Case support in neck sizing die?

[Mike_R]

I have seen the Redding competition sleeve neck sizing dies, and it got me thinking about how a normal neck only sizing die works. I am considering adding an intermediate step to take my .223 brass from .254 down to .242 and I think running a neck die first before a FL die will give me what I want based on a German Salazar article and recommendations here on the Hide.

Does a neck only die need to be ordered for the caliber being loaded? If it is really only the neck and the bushings (like redding and wilson) fit all the redding dies is there any reason I couldn't use one die with various bushings to resize different calibers? Like a WSM die with bushings for .223, and 7mm mag? Or is there something I am missing? I understand if the die is too long the die will bottom out before the neck reaches the bushing, but dies can be shortened right?

Any ideas?

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

Please reference the Salazar article and provide a link. I have great respect for this man and would like to get an idea of where you are coming from before I tell you where to go.

On the surface your question seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I have never found the need for anything other than a FL die for anything I load and that list has been long over the years. Never said I didn't ever use a neck die. I simply said I never had a use for one.

 

[Mike_R]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

The article can be found here:
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html
If I am reading it right he suggests when you have a long way to go (sizing wise) it is prudent to size the brass down in two steps for less spring back and superior concentricity. I was thinking of using a neck bushing die from redding first followed by either their type S fl sizer or a honed Forster sizer to get me to my final dimension. I think my dimensions could be considered a long way to go.

I guess what I am really asking is if I have to get a specific neck sizer for each cartridge or can I do it with one die and separate bushings for each caliber?

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

Ok I have rea dthe article and disseminated the data.

For what rifle are you loading this 223 ammo? This is the most important question at this point.

You need to buy a seperate die for each cartridge I should think. But what do I know, I don't use neck dies even if Salazaar called me on the phone and called me by name.

If I am not reading his data wrong, and I don't think I am, his data would indicate less runnout using a FL die once overall, than using a neck die at all. This puts an extremely large grin on my face. Whether he used turned necks or unturned the FL die trumped the lot. He said himself this is a small sample. What I want to know is what did all this mean at the target?
I would say if you are of the class and caliber shooter that German is, all this may matter to you. Even if you are those things I have doubts that all this step sizing means anything other than piece of mind. In short I don't think this means a hill of beans when it comes time to pull the trigger and mark the target.
Still think Salazar is a legend. If I didn't think he was a smart dude I wouldn't have built an '06 with his reamer print. And it is a hammer....even with my handloads.

 

[Mike_R]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

The rifle has a free floated WOA SDM barrel, a 1 in 7 twist match SS barrel with a Wylde chamber.

I dont mean to be disrespectful but I can't find anywhere in the data that says that the FL sizing resizing only produces superior results. Reviewing the data would suggest that there is less issues with die induced concentricity problems at the first step of the process in chart 1 i.e. the column that terminates in 1.1 but that is not complete sizing- it is only a pass with the bushing, a step on the way down to an adequate resize.

The point of using 2 dies wasn't just to reduce runout but also has other benefits as explained in the article:
"When sizing with bushing dies, such as the Redding Competition and Type S dies, it is well known that a neck diameter reduction of more than 0.005" should be accomplished in two steps, with each step sizing the neck down no more than 0.005" and preferably less (see October 2009 article about neck tension). This two-step procedure not only minimizes sizing die induced concentricity deterioration, but it also yields a finished neck diameter equivalent to the bushing's nominal size. It is often found that when using a single bushing to size more than 0.005", the finished neck diameter is smaller than the bushing's nominal size. Those are the basic reasons for two-step sizing."

I understand that I am no German Salazar when it comes to shooting but I don't think that means I shouldn't try to produce consistent ammo. I have an extra station open on my 550 so adding a "step" doesn't really matter as far as time is concerned.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

Yes, I agree. This is a solution looking for a problem. There is a reason for going (for instance) from a 284 to a 6mm/284 in stages. The reason (generally) is shoulder collapse, but there are probably others?

