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Can't Get Standard Deviation Out Of The 20's

S

sig2009

Full Member
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 24, 2017
667
151
FL
So I chrono a bunch of my 6.5 Creedmoor reloads and I can't get them out of the 20's for standard deviation.

Tikka T3 CTR rifle 20" barrel
Brass full length sized.
Shoulder bumped back .002
No Neck sizer bushings used
Same headstamp brass trimmed to 1.910
Primer pockets cleaned and uniformed
Federal Match Large Rifle primers
Flash hole work done
Auto powder measure with the same powder charge for each round
All bullets seated off the ojive with Forster Ultra Seater Die
Hornady ELDM and Nosler RDF 140gn bullets used
Diamerter of neck with loaded rounds .290
5 shots per each load and bullet mostly IMR 4350 and H4350


Standard Deviations run from low 20's to high 20's with spreads from low 20's to mid 60's. Velocities average 2550 to 2600. But I cracked 2736 with Reloader 17.

Even with the Hornady ELDM factory 140gn out of the 20" barrel gave me avg 2590FPS with standard deviation of 27.0 and spread of 76

Is it possible that the 20" barrel is not capable of obtaining low standard deviations?

I'm going to try different primers first. I have read that the S&B large rifle primers have a lower SD than the Federal Match Primers.

Is there something I'm missing here that I should be doing? Any help would be appreciated.



 
Skookum said:
No matter how carefully assembled my loads, my SD's didn't drop into the single digits until I started annealing necks.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Was shooting with a buddy with a Tikka T3 Tac A1. He was on his second or third reload without annealing his necks and he was getting SD'S of 6.0.

He shot 5 of my reloads that were giving me SD of 20. In his rifle he shot them and got SD of 11.
 
Play with your charge weight. I have tried 3 different powders and no clue how many charge weights before I settled on 43.6 grains of H4350. .1 grains of powder can make a difference. At least it did in my 20 inch Tikka. I'm getting 2698 average with a ES of 19.
You might also try a beam scale. My beam is more accurate than any electronic scale I have ever used.
 
One thing about reloading is that EVERYONES procedure is unique.

For example, saying "interesting, my friend doesn't anneal but his SD is still low" doesn't mean it will/won't work for you.

What if if he doesn't anneal but he uses an expander ball/mandrel to uniform his necks somewhat but you don't?

My suggestion(s) are:

post your reloading regimen in detail from start to finish.
Great you bump your shoulder back .002"
-how did you measure?
-did you use an expander ball?
-did you size the neck?

You mention all seated off the ogive... what do we get with that info?
Whats your jump length?

Barrel length doesnt matter for this; it's going to be load development.

Like corndogs suggested, read OCW and do it properly. From your response it sounds like you picked the charge that had the tightest group and went with it. That doesn't mean squat unless it's backed by chrono data (which it isn't).

Dont change components unless/until you rule everything out, and at that I only recommend that to very experienced hand loaders who has a purpose behind switching components.

Theres no need to try different powders/bullets/primers/brass under the sun until you find the absolute best; not at this time for sure.
 
GhengisAhn175 said:
One thing about reloading is that EVERYONES procedure is unique.

For example, saying "interesting, my friend doesn't anneal but his SD is still low" doesn't mean it will/won't work for you.

What if if he doesn't anneal but he uses an expander ball/mandrel to uniform his necks somewhat but you don't?

My suggestion(s) are:

post your reloading regimen in detail from start to finish.
Great you bump your shoulder back .002"
-how did you measure?
-did you use an expander ball?
-did you size the neck?

You mention all seated off the ogive... what do we get with that info?
Whats your jump length?

Barrel length doesnt matter for this; it's going to be load development.

Like corndogs suggested, read OCW and do it properly. From your response it sounds like you picked the charge that had the tightest group and went with it. That doesn't mean squat unless it's backed by chrono data (which it isn't).

Dont change components unless/until you rule everything out, and at that I only recommend that to very experienced hand loaders who has a purpose behind switching components.

Theres no need to try different powders/bullets/primers/brass under the sun until you find the absolute best; not at this time for sure.
Click to expand...


I may have found what I think is the issue. It may be the scale which was constantly throwing an error code. Looking at the error code appears that the error appears when the charge is 0.5 gn over. I did a factory reset with the PACT scale and a calibration. I loaded more up and going to try this week.

On another note the factory Hornady 140gn eldm ammo says on the box fps a little over 2700 fps. Well the chrono with my Tikka 20" barrel told me the 5 shots averaged 2550fps. How can this be? Barrel length?
 
sig2009 said:
I may have found what I think is the issue. It may be the scale which was constantly throwing an error code. Looking at the error code appears that the error appears when the charge is 0.5 gn over. I did a factory reset with the PACT scale and a calibration. I loaded more up and going to try this week.

On another note the factory Hornady 140gn eldm ammo says on the box fps a little over 2700 fps. Well the chrono with my Tikka 20" barrel told me the 5 shots averaged 2550fps. How can this be? Barrel length?
Click to expand...
Definatlely barrel length is the difference, plus the factory specs will never be close or the same as any barrel. Personally I throw all my charges .1 grain shy of my target and trickle up on a Gempro 250. I check both scales every 10-20 rounds to be sure they are still on while I'm loading 100-300 rounds. Consistency is key and if your scale drifts or looses calibration in the middle of loading your going to have a few rounds that have high or low MV.

 
Well I managed to get some consistent SD in the 8's today with the Nosler 140gn RDF with the ladder test. The Hornady ELDM'S are a work in progress but it looks like the rifle is liking the RDF over the ELDM.

This is what I found today doing my ladder test with the Nosler 140gn RDF with 42.0gn H4350

The first thing I noticed is that the Federal Match primers have a higher SD than the standard S&B large rifle primers. The S&B gave me better SD and spread than the Federal Match primers

5 shots with varying depths. S&B Large Rifle Primers.

Nosler 140gn RDF with 42.0gn H4350
.050 off lands
SD 12.2
Spread 29
Velocity 2522

.060 off lands
SD 12.3
Spread 30
Velocity 2537

.080 off lands
SD 8.8
Spread 23
Velocity 2522

.100 off lands
SD 8.9
Spread 21
Velocity 2511

.110 off lands
SD 8.7
Spread 21
Velocity 2519

I'm going to load some to .120 and .130 off lands but it appears in my Tikka T3X CTR likes the shorter I go the better the results with the 140gn Nosler RDF.
 
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With H4350 in a 20" barrel and a Max load you're only burning about 95% of the powder charge in the barrel, less at anything lower. This can produce inconsistency into the mix quite easily. You also mention you're not running a neck bushing, what is your neck dimension and what kind of neck tension are you running? Also how are you obtaining this neck tension without a bushing? You also mention an auto powder measure, what kind and what is your variance per throw?
 
Skookum said:
No matter how carefully assembled my loads, my SD's didn't drop into the single digits until I started annealing necks.
Click to expand...

This. I got the AMP annealer and my first loads after annealing went to single digits. Now anneal after every firing of my precision rifle brass. Seems to have made all the difference for my purposes. YMMV. Just Sayin'...
 
YetiSlayer said:
This. I got the AMP annealer and my first loads after annealing went to single digits. Now anneal after every firing of my precision rifle brass. Seems to have made all the difference for my purposes. YMMV. Just Sayin'...
Click to expand...

I think it has more to do with OP's neck tension over the actual annealing itself (the annealing effects the neck tension too). OP is not using a neck bushing, which is not allowing him to control the tension. I used to believe messing with the neck tension was a tremendous waste of time. That is, until I went ahead and turned necks and got myself a bushing die.

Don't get me wrong, annealing is great, but I think he's still missing consistency is this regard.

My personal observations have led me to believe that turning necks and using applicable and consistent neck tension are some of the most important aspects of reloading if you want low SD's, ES's and super tight groups.
 
Why are you not using neck bushings?


I just loaded 40.0-42.0 going up in .2 grain increments. Using Lapua brass, H4350, CCI 450's, and 140 eld bullets.


4 of the strings of fire were single digits and the 42.0 load was 10.4 SD. This was brand new brass and first firing.


My next round is going to be 42.0, 42.1, 42.2,42.3 and 42.4. We'll see how they do.


