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Case too small for minimum powder charge

wbeard

Private
Minuteman
Nov 29, 2011
58
0
49
Ohio
I decided to load up some coyote killers for my 30-06. I'm loading

110gr Hornady VMAX with my old faithful IMR4064. Min recommended charge is 55-56 depending on the recipe. Problem is I start compressing at about 52g...which I thought is odd to have to compress to get the min. load.

My instinct is just load some 50g and call it a day but I want to look for anyone else with experience/advice.
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

Try a long drop tube off your thrower or off a funnel, that may pack it down a little or try a different powder like a ball instead of the stick. That being said, compressing powder while seating the bullet isn't a big deal.
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I decided to load up some coyote killers for my 30-06. I'm loading

110gr Hornady VMAX with my old faithful IMR4064. Min recommended charge is 55-56 depending on the recipe. Problem is I start compressing at about 52g...which I thought is odd to have to compress to get the min. load.

My instinct is just load some 50g and call it a day but I want to look for anyone else with experience/advice. </div></div>

My Speer #13 is showing their 110gr Spire-SP bullet at a COL of 3.000" and a min/max charge of 54gr/58gr of IMR 4064 and neither charge is listed as a COMPRESSED charge according to them, so I can't really say what's up?

Is your scale working properly? Are you seating them below 3.000"?

I know it's not the exact same bullet, but they have to be close enough.

Chris
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

Yeah...that's why I'm confused. 54 grains litterally is flush with the top of the casing.
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

A little faster powder, maybe?
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah...that's why I'm confused. 54 grains litterally is flush with the top of the casing. </div></div>

Whoa that's way too full, are you sure your scale/meter is good? I fill .308 shells with 45gr IMR4064 and am just at the shoulder so with a 30-06 shell you should have plenty of room left. Double check your weight with a different scale.
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I decided to load up some coyote killers for my 30-06. I'm loading

110gr Hornady VMAX with my old faithful IMR4064. Min recommended charge is 55-56 depending on the recipe. Problem is I start compressing at about 52g...which I thought is odd to have to compress to get the min. load.

My instinct is just load some 50g and call it a day but I want to look for anyone else with experience/advice. </div></div>



You need to check your scales before loading anything else. I just read your post and went to check a 30-06 case with 4064. 54gr should just be up to the shoulder, 64.5 is even with case mouth.
shocked.gif
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gun_poor</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I decided to load up some coyote killers for my 30-06. I'm loading

110gr Hornady VMAX with my old faithful IMR4064. Min recommended charge is 55-56 depending on the recipe. Problem is I start compressing at about 52g...which I thought is odd to have to compress to get the min. load.

My instinct is just load some 50g and call it a day but I want to look for anyone else with experience/advice. </div></div>



You need to check your scales before loading anything else. I just read your post and went to check a 30-06 case with 4064. 54gr should just be up to the shoulder, 64.5 is even with case mouth.
shocked.gif
</div></div>

wow!!! Thanks!
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

no problem! let us know what the problem was.
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

Double checked scale at several weights and it's dead on. oh well. I'll just shoot them with 50g. and see how it does. I don't know how they came up with 54 grain min. because that loads pressure is still way above the min pressures of the heavier bullet loads.
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

Not a good idea. Under charges can be just as bad as over charging.
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Double checked scale at several weights and it's dead on. oh well. I'll just shoot them with 50g. and see how it does. I don't know how they came up with 54 grain min. because that loads pressure is still way above the min pressures of the heavier bullet loads. </div></div>

Dude...you NEED to triple check it then....read gun_poor's post again.

I don't have any 4064 or else I'd do it myself.

I'd SERIOUSLY look at 3031, 414/760, 335, etc.........

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gun_poor</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You need to check your scales before loading anything else. I just read your post and went to check a 30-06 case with 4064. 54gr should just be up to the shoulder, 64.5 is even with case mouth.
shocked.gif
</div></div>
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">I'll just shoot them with 50g. and see how it does.</span></span>... </div></div>

No disrespect intended but I would never do this. Never shoot a round when you think there may be some safety related issues involved. That's not the smart way to check things out. Figure out and solve the issue before firing.

EDIT: Just remembered I have IMR4064 and 30-06 brass on hand. For unsized brass after firing in a M1 Garand at 2.484" in case length I get 54 gr of 4064 at the top of the shoulder and a completely full case is at 61.5 gr. This is for filling with a Lee dipper, with a drop tube you could get a little more in.
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

I checked my Hornady manual (7th edition). It shows for 110gr Vmax and IMR4064 min load is 52.2gr, max load is 58.0gr. I also double checked my scales and 54gr of IMR4064 should leave plenty of room in a 30-06 case. One of us is doing something wrong, I don't mind it being me if it will save a gun, a hand or worse.
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

I had an old Winchester Western 30-06 case laying around. I put the max charge of 58 grains of IMR 4064 in it. Dumping it fast with just a short drop tube, brought the powder level to the bottom of the neck leaving plenty of room to seat that short 110 V-Max. Dumping it slowly with a 6" drop tube, put the powder level down into the shoulder. Hornady used Hornady/Frontier brass to develope their load data. wbeard, what brass are you using? Try this test, if you're certain your scale is accurate, fill one of your 30-06 cases to the mouth with water, and weigh the quanity of water it will hold. The W-W case I used held 68.2 grains of water.
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

Good suggestions...I'll try the water trick.

Guess I wasn't really worried about an under pressure situation since the 54g min load on Hogden's site still shows what i felt was excessive pressure for a min load.

This brass is R.P. but I guess I'm in the habit of dropping a couple of grains (1.5) because most of my brass is IMI (military)
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good suggestions...I'll try the water trick.

Guess I wasn't really worried about an under pressure situation since the 54g min load on Hogden's site still shows what i felt was excessive pressure for a min load.

This brass is R.P. but I guess I'm in the habit of dropping a couple of grains (1.5) because most of my brass is IMI (military) </div></div>

I just measured 4064 on my ChargeMaster 1500 and used a fired Winchester case, that dropped right into my Wilson case gage and measured almost perfectly.

54grs of IMR 4064 using a 168gr HPBT seated deeply, was not even close to compression. Adding 58.1grs, that bullet was compressing, but still had a caliber's width of bullet seated lightly on top of the column, which was at the neck.

I had some Speer 110gr SPs and I could push the jacketed bearing surface in well past the case mouth, before I even touched the powder column. I could have pushed it in deeper, but I wouldn't be able to twist it out with my fingers.

Chris
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bayou</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">I'll just shoot them with 50g. and see how it does.</span></span>... </div></div>

No disrespect intended but I would never do this. Never shoot a round when you think there may be some safety related issues involved. That's not the smart way to check things out. Figure out and solve the issue before firing.

EDIT: Just remembered I have IMR4064 and 30-06 brass on hand. For unsized brass after firing in a M1 Garand at 2.484" in case length I get 54 gr of 4064 at the top of the shoulder and a completely full case is at 61.5 gr. This is for filling with a Lee dipper, with a drop tube you could get a little more in. </div></div>

I did the water check and the cases hold 68g of water. understanding water has a different weight and no air I still figure at that volume the difference can't be more that a few grains....so I pressed fwd with the assumption I was just dumping powder very loosely. Shaking/tapping the case down a slight bit makes room for the max load now...I can fit about 59g and load it....

Thanks for all the help, but now I have to question the 50g I loaded being too little.

I load 110g Speer HP's at 50g which is .5 ABOVE the min load. so thats where I figured to standardize my 110g rounds at 50g...Figured externally the only difference between the speer and vmax was a ballistic tip so why should that change the charge?

Any thoughts?
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bayou</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">I'll just shoot them with 50g. and see how it does.</span></span>... </div></div>

No disrespect intended but I would never do this. Never shoot a round when you think there may be some safety related issues involved. That's not the smart way to check things out. Figure out and solve the issue before firing.

EDIT: Just remembered I have IMR4064 and 30-06 brass on hand. For unsized brass after firing in a M1 Garand at 2.484" in case length I get 54 gr of 4064 at the top of the shoulder and a completely full case is at 61.5 gr. This is for filling with a Lee dipper, with a drop tube you could get a little more in. </div></div>

I did the water check and the cases hold 68g of water. understanding water has a different weight and no air I still figure at that volume the difference can't be more that a few grains....so I pressed fwd with the assumption I was just dumping powder very loosely. Shaking/tapping the case down a slight bit makes room for the max load now...I can fit about 59g and load it....

Thanks for all the help, but now I have to question the 50g I loaded being too little.

<span style="color: #3366FF">I load 110g Speer HP's at 50g which is .5 ABOVE the min load. so thats where I figured to standardize my 110g rounds at 50g...Figured externally the only difference between the speer and vmax was a ballistic tip so why should that change the charge?</span>

Any thoughts?

</div></div>

The Speer .308, 110gr Varminter JHP bullets, part #1986?

My #13 Speer manual does not list IMR 4064 with that bullet, for the 30'06.

I'm sure it would be close, as they do list IMR 4350, IMR 3031, IMR 4895 and IMR 4227, but not IMR 4064.

Chris
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

Sorry....Sierra 110gr Jacketed HP referencing my "Complete Reloading Manual for the .30-06 Springfield" published by Loadbooks. (the small caliber specific manuals)
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

Is it possible you dumped the wrong powder back into the jug? Possibly something a bit less dense? Look closely at the powder in question and any powder you have on hand that may have been swapped with it. There is an obvious visual difference with some powders, not so much with others.
-Dan
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ddavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it possible you dumped the wrong powder back into the jug? Possibly something a bit less dense? Look closely at the powder in question and any powder you have on hand that may have been swapped with it. There is an obvious visual difference with some powders, not so much with others.
-Dan </div></div>

No...I am very meticulous with powder control. I leave the canister out next to the measure anytime there is powder in it. Plus, 4064 is my most used by far and I'm very familiar with its appearance.
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

Something is wrong here.

Is this happening with more than one case?

Is it possible there is something left, like tumbling media, jammed into the bottom of the case?

Can you see daylight through the flash holes?

Will a narrow screwdriver dislodge anything from the bottom of the case?

I had this happen to me with dampened polishing media, which is how I usually polish my brass.

I had added the moisture but failed to wait for the media to fully expand before I added the brass. Consequently, it was still expanding when it got inside the cases and blocked some of them partly up.

I only discovered it when some of the cases started to overflow when I was charging them. I was able to clear the cases with that narrow screwdriver, but it was a genuine pain.

Greg
 
Re: Case too small for minimum powder charge

different cases from different lots. I use Ultrasonic cleaning so nothing inside.