If I understand the question correctly, the man wants to know if he can buy a "bushing holder" that will suffice for a wide number of cartridges. That is not practical and seems to verge on reinventing the wheel. Specific dies for specific applications is the way to go, other than a universal decapping die which kinda works, in specific situations. BB

 

[dieselten]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

if your intention is to reduce the neck diameter of your fired .223 cases down in increments rather than all at once - then get a LEE collet neck sizer die. It is cheap and reduces neck diameter to whatever you want with minimal run out.

 

[Mike_R]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

Fair enough. I should have asked my question differently.

Where else besides the neck bushing does a neck die contact the brass?

I am not trying to prove a point or judge anything, I just don't understand how a neck only die works.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

That's mostly how it works, but it does offer some support in holding the case straight so that you are centered on the bushing. BB

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

You are correct, I am viewing an incomplete sizing and got the cart before the horse. After the 6th reading of the article I understand what is going on and am even more miffed at a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

I mean no disrespect to you either kid but you are handloading for an AR15. Its ok you can say it...say it with me.... AR15. I asked you what gun you were using and you told me what barrel you were using, but this old man ain't stupid yet.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I understand that I am no German Salazar when it comes to shooting but <span style="color: #CC0000">I don't think that means I shouldn't try to produce consistent ammo.</span> I have an extra station open on my 550 so adding a "step" doesn't really matter as far as time is concerned.</div></div>

Let me get this straight are you saying I can't produce consistent ammo?

JUst kidding I am not really mad...really. Look articles like this should have a huge banner at the top and bottom, "THIS IS A TEST THIS IS ONLY A TEST". I still see no actual report on what this means at the target. If you plan to do this for an AR15 you are wasting your time, I don't care who made the barrel or how its free floated. I have built a few ARs so I know how accurate they can be, but you are wasting your time with this kind of process in anything besides a BR rifle or F-Class and even then I hold all of this suspect.
I have an idea why don't you go over to teh accurate shooter forum and contact German and ask the man himself. Don't forget to tell him you are loading for an AR15. Good luck with all this.

You asked a question indicating you want to cut corners already. You want to use one die in a manner consistent with a universal die. Why don't you do this thing just like German layed it out to do, he pretty well makes it clear how to do this. If you are going to do this do it just like has been laid forth instead of cutting corners.

 

[Mike_R]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

I appreciate the tone. Makes me feel like I am getting advice from my grandfather again. We all know how inquisitive "kids" like myself can be.

In all seriousness I understand I asked a poorly worded question (that some consider irrelevant) and shouldn't expect an answer. My intention was only to use a neck die to see if it did translate to some physical (ie measurable) difference. 2 weeks ago I posted a question and the reply was to use step down bushings... a member here on the Hide suggested it, Zediker said it, Salazar said it, others said it. Maybe worth a shot you know?

I didn't understand the concept of the NO die so I asked. I would like to give it a try in a few of the calibers I load for, not sure if it is beneficial... Guess I will just have to try it and see if I can measure any results that would either support or refute those found by others. I understand sample size (our n is not sufficiently large for the CLT to apply and all that jazz) but either way when you have results that are in agreement with theory in might warrant further testing. Thanks again.

 

[DarkD]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

Just from observation, it seems like there is more than one question to address here. So is it better for concenitricity and the life of your brass to resize in two step, sure. But more importantly, are both steps always needed? No. Some will find that in a boltgun that you only need to neck size every time, and use a body only to bump the shoulder every 2nd or 3rd time (which depends on your chamber, load pressure, age of brass, etc.)

To answer the original question, a neck only makes sizing based contact on the inside and outside of the neck (up to the shoulder if properly aligned). On the down stroke, then neck is compressed to the diameter of the bushing used and on the up stroke the mandrel opens it back up enough to clean up and allow seating of the bullet.

Other thing I am hearing kicked around is AR-15. In this case, the process is semi moot. You need to effectively full length size each time for reliable chambering. Can you do that is two steps? Sure, is it buying you anything in terms of accuracy, maybe. It all depends on your rifle. In terms of concentricity, you are helping your brass to be the best it can be with the least amount of overworking in the two stage process, especially when you can omit the body/shoulder bump step.

Hope that helps to get staight to some of the questions being asked.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

I just fail to see the point, if the question now is, neck resizing, in two stages? I have mentioned this before, on this site. Some of the newer shooters, just getting into handloading are asking pretty far out questions based on obscure solutions to problems not fully understood.

To answer the question very plainly, there is absolutely no reason on God's green earth, to neck size for an AR in multiple stages. I will challenge this Comrade to show proof, if this is actually what he is advocating.

These new guys read exotic info and blend it into their fertile mind and all it does is make simple concepts more difficult to understand. They are unable to see what is a universal truth and what is way off on a tangent.

Now, specifically. I am of the opinion that neck sizing for semi-autos is a misapplication. I would rather see small base full length dies, far more, than neck sizing. Neck sizing is more applicable to custom cut chambers and even then, the bushing dies are a better deal. I personally prefer a Wilson die cut with the same reamer as my barrel, if you have a savvy gunsmith willing to do these things. At the same time, a loaner barrel really helps to fireform several hundred cases without affecting the life of your premium barrel.

The above information is just not applicable to the vast majority of military comp shooters, but the new guy reads it and suddenly, he wants a loaner barrel, but doesn't understand why!

Anyway, this thread is amusing. BB

 

[Mike_R]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

This thread is amusing! I have got a good chuckle out of it. I never expected such an "exotic" question to be so inflammatory. I think a reading comprehension test should be part of the registration process. Not to mention the whole "Don't attack the new guy" sticky at the top of this subforum. I won't go whining to the mods, but please read the thread. Nobody is obligating you to respond.

DarkD, I appreciate your post. Your explanation is quite helpful.

As far as the whole new guy aspect, I guess I need to up my post count writing irrelevant crap on peoples posts. I am a "new guy" with a low post count. I have been reloading for 6 years and I am coming up on 12,000 primers I have popped out and replaced. I have never used, or seen a neck only die in the steel. I have done this a bit. I also have read and shot a bit. Maybe this is exotic for you... but I understand FL resizing and I want to understand step sizing.

To address everyones concerns with my desire I will spell out what I have been saying from the beginning.
I want to use a NO die to start my resizing, then follow up with a FL die, either honed to final size or with a bushing, to resize my brass.

I am not claiming it is better, that is what I wish to determine.

As far as bushing dies for custom chambers, I posted the barrel I am running instead of "say it with me, AR15" because it does have a more precisely machined and accuracy oriented chamber than an average AR.

If I had a "custom" chamber (I am guessing you mean a tight throat chamber) I wouldn't want to resize in 2 steps because the total amount sized would be small. Thats not the point.

I never said I want to NO size without resizing the body. There is no need for a small base sizer (totally irrelevant, and likely detrimental to brass life in my rifle).

This is not the only rifle I reload for hence the question about universality of bushings. I have not determined if this is helpful for my brass. That is why I asked, and also why I didn't plan on going and buying a NO die for every cartridge I load for.

I appreciate the challenge "comrade" but I don't have data for you. Thats why I asked the question. Perhaps at some point I can perform a more detailed evaluation. That is what hypothesis testing is about. Then I could CONTRIBUTE to this community.

Salazar was suggesting this technique for a rifle with an adequate chamber for a Highpower rifle that might see dust, in his own words. My rifles chamber has 2 thousandths more clearance than the rifle in question, perhaps less with thicker brass like LC. A function expedient throat means that two step sizing is more beneficial, not less.

I am working on mag length loads, so there is a bit of jump before the bullet engages the lands. I might be less concerned if I was soft seating or jamming it into the lands.

I am trying to refine my technique so I can later apply it to my R700 and FN SPR. That will go to GAP for a barrel after I finish paying for school.

Again, thanks to all who have contributed. Everyone has a right to speak their mind.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

No one is attacking you Mega, calm down.
The point we are trying to make...or one of them, is that SEEING the results if there are any will be pretty difficult with an AR15. Even one with a Wylde chamber.
Sometimes the view is not worth the climb, but I salute you for gearing up and grabbing the ropes.
You have inspired me to buy another concentricity guage and play around with some ideas. I sold my NECO years ago when I got out of 1000yd BR along with most of my other high dollar reloading voodoo kit. I have come full circle after 30 years of loading to a more practical straight forward approach to my loading, and my shooting has never been better. Hopefully I have helped some people save some money and learn some things about diminishing gains. I am not trying to discouarge you or crush your dreams.

