheek riser? I really like a super low cheek riser to make a jaw weld instead of cheek.
These things should make your head in the same place all the time, regardless of position.

 

[Ch0b0]

Short answer:

Just adjust the quick adjustment stock and live your best pew pew life.

Long answer:

If it’s a self defense rifle, then you’re still setting it up for your situation and engagement. If you’re prone you’re likely either taking longer shots or in an ambush position, which means you have time to adjust a stock one or two notches. If it’s bedside (eww) then it’s indoors and you’re staged at the spot for standing…but also indoors I’m assuming you’re at 1x with the brightness set appropriately so eye relief +/- 1-2” (aka 1 or 2 stock notches) won’t matter.

Environment/situation dictate setups and settings.

If you truly want to never touch anything, then leave your stock in a position you like and just train for your most likely scenario and then focus down your training in areas you’re weakest in for that particular setup.

…or just buy an offset and pop a red dot on top. This will gain you immediate street cred on the internet and solve your eye relief and stock concerns

I was hoping for some clever idea to make it all magically work, but I think you're right. I'm still curious how the Razor eyebox compares to some other LPVOs (mainly the ATACR), but there a no places around me that have these optics to try out. I already have the ARC ring cap for the Badger, so maybe more internet points are in order with an offset. Set up the LPVO for prone shooting with the stock out. At that point I just start thinking if a MPVO+offset would be better, however.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Self defence shooting from the prone is an oxymoron. If you have time and space to go prone, you have time to extend the stock. Most of the type of issues you are having go away if you spend a fraction of the cost of that LVPO on ammo for practice.

Also this.

 

[Ch0b0]

Are you putting the rifle in the pocket of your shoulder, or are you interfacing with a more medial collar bone point of contact?
highly recomend a more medial point of contact. Make sure your spine is parallel to the bore, with the stock as close to center of your body as possible.
Also is your face too low/too high on the cheek riser? I really like a super low cheek riser to make a jaw weld instead of cheek.
These things should make your head in the same place all the time, regardless of position.

More pocket of the shoulder. I guess if my head is shifting that much between the two positions then something is flawed with my technique since it's not consistent. I'll try the medial approach.

 

[FuhQ]

11.5" LOP???

 

[Ch0b0]

11.5" LOP???

View attachment 8116531

Where did you find my picture!?

 

[Huskydriver]

A2 stock ftw problem solved !

 

[M8541Reaper]

I was hoping for some clever idea to make it all magically work, but I think you're right. I'm still curious how the Razor eyebox compares to some other LPVOs (mainly the ATACR), but there a no places around me that have these optics to try out. I already have the ARC ring cap for the Badger, so maybe more internet points are in order with an offset. Set up the LPVO for prone shooting with the stock out. At that point I just start thinking if a MPVO+offset would be better, however.

I have an ATACR 1-8 DMX on my LMT MRP in a 1.5” badger (I’d prefer a 1.7” but I had the 1.5 on hand). I like it a lot but I can’t compare to a Razor because I never put hands on one.

 

[TheOE800]

A2 stock ftw problem solved !

Kid needs an A1.

 

[Thriller]

I can’t stand the Vortex offerings - especially the 1-10x…major fisheye parallax to my eyes. Not even close to what I would consider “good”, yet folks rave about them. Would try out different optics so I could make an informed decision if I were you. Good luck

 

[Huskydriver]

I can’t stand the Vortex offerings - especially the 1-10x…major fisheye parallax to my eyes. Not even close to what I would consider “good”, yet folks rave about them. Would try out different optics so I could make an informed decision if I were you. Good luck

Yea .... Not sure I would consider vortex a "premium" offering.....

 

[M8541Reaper]

Yea .... Not sure I would consider vortex a "premium" offering.....

 

[TheOE800]

Yea .... Not sure I would consider vortex a "premium" offering.....

Holy Christ you can’t just summon the poors like that.

 

[Capt_Right]

They all have pretty much the same eye relief. Whenever I see a LPVO not mounted as far forward as possible, they either don’t shoot prone, or have to adjust their stock all the way out first. In your case your LOP is on the lower side for an LPVO, so not surprising you need a little more to make prone work.

 

[Ch0b0]

I have an ATACR 1-8 DMX on my LMT MRP in a 1.5” badger (I’d prefer a 1.7” but I had the 1.5 on hand). I like it a lot but I can’t compare to a Razor because I never put hands on one.

Is the smaller FOV a big deal as some make it to be? If it blocks for FOV as much as a chunky red dot it doesn't seem that big of a deal to me. I figured the low FOV was related to somehow making it more durable. The way the Razor just "disappears" is neat, though.

They all have pretty much the same eye relief. Whenever I see a LPVO not mounted as far forward as possible, they either don’t shoot prone, or have to adjust their stock all the way out first. In your case your LOP is on the lower side for an LPVO, so not surprising you need a little more to make prone work.

I wonder if all the complaints about the Razor eyebox/relief are people expecting miracles out of the 10x. I find it a little difficult even when my stock is adjusted, but not terrible. I took the Razor through some CQ training classes at 1X and didn't have many issues. The fisheye didn't bother me once I adjusted the diopter. The Razor is likely fine, but I still keep thinking about switching to an ATACR, though...

 

[M8541Reaper]

Is the smaller FOV a big deal as some make it to be? If it blocks for FOV as much as a chunky red dot it doesn't seem that big of a deal to me. I figured the low FOV was related to somehow making it more durable. The way the Razor just "disappears" is neat, though.

I wonder if all the complaints about the Razor eyebox/relief are people expecting miracles out of the 10x. I find it a little difficult even when my stock is adjusted, but not terrible. I took the Razor through some CQ training classes at 1X and didn't have many issues. The fisheye didn't bother me once I adjusted the diopter. The Razor is likely fine, but I still keep thinking about switching to an ATACR, though...

No it isn’t.

You can always grab the ATACR, put em side by side, and if you don’t like it sell it and consider the loss a rental fee. You can also grab your razor and head to a shop near you that has an ATACR in stock and put em side by side before you buy.

Another option is heading to a local two gun match and look around for anyone with an ATACR and ask to look through it at the end of the match.

 

[Ch0b0]

No it isn’t.

You can always grab the ATACR, put em side by side, and if you don’t like it sell it and consider the loss a rental fee. You can also grab your razor and head to a shop near you that has an ATACR in stock and put em side by side before you buy.

Another option is heading to a local two gun match and look around for anyone with an ATACR and ask to look through it at the end of the match.

I think that's what it'll come down to if I want an in-person comparison. Some online outlets will let you return the scope as long as you don't mount it so that's another option. I don't even think there are two gun matches anywhere close to where I live.

 

[Thorbeast]

You will need a longer lop when prone vs standing. It's not an optic problem, switching optics won't change it. When you are standing, your shoulder/collar bone/pec are right below your cheek/jaw. When you go prone... The shoulder/collar bone/pec shift a bit behind your cheek/jaw, which is why you need a longer lop when prone.

 

[shoobe01]

Just to +1: that is how optics work. Set up for proper eye relief stock-out in prone, should be a nice 1-2 clicks out when offhand. As a general rule you'll be 1x offhand, magnified in prone, so there is some leeway in the eye box at 1x and that helps a lot also.

This sort of thing can be a pain in competition, but for war and defense, prone also usually means you have some time on your side (the bad guys are far away, etc) so you walk around at 1x and stock in, then it's okay to take the (very little time) it takes to do this adjustment when you settle into a prone position.

Good to also test yourself on the range, once set up, and try it at the wrong setting. You can often do okayish (with poor followup) with the stock in the wrong position once you know the gist of where you head should be; can crunch up or even shoot with the butt off the shoulder. Not well, but a skill worth being able to do.

 

[Capt_Right]

On paper the ATACR has the biggest eye box, but I find it like looking through a toilet paper roll (it tunnels bad). The distortion at the edge of the vortex is the compromise for such a huge image. I would take that any day as the scope body just disappears.

 

[acudaowner]

 

[Ch0b0]

I ordered the ATACR and it arrived yesterday (thanks free overnight shipping!). It's not mounted to my rifle, but after playing with them side by side I definitely prefer the NightForce. The FOV did not bother me one bit. I also preferred the 1x, the eyebox, and I don't need the full 10x. I will be selling the Razor.

I guess next step is to mount it with good eye relief while prone with the stock out a little bit and find the middle ground where 1x still works well while standing and the stock in.

 

[inertia]

I am amazed by the lack of accurate advice in this thread. For reference I own the atacr 1-8 vortex 1-10 and a bunch of other top lpvos. I am also 5'5" tall and run a short lop. 1000% the problem here is you using the WRONG MOUNT for a razor. The razors have by far the longest eye relief of the top lpvos you need a specialized long relief mount. Vortex sells one made by seekins jp sells a real long one. There are others but I assure you many people have abandoned that scope because they don't have it far enough forward just mount it correctly. Also the atacr has by far the worst eyebox of any high end lpvo I own, by far, it's terrible for real shooting.

 

[RayDBonz]

Yep. You need a 'hyper extended' mount with more cantilever. That will allow the scope to be mounted farther forward.
Geissele, LaRue, Nightforce and others make them. There are also 'service rifle' mounts that are even more extended. But those are typically only in 30mm diameter and are 1.3"- 1.35" tall. A little lower than the 'optimal' 1.5" AR mount height.
Another option is an extended scope rail that would allow you to use your current mount. This would add only 1/2" of height.