I will say the Lapua brass probably made a huge difference though. With my Hornady I was getting single digit SD's but they were all over the place depending on what day and what piece of brass was in the group.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
FALex said:
I think it has more to do with OP's neck tension over the actual annealing itself (the annealing effects the neck tension too). OP is not using a neck bushing, which is not allowing him to control the tension. I used to believe messing with the neck tension was a tremendous waste of time. That is, until I went ahead and turned necks and got myself a bushing die.

Don't get me wrong, annealing is great, but I think he's still missing consistency is this regard.

My personal observations have led me to believe that turning necks and using applicable and consistent neck tension are some of the most important aspects of reloading if you want low SD's, ES's and super tight groups.
Click to expand...

Agreed!
 
When shooting your load development - keep track of each shot and the order each casing was fired. Here's why. Look at your chronograph data for outliers. Shots that spike in velocity (up or down). In a group of 5 shots if one casing produces a much higher/lower MV it can make the whole group look like it has a higher ES/SD than the remaining 4. Mark this casing and set aside. It could be that casing has a slightly different capacity, neck wall thickness, etc. . . Assuming that all casings are alike ignores it as a variable and you can spend a lot of time and consumables chasing low ES/SD.
 
It's probably brass. I could never get low SD with Hornady 6.5 Creed brass, no matter if I annealed or not. Always in the high teens or 20's.

Since switching to Lapua brass, and NOT changing a thing about my reloading otherwise, my SD's are always 3-7 fps now.
 
Skookum said:
Bushing dies don't guarantee consistent neck tension, and no method will work worth a damn until your annealing is right.
Click to expand...

There's nothing that can "guarantee" consistent neck tension, I said nothing about guarantees. However, it definitely mitigates some of the "slop" and obvious inconsistencies in the necks of various cases. To imply there are some sort of guarantees in the production of ammunition is asinine and obfuscates the fact that, whether you anneal or not, you still should be using a fucking bushing die.

On that note, I'd like to throw out my shameless plug for the AMP Annealer...holy shit, talk about a bitching system. No more fucking with the "cherry red, maroon glow" bullshit in a dimly lit room. And better yet, no more Tempilaq! I know they're expensive, but if you get a few buddies to throw in a few bucks each, you'd have an AMP to use.
 
Like others have said, neck tension is everything. The biggest single thing that helped me was switching to a mandrel/neck expander to set my neck tension. After that, swallowing the bullet to get a Giraud makes it easy on the labor side.
 
Skookum said:
That hurts my feelings :(. I guess the success I've had with plain old Forster dies has been a total fluke. I am ashamed, I should have known better.
Click to expand...

Ok, so your Forster works for you. Will it work for me? Will it work with various types of brass? I have a friend that runs an RCBS non-bushing die because it gives him .002 tension on his Lapua brass. However, he can't use it if he is going to run Winchester brass. I'll let you guess as to why that is...and it's not because he didn't anneal the shit, either.

Just as in your other posts, you are addressing something that was never an issue to begin with. I'm fucking thrilled your Forster works for you. Guess what? Nobody cares. You have a focus problem. You are attempting to make an argument of something I care not to argue about. First it was a "guarantee," on neck tensions that not one person even mentioned, and now, it's a fucking Forster die. See that boat? It's your ship sailing.

The issue, and thus, the conversation is involving how the OP can potentially improve his/her SD's/ES's, not which dies work and which do not work.

I believe LL typed this out for you Skookum :

https://www.snipershide.com/why-snipe-the-messenger/
 
longshot300 said:
Best accuracy and SD's are going to be seen earlier in the brass life and I never load the brass from even low-pressure rounds more than 10 times. Second point: Don't be cheap, use worn-out brass forever and expect best results.
Click to expand...