 

[Mike_R]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

Point taken, I appreciate the clarification. No dreams were crushed in the making of this thread haha I have thicker skin than that. I don't get discouraged easily.
I am not sure if I will see the results on a gauge, on the target, in brass life etc... that is why I want to experiment.

I guess I should probably add that my current FL sizer I am using, an unmodified RCBS die is leading to elliptical case necks. I don't know whats causing it, I thought maybe abrupt and over sizing have contributed to this issue.

I am all for practical reloading techniques, I hope to achieve both volume and quality. Still, if someone has seen a positive result I am interested in experimentation.

I am well acquainted with the concept of diminishing gains, but in my case other than the purchase of the die and bushing I have nothing to lose in this. If it works out well I will thread it in the Dillon and call it good.

Thanks again. If you do experiment with the gauge and techniques that you wouldn't mind sharing to increase our understanding of runout and the resizing process I would love to hear about it. I know when I get things worked out I will post up my findings.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

I guess I need to work on my comprehension and my talent for reading between the lines? Hey, I'm a newbee too, do I get a mulligan? If there is input you dislike, by all means contact a moderator. I can see I'm not needed here, but I tried. BB

 

[Mike_R]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

Mulligan for sure! Sometimes I think that the wall of text on the internet gets to people. Its much easier to be an expert or mistake someone for a newbie when communication is limited to typed words. I see you are in Upland, that's by Ontario right? Anywhere good to shoot up there? We might get along better in person.

As far as the neck die is concerned I think I will pick up one for .223 and one for .308, and just for curiosity's sake I will run the .248 bushing in the .308 die and size a few cases just to see what happens. I might have to shorten the die a tad but that's not much of an issue.

Again thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

Yes, Upland was incorporated for a little over 100 years ago, but before that, it was called North Ontario. To tell you the truth, it's hard to do much hunting without driving past Barstow, 75 miles.
I seldom hunt in this state, but in three weeks, I will be killing stuff in Texas. I'm retired and have nothing better to do. These days, I do very little competitively but am very interested in accuracy as it applies to live targets. I'm not completely unknown, should you google me BB

 

[DarkD]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

Give a jingle if you make it as far east as Houston. We have some good places to shoot around here, it is Texas after all! Some really nice hunting around the state...where you planning on going?

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

I have a return invite (as a guest, of course, not a customer) from a gentleman that owns a fine ranch just outside of Pecos; quite a drive from Upland but, unfortunately, still some distance from Houston. But, I do appreciate the thought. Thank you, DarkD. BB

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: megarush</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Point taken, I appreciate the clarification. No dreams were crushed in the making of this thread haha I have thicker skin than that. I don't get discouraged easily.
I am not sure if I will see the results on a gauge, on the target, in brass life etc... that is why I want to experiment.

I guess I should probably add that my current FL sizer I am using, an unmodified RCBS die is leading to elliptical case necks. I don't know whats causing it, I thought maybe abrupt and over sizing have contributed to this issue.

I am all for practical reloading techniques, I hope to achieve both volume and quality. Still, if someone has seen a positive result I am interested in experimentation.

I am well acquainted with the concept of diminishing gains, but in my case other than the purchase of the die and bushing I have nothing to lose in this. If it works out well I will thread it in the Dillon and call it good.

Thanks again. If you do experiment with the gauge and techniques that you wouldn't mind sharing to increase our understanding of runout and the resizing process I would love to hear about it. I know when I get things worked out I will post up my findings. </div></div>

First a disclaimer

If you have the money experiement away.

You have given me a lot more info, dialog is good. You are using an RCBS die right now. RCBS dies are good dies some better than others. I have used RCBS dies for years, some of the first I ever owned but I do NOT use them for anything except hunting ammo or plinking ammo. I am not saying that is all they are good for simply saying I have had better results with Redding, and Redding isn't the best but damn close. My dies for 1000yd were Wilson's. These dies could be one of your sources of runout.
You are using a Dillon press. I assume progressive. I Do not have any experience with progressives so I can only speculate that this could be another source of runout. Generally speaking if you will be loading match ammo you need to do so on a single stage press. I know the Dillon can be run single stage but as I understand the design of the press it uses a shell plate and the cartridge is not in a straight line with the ram. I do believe this could be another source of your runout.

I run a Rockchucker and Redding dies for my custom rifle and pistols(XP and Contender). I get .5 MOA or better with my loads and do nothing special. I tumble and trim and debur of course but the thing I feel is most important(and a lot of BR guys think this too) is annealing the brass. This makes it easier to size and I believe it sizes more consistently(soon to test this theory but I am certain I won't be breaking any ground that hasn't been plowed before).

Your choice in brass is very important as well. If you want to push the 223 accuracy you need Lapua or Nosler, taking nothing away from LC some of it is absolutely great stuff. I know I have advised people they are wasting time with Lapua in an AR but in your case and what you are trying to do....well start with the best and eliminate that factor right out the gate.

The Wylde chamber is technically not a match chamber in the truest sense of the word. As I understand it is an intermediate between 5.56NATO and the standard 223. That really has no bearing here but I thought I would throw that in.
I built an AR with a Wilson SS heavy contuor for service rifle matches. It has a 1-8 twist and 5.56 chamber. It will routinely shoot 3/4MOA with 80gr SMKs, a dose of IMR4320 and a CCI450 primer. I like this powder because, believe it or not, the barrel does not seem to heat up near as quick, could just be my imagination but I don't think so. I use Winchester brass in that rifle. I haven't shot it in a few years now, as I just don't have time to run 2 matches a month and shoot in a third during the summer, and the guys at the range were starting to rope me in on match director duty. Long story short I love the AR, have built 3 of them, 2 of which were Whispers and have a 4th in the developing stages.

You may be able to eliminate your runout by getting better dies and a press more suited to precision ammo. Not saying the Dillon isn't a good press or RCBS dies are crap. Just saying your chances of success in this endeavor may not hinge solely on step sizing your brass.

 

[Country]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

You could use a Lee collet neck sizing die to avoid downward sizing pressure . You could also place a large extra O ring under the locking nut to help float the die to increase concentricity. If you are really worried about case concentricity then don't use a " full length sizing die " at all.
Use a body die in combination with the Lee collet neck die and seperate the two sizing operations. This is pretexed on the condition that the statement "full length sizing die "is in fact a die that sizes all the case in one pass .

 

[Mike_R]

Re: Case support in neck sizing die?

Alright excellent now we are getting closer to being on the same page. I do all my development on a rock chucker, and once I find a load I like I set it up on the dillon. So far I haven't had any changes in runout that I can attribute to the press (I check rounds off of the RC first then the dillon). I will "clamp and float" the toolhead/dies even though that is a hotly contested topic just for piece of mind.

I was planning on changing dies for this project, no point in neck sizing when its just going to get jammed all the way to .237 and then expander-mutilated back up.

When I pick up dies for this project I will probably get the forster fl die, and get it honed to .242 although I might use the redding type S with bushings. I like the forster seaters with the sleeve so that is what I will be running for a seater.

I used the LC brass as an example because its thick, I have lots of remington and winchester brass. I like to work with the commercial brass much better. I have tried the hornady, and couldn't tell any difference. My next long range AR upper will be fed lapua (6mm RAT wildcat).

Now as it relates to the original topic I have had a couple suggestions for the lee collet die. If I get the redding type S I could remove the bushing and it would become a "body" die. Does the collet die allow you to tune constriction? I want to get enough to avoid setback while chambering without crunching the brass too much. Which die would come first? The body or neck?

As an aside, the wilson barrels for the ARs can be pretty good! It is my understanding that my WOA barrel is a wilson 1 in 7, I know its not a match chamber but it's chambered a bit more carefully than most commercial barrels. It loves the 77gr Nosler CCs with varget if I seat them long, but mag length rounds aren't quite living up to my expectations.

I feel we are making progress! Thanks everyone!