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Gunsmithing Cant see the forest for the trees

wnroscoe

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 12, 2006
3,907
56
NW Louisiana
Recently I learned something new concerning gunsmithing and I'd like to share it with you.

We as individuals get caught up in our day to day activities, in our ruts and we get fat dumb and happy. After chambering numerous barrels I sent my Range Rods back to PTG for inspection and re-certification. 99% of the barrels I work on are Krieger, always have been, probably always will be. My first Range Rod was a 6mm and it dated back to April 2007 when I started doing my own BR Rifle work. I found that over time with numerous barrels and residual lapping compound left in those barrels my rods had become scratched, all except the .30 cal rod that is. The 30 cal rod was spotless and has been in Krieger and Rock Barrels only.

The TIR of the rods were at .0000" but one of the scratches on my .284 Rod was .0002" deep. The problem was this, I indicated a barrel in to .0002", pulled the rod out and re-inserted. It was at .0003" Breech and .0006" at the end of the rod. Dikem proved the setup was good and I got 100% clean up with my facing cut but, I needed to know why the rod acted as it did.

Dave Kiff worked on this for me and during our conversation I checked a .270 Range Rod still in my possession that had been in one barrel, it had scratches on it that could barley be felt with my finger nail. The culprit had been found. Lapping compound left on the minor diameter of the bore. You see, if a scratch is .0002" deep and th erod is removed then reinserted the scratch locks up at a different point, maybe on top or on bottom. This will change your indicator reading as it did mine.

The Range Rods are hardened to around 50 Rockwell per Kiff and he told me the only thing that could do that would be lapping compound. I share this with you to let you know this, clean your barrels prior to indicating/machining and use a light coat of Marvel Mystery Oil on your Range Rods. Rifles I’ve built & owned have all shot lights out. Had I not tried an experiment I read about on BR Central I wouldn’t be typing this now.

Just thought I'd share. If we don’t try different things from time to time or try to maintain the very tightest tolerances we can and double checking ourselves as we go, we stop learning the "Whys & How Comes" and stay in our ruts. I want to continue learning as I think you do, that’s the reason for this post, good luck to you and remember, think outside of the box.
 
Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creeter2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WN, Quick question. Why use a range rod as opposed to a long stemmed indicator? </div></div>

The minor diameter of the bore is/was a reamed hole prior to rifling; the major diameter is/has been cut via single point to produce the grooves. I think you'll come closer to a truer reading with the piloted range rods vs the long stemmed intrepid. There's 101 ways to chamber a barrel, my way works best for me is really the only reason I can come up with.
 
Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crumpmd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the post.
I will clean my barrels now before I work them. But keeping your level of tolerance is out of my league for now. I will require another trip around the block. Or two. </div></div>

Your closer than you think, dont sell your self short. There's 1000's of guys that dont know 1/2 of what you do concerning barrel chambering.
 
Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

Thanks for the input, I'm about to be taking on a very large project and this could help make it a tack driver, will also use range rod to indicate Internal threads in Action!
 
Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creeter2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the input, I'm about to be taking on a very large project and this could help make it a tack driver, will also use range rod to indicate Internal threads in Action! </div></div>

Creeter,

I use a similar but different procedure to chase my receiver threads. It incorporates tight fitting bushings in the bolt raceway with a hardened ground mandrel inserted into the bushings. I indicate off of the mandrel for facing cuts, lug abutment cuts and thread clean up. The process is illustrated on my web page under "Receiver Truing"
 
Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

Just curious, but how did you measure a scratch to know it was .0002?
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Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

Just so you all know, Roscoe is a tenacious SOB. We talked about this issue last week and it literally baffled me as I too was satisfied with my process. It never occured to me after seeing .0001" or less on my indicators to remove the rod and re-insert it to verify my readings. Thanks Roscoe....
 
Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: montana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that is cause you are from cali and wierd things are in cali I wouldn't touch
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Hell I've had little living creatures shipped to me inside barrels so it isn’t just the weird things here in Kalifornia
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Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: montana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that is cause you are from cali and wierd things are in cali I wouldn't touch
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</div></div>

Hell I've had little living creatures shipped to me inside barrels so it isn’t just the weird things here in Kalifornia
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You gotta stop using those bargain basement barrels from Barney's Muffler Shop....
 
Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skunkworks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: montana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that is cause you are from cali and wierd things are in cali I wouldn't touch
wink.gif
</div></div>

Hell I've had little living creatures shipped to me inside barrels so it isn’t just the weird things here in Kalifornia
grin.gif
</div></div>

You gotta stop using those bargain basement barrels from Barney's Muffler Shop.... </div></div>

LMAO
 
Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

My intention was to make you think about your process and procedures. Double check your set ups and your indicating process/tools. Whether you flushed, cleaned or both prior to reading this thread you'll be thinking about it now for sure. It's never the big things that matter, it's always the small details that'll bite you square in the ass. My Range Rods and .500” ground mandrel will be here Thursday, freshly certified and tested. I’ll know (because I trust Dave Kiff) with 100% certainty that they’re straight with zero run out. What about yours?

If this thread helps one person become a little better, makes them try a little harder or makes them think a little more, I’ve accomplished what I set out to do.

Now, what about your dial indicator, mics and calipers???
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Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skunkworks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: montana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that is cause you are from cali and wierd things are in cali I wouldn't touch
wink.gif
</div></div>

Hell I've had little living creatures shipped to me inside barrels so it isn’t just the weird things here in Kalifornia
grin.gif
</div></div>

You gotta stop using those bargain basement barrels from Barney's Muffler Shop.... </div></div>

WOW, I didn't know Frank at Bartlein owned Barney's Muffler Shop..
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Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bsp212</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I'm going to have Roscoe build my next rifle.... </div></div>

Can I interset you in a .308, maybe an M24ish clone?
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Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bsp212</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I'm going to have Roscoe build my next rifle.... </div></div>

Can I interset you in a .308, maybe an M24ish clone?
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</div></div>

Sounds pretty good. What's the lead time on something like that?
 
Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How often does Remington check their range rods for trueness?

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Range what........???
 
Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bsp212</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bsp212</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I'm going to have Roscoe build my next rifle.... </div></div>

Can I interset you in a .308, maybe an M24ish clone?
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</div></div>

Sounds pretty good. What's the lead time on something like that? </div></div>

I'll make an exception for you or was it an example out of you
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Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DebosDave ©</div><div class="ubbcode-body">William,

Thanks for raising awareness! I love this site for not only the wealth of information that exists here, but the willingness to share! I think we can advance the industry through this type of cooperation. Thanks again man!

Dave </div></div>


No problem Dave, that’s what it all about. It seems button barrels may be more suspect than cut barrels as most of the cut barrels are lapped prior to rifling and button are lapped after rifling. Just clean real good prior to machining and you should be fine no matter whose barrel you’re using.
 
Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 30 cal rod was spotless and has been in Krieger and Rock Barrels only.</div></div>

I know of at least one Schneider you stuck your rod in
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Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bsp212</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 30 cal rod was spotless and has been in Krieger and Rock Barrels only.</div></div>

I know of at least one Schneider you stuck your rod in
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</div></div>

Forgot about that one
 
Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

Heck i already knew that.....Not! Its good to see that my gunsmith is trying to do even better work when he has already built me a .2 rifle.Nice work roscoe
 
Re: Cant see the forest for the trees

Our barrels all get prelapped before rifling and finished lapped after rifling. Some other barrel makers do this as well. Won't speak for all. I know Krieger does it this way also unless they changed it since we've been gone.

Randy, That was a good one on the muffler shop. If I owned a muffler shop it would be for silencers though!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels