Rifle Scopes Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

[Bullwinkle]

Please bear with my noob questions, am travelling and on the blackberry trying to learn and I can't use the search right now.

Have read references to zeroing a mil/mil scope and and I'm a math dummy & nees some help here.

If your inital zero group is 2mil low and 2mil to the right do you move your reticle to the group to zero and would this be 20 clicks down and then 20 clicks to the right?

Thank you

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

first off stop thinking in the terms of clicks. To answer your question yes you would move the elevation up 2 mils and 2 mils to the left.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">first off stop thinking in the terms of clicks. To answer your question yes you would move the elevation up 2 mils and 2 mils to the left. </div></div>

What should I think of in terms of each "click" of the turret? This is confusing for me. Have finally figured out that each "click" on the mil/mil scope = 1/10 of a mil.

I'm sorry for my questions but am a long time pistol shooter and am trying to learn the art of long distance scope's and hitting what you aim at.

 

[Graham]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

I think he takes issue with the terminology: a 'click' is a Kilometer.

Call it one 'adjustment' instead of one 'click', because different scopes adjust by different amounts.

If you say 'one MOA', everyone knows how much that is. But if you say 'four adjustments', then everyone knows only how much you dial on your scope.

One Mil is, for you, 'ten adjustments' of travel on the turret.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

you hit it on the head Graham, i was referring to the "click" as stated by the OP as he was referring to it as the adjustment or .1 mil. Like Graham said if you say you need 2 MOA or 2 Mils everyone knows what that is. If you say you need 20 clicks people tend to get mind fucked and have no idea what correction to put on. I was just correcting per say your terminology.

 

[hydro556]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

If 10 clicks equals a mil, and you need 2 mils, that is 20 clicks.

Far easier to say "I need 2 mils up"

 

[Graham]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

The reason this is important is because, when you are working with a spotter, he will give you corrections in actual Mils (or MOA), for example: "Up two Mils, send another". You need to know that on your scope you are to implement twenty adjustments before firing another round. He gives you the actual correction; you implement it on the dial.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

Thanks for clearing things up, did not realize the word "click" could screw things up so much. Thanks for taking the time to learn a noob instead of bashing!!

 

[Rob01]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

It's not just the word but the actual counting of clicks. You need to go 10 mils on your scope are you going to count 100 clicks? Hopefully not. Hopefully you will dial to the 10 if it has that many in a revolution or if not then dial to what equals 10. Counting clicks on a scope is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Graham]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Counting clicks on a scope is a recipe for disaster. </div></div>Agreed. Rob just gave you lesson number two. Lesson number three is not dialing at all.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Counting clicks on a scope is a recipe for disaster. </div></div>Agreed. Rob just gave you lesson number two. Lesson number three is not dialing at all. </div></div>

Now if my shooting skills were 1/10th as good as the information here I'd be a world class shooter!

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bullwinkle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If your inital zero group is 2mil low and 2mil to the right do you move your reticle to the group to zero and would this be 20 clicks down and then 20 clicks to the right?

Thank you </div></div>

Ok, it sounds like you made an adjustment from your original zero and need help getting back. If I am correct in asking this, my next question is, did you zero your turrets when you set zero'd the rifle? I.E. Find your zero, loosent the turret set-screws and adjust the hash marks to zero. Reason I ask is if you do that the making an adjustment, whether for taking longer shots, using diffrent ammo...ect, simply logging the adjustment on a notepad i.e. 2 mil up/2 mil left is easily corrected by returining back to your zero mark on the turret.
Oh and you need to change your thought on the actual "moving the reticle". Most turrets say "bullet impact" as in One adjustment in this direction moves your bullet hole. If you are moving your shot impact left, the technically your reticle will be moving right. Confusing when its new, but think in terms of its all about controlling the bullet, not the scope.
So......If your shot is 2mil low and right, adjust for 2mil up and left. What helped me is look at your scope, you see Up Down Left Right. Put them in a sentence, "The bullet will go ______ if I turn it in this direction. " Hope this helped as I am currently sick and deprived of sleep.


Oh, and this is at 100 yds correct? Because tht is what 99.999999% of all scopes make their adj's for. 1/10mil, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, and even 1 moa. Unless its a BDC setup then its taylored to specific ammo/ rifle...ect. Confused yet?
So for YOU, and YOUR situation, with YOUR scope (if your distance is 100 yds/meters), turn your turrets 20 "clicks" UP and 20 "clicks" left. Shoot to confirm zero, if good, zero turrets, if this is the ammo you want to dedicate to it, anf your good to go.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Ok, it sounds like you made an adjustment from your original zero and need help getting back. If I am correct in asking this, my next question is, did you zero your turrets when you set zero'd the rifle? I.E. Find your zero, loosent the turret set-screws and adjust the hash marks to zero. Reason I ask is if you do that the making an adjustment, whether for taking longer shots, using diffrent ammo...ect, simply logging the adjustment on a notepad i.e. 2 mil up/2 mil left is easily corrected by returining back to your zero mark on the turret.
Oh and you need to change your thought on the actual "moving the reticle". Most turrets say "bullet impact" as in One adjustment in this direction moves your bullet hole. If you are moving your shot impact left, the technically your reticle will be moving right. Confusing when its new, but think in terms of its all about controlling the bullet, not the scope.
So......If your shot is 2mil low and right, adjust for 2mil up and left. What helped me is look at your scope, you see Up Down Left Right. Put them in a sentence, "The bullet will go ______ if I turn it in this direction. " Hope this helped as I am currently sick and deprived of sleep.


Oh, and this is at 100 yds correct? Because tht is what 99.999999% of all scopes make their adj's for. 1/10mil, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, and even 1 moa. Unless its a BDC setup then its taylored to specific ammo/ rifle...ect. Confused yet?
So for YOU, and YOUR situation, with YOUR scope (if your distance is 100 yds/meters), turn your turrets 20 "clicks" UP and 20 "clicks" left. Shoot to confirm zero, if good, zero turrets, if this is the ammo you want to dedicate to it, anf your good to go.
</div></div>

Right now I am just trying to learn and understand how the scope works and the intricacies that it brings with it. Since I've never owned a rifle with a scope before I'm trying to learn as much as possible so when we hit the range I have some idea of what I'm doing and how to put the book (forum) knowledge into practical application.

Now I know there is no substitute for quality training/shooting but hopefully the knowledge I've learned here goes towards cutting back my mistakes.

After doing lots of learning and research here I have ordered a SWFA SS 3-9x42 scope as it looks like this scope will be a great one to learn on and will work quite nicely on a AR15.

Yes zero will be at 100 yards but I plan on shooting at 25 to ensure on paper then going to either 50 and doing it again or possibly just moving to 100 yards.

 

[Graham]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, and this is at 100 yds correct? Because tht is what 99.999999% of all scopes make their adj's for...So for YOU, and YOUR situation, with YOUR scope (if your distance is 100 yds/meters), turn your turrets 20 "clicks" UP and 20 "clicks" left.</div></div>To paraphrase Gertrude Stein: 2 mils is 2 mils is 2 Mils. If your scope adjusts in different angular units at different distances, it's broken.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bullwinkle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now if my shooting skills were 1/10th as good as the information here I'd be a world class shooter!</div></div>Everyone starts somewhere.

Mils and MOA are angular units of measure. One MOA is 1.047 inches at 100, 2.04 at 200, 3.141 at 300, and so on. A Mil is just a larger angle than an MOA. The relationship is: there are 3.438 MOA in a Mil [3.6 divided by 1.047 equals 3.438].

This conversion factor of 3.438 is important to know, but by having Mil kobs to match your Mil reticle you won't need to do the extra step of converting Mils to MOA: it saves you having to covert the measurements you make with the reticle into MOAs on the dial. Using Mil knobs, the correction you see with your scope reticle is the correction you can dial if you want to dial it.

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

If you boresight the rifle to the scope to an object say around 50-60 yards you do not need to start as close as 25 yds. The goal is to get it zero'd with as few rounds as possible. Oc you are on paper at 100 its downhill from there. Although I have never boresighted an AR, maybe someone here can chime in on that one.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, and this is at 100 yds correct? Because tht is what 99.999999% of all scopes make their adj's for...So for YOU, and YOUR situation, with YOUR scope (if your distance is 100 yds/meters), turn your turrets 20 "clicks" UP and 20 "clicks" left.</div></div>To paraphrase Gertrude Stein: 2 mils is 2 mils is 2 Mils. If your scope adjusts in different angular units at different distances, it's broken.
</div></div>
Not to contradict Gertrude Stein, but if the target is at 200 yds,(some people use as a zero) then wouldnt the adjustment be half of what he would need at 100? Am I wrong in thinking a mil/mil scope adjusts 1/10 @ 100= 5/10 (1/2 mil) @500=10/10 (1mil) @1000 Which is why I stated that almost all scopes, not barring the fractional percentage of the uber-custom ones, set their adjustments to be at 100 yards or meters. I answered his "click" question to immediately answer his question as the correction of his terminoligy has already been made at least once, but nobody directly answered his question about the scope adjustments.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