This is such a broad statement to make and should have been worded to say depending on the caliber, load and brand of brass used, some are going to see better accuracy and SD's in their earlier life..... Many of us have shot 6.5x47L well over 20 times and I know guys that are on 50+ firings.. I have loaded Lapua 260rem to over 15 firings as well. I suspect we will see this same great brass life with the new Lapua SR 6.5cm brass... This also comes down to what load your shooting. I also only Anneal every 3 or 4 firings and see my best accuracy on the 2nd firing after annealing. I was talking to Josh at PVA a few months back about this and he said he was experiencing the very same thing.
 
longshot300 said:
Concur. Xanax may be in order. :) Re the OP: The question was how to get low SD's. Neck tension is important as stipulated by all. Work hardening is a "thing". Unless controlled for (annealing regimen) The die used is irrelevant because tension will both change and vary from piece to piece. So, Skookum is correct. Bushing dies are wonderful things and allow the controlling of tension and minimize working of the necks. Suggesting their use is undoubtedly good advice if one is going to use a variety of brass. So, FALex is also correct. What is incorrect is the assertion that neck turning is absolutely required, or that consistent tension cannot be achieved without bushing dies if the dimensions of the die are good with the particular brand of brass one uses. I have used bushing and non-bushing dies. I have used both Forster and Redding non-bushing dies with specific brands of brass for years with spectacular results and consistently single-digit SD's.

I have done a considerable amount of testing on the effects of turning necks on large samples of brass of different types. I went through a "neck-turning phase" too years ago, trying to emulate the results of friends who were 1,000 yard benchrest competitors. After a few years of hand-neck-turning thousands of pieces of Federal and Winchester brass and seeing marginal improvement, and ZERO improvement over Lapua factory unmodified brass, I stopped (excepting brass which was going to be shot in tight-neck match chambers that required it). In some cases, turning the necks (cleaning up the exterior 100%) led to the necks being thin enough to begin to negatively affect the consistency of tension, and to cause problems with bullet concentricity and set-back from rough handling and recoil. When cycling in my AR10's the result was set-back during feeding. For someone who never shoots away from a bench or square range these are probably not issues, but for someone who will use ammo in the real world, neck tension has a secondary function, that is not served by reducing neck thickness. Bottom line is that if you use high-quality brass with consistent neck wall thickness (like Lapua) there is almost nothing gained by turning necks in terms of reducing SD's. On crappy brass, it can help. Point here: Don't use crappy brass and save time and effort.

Regardless of what brass is used, whether the necks are turned or unturned, whether you use bushing or standard dies, annealing is going to be required. I currently anneal every 3rd or 4th firing based on the brass brand and base hardness. At some point, the work-hardening of the rest of the case becomes an issue as well. Since you can't anneal the case body, that means it has a limited working lifespan. Best accuracy and SD's are going to be seen earlier in the brass life and I never load the brass from even low-pressure rounds more than 10 times. Second point: Don't be cheap, use worn-out brass forever and expect best results.
Click to expand...

You "hand neck turned thousands of pieces of Federal and Winchester brass" huh? Must have paws like the Hulk! I use a mini lathe and it gets done quickly. I will agree but also disagree you longshot. First of all, I have seen significant improvements in my SD's and ES's from turned vs non-turned brass. Granted, these lots have been from Federal (probably the worst brass I have ever used outside of CBC), Remington and Winchester. Obviously, not the cream of the crop. As such, they had substantially inconsistent neck thicknesses as you went around the necks. Turning these necks enough to get them down to .013" has not caused any issues and has allowed me to shoot for that .289 tension that most 6.5 bolt gunners run with; I'm lucky because that also works in my gasser too, most semi's need at least .002", but I digress. Going down to .013" is not making the necks too thin, but that is an obvious consideration when turning. You noted your improvements were "marginal," but it's difficult to qualify what that means without data. The point being, whether your improvements were "marginal," they were improvements, nonetheless.

I do not turn my Lapua brass, either. It is relatively consistent thickness all the way around those necks.

I opt to run crappy brass for a few reasons: one is cost, 100 Winchester cases is 45.00. Secondly, shooting so many matches, I lose cases all the damn time. Sometimes shooting said matches with my gas gun does not help my cause. I have lost Lapua cases, it drives me ape shit.

If I were hand turning my necks, I would 100% agree with you. I'm not. It's a fairly quick process and makes me feel more confident about my loads.

Just another mitigated factor on the road to consistent precision, right?
 
Thanks all for the suggestions so far. I annealed my next reloads and am ready for the range. Just waiting on my buddy to get his new chrono. I will report back with the results.
 
Have you shot the loads at distance and checked vertical spread?
I don't fully trust chrony's
I do trust what the bullet tells me.

 
I recently went through this with my load development. I can shoot out to 1500 yds, so ES is more important to me than SD and while I was getting SDs of 10 or 11 and ES of about 30, it was a little too much. I think the most important aspect of a load is finding the flat spot for velocity, i.e a range where the amount of powder doesn't really effect velocity. This will help account for scale inaccuracy as well as changing temperature extremes. I started with an OCW load and found a accuracy node. Next I fired a traditional ladder test at 300 yds to find a flat spot and see if they correlated. After doing that I tweaked the load in .1 increments where I got an SD of 4-5 and ES of 19.

I load on a Forester Co Ax with Redding S type dies using a .290 bushing without an expander. I use Lapua cases lubed with imperial sizing wax. I follow that with a Sinclair expanding mandrel. I then brush inside the necks and finally prime using a Lee hand primer. My components are Berger 140gr Hybrid, Lapua Brass, CCI 450 primers, and H4350. Rifle is an Accuracy International AT with 24" 6.5 CM barrel. Velocities were recorded by a magnetospeed V3.

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padom said:
I also only Anneal every 3 or 4 firings and see my best accuracy on the 2nd firing after annealing. I was talking to Josh at PVA a few months back about this and he said he was experiencing the very same thing.
Click to expand...

My guess is you could change neck tension, seating depth or something to match your best performance with fresh annealed cases. Of course this takes a lot of time and components, barrel life and etc. to do the testing. I have a AMP annealer and their recommendation is to anneal every firing and they also state the brass hardens most on the first firing. That being the case I think one might expect to see differences between the first and second firing but who wants to fire the first time after annealing knowing you are giving up anything on accuracy.
 
Annealing. I never do it and get single digit sd throughout the case life. Annealing is not the holy grail. It is a personal choice in an attempt to increase case life when done right but from what I've seen most don't know what the hell they are doing. For those it is a colossal waste of time and resources. Speed, low sd and es. Don't sweat the small stuff.

BTW, the OP figured it out.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Today's disgusting results again at 100 yards. I did notice a couple things today. Weather was in mid 60's. These reloads actually shot worse than the previous ones where it was in the mid 80'S and humid so in my rifle it appears to like the hot weather.

Second. These reloads were neck sized and bumped. Not FL sized like I usually do. They gave me worse SD/ES than when I FL size and bump shoulder. So now I am by process of elimination seeing what works and doesn't work and it looks like this whole bushing neck sizing is a crock so I won't be doing that any longer. Only Fl size every time and bump.

I'm also looking to replace this Tikka 20" barrel with a Patriot Valley Arms 24" or 26" barrel. I'm convinced it's not possible to get any low SD/ES with a 20" barrel.

IMGP0106.JPG
 
Last edited:
I didn't read the entire thread but for a 20" barrel you should probably look at a faster powder. I had similar results until I switched to a faster burning powder.
 
Sixfivesavage said:
I didn't read the entire thread but for a 20" barrel you should probably look at a faster powder. I had similar results until I switched to a faster burning powder.
Click to expand...

What would you suggest for powder? I have been using H4350 and IMR4350.
 
I had some issues related to similar and while the thread title is different than what your specifically after, it does have some good info in there and some quickload info pertaining to shorter barrels and powder burn on 6.5 creed. Long story short, hybrid 100v and RL16/17 are a good choice for that length as well as a few others.
 
Sixfivesavage said:
I had some issues related to similar and while the thread title is different than what your specifically after, it does have some good info in there and some quickload info pertaining to shorter barrels and powder burn on 6.5 creed. Long story short, hybrid 100v and RL16/17 are a good choice for that length as well as a few others.
Click to expand...

Could you link the thread? I have been looking for it all week.
 
Sixfivesavage said:
I had some issues related to similar and while the thread title is different than what your specifically after, it does have some good info in there and some quickload info pertaining to shorter barrels and powder burn on 6.5 creed. Long story short, hybrid 100v and RL16/17 are a good choice for that length as well as a few others.
Click to expand...

Reloader 17 is the same burn rate as H4350 so if I am looking for a faster powder that is not one of them. For faster powders Nosler lists Reloader 15 and IMR 4895.

https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/65-creedmoor/
 
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