If you sight the rifle in at 25 yards so that the point of impact is about 1 inch low from the point of aim, you will be on paper at 100 yards. It's a pretty easy way to get on paper.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you boresight the rifle to the scope to an object say around 50-60 yards you do not need to start as close as 25 yds. The goal is to get it zero'd with as few rounds as possible. Oc you are on paper at 100 its downhill from there. Although I have never boresighted an AR, maybe someone here can chime in on that one.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, and this is at 100 yds correct? Because tht is what 99.999999% of all scopes make their adj's for...So for YOU, and YOUR situation, with YOUR scope (if your distance is 100 yds/meters), turn your turrets 20 "clicks" UP and 20 "clicks" left.</div></div>To paraphrase Gertrude Stein: 2 mils is 2 mils is 2 Mils. If your scope adjusts in different angular units at different distances, it's broken.
</div></div>
Not to contradict Gertrude Stein, but if the target is at 200 yds,(some people use as a zero) then wouldnt the adjustment be half of what he would need at 100? Am I wrong in thinking a mil/mil scope adjusts 1/10 @ 100= 5/10 (1/2 mil) @500=10/10 (1mil) @1000 Which is why I stated that almost all scopes, not barring the fractional percentage of the uber-custom ones, set their adjustments to be at 100 yards or meters. I answered his "click" question to immediately answer his question as the correction of his terminoligy has already been made at least once, but nobody directly answered his question about the scope adjustments. </div></div>

I take a shot at 25 yards on a large piece of paper and then correct to where Lindy said and then go to 100. Takes 2 rounds at 25 yards. Not much.

And yes you are very wrong about your thoughts on mils. .1 mil at 100 yards is .1 mil at 1000 yards. I think where you are getting confused is the actual inch measurments of those graduations which isn't really needed to be thought about. .36" at 100 yards is .1 mil. At 1000 yards 3.6" is .1 mil.

We are trying to get him to stop thinking in clicks. So you confusing the point with saying .1 mil is different at different yardages doesn't help. If he is 2 mils low at 100 yards then he needs to dial up 2 mils. If he is 2 mils low at 1000 yards then he needs to dial up 2 mils. Yes the inch equivelant of those is different but you also don't need to think about the inches.

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

Then there is obviously a lot about mils that I do not know. I thought millirarian was just another unit of angular measurement like MOA.
Nevermind....I just realized where I fucked up, and I apologize for giving the wrong information. Wasnt trying to argue with anyone here, I was tring to figure out where I was wrong. I will shut up now and pay attention.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you sight the rifle in at 25 yards so that the point of impact is about 1 inch low from the point of aim, you will be on paper at 100 yards. It's a pretty easy way to get on paper.
</div></div>

Thanks, will try this when I get to the range.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If he is 2 mils low at 100 yards then he needs to dial up 2 mils. If he is 2 mils low at 1000 yards then he needs to dial up 2 mils. Yes the inch equivelant of those is different but you also don't need to think about the inches. </div></div>

This is what is confusing me.

If I am 2 mils low and 2 mils to the right then why not drop the cross hairs 2 mils and then move them 2 mils to the right.

Sorry this is so hard for me to understand, it seems easy but trying to understand the principle behind it is what is confusing me.

Have always been under the impression you moved the crosshairs to the bullet impact point to zero a scope.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

I think you're stumbling over technique. (I am assume you're sighting in here, not making range adjustments)

if I understand correctly, you shoot your first shot, move the crosshairs to that shot and then adjust the scope to the center of the bull, in this case up 2 mils, left 2 mils. This requires a solid rest for the rifle as you dial and watch for the crosshairs to hit center

OR

You could use your reticle to mil the offset and make the appropriate adjustment. No need to hold the rifle still while you make the adjustment, because you measured it using your reticle.

Does this make sense?

John

 

[NikolaiS]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you sight the rifle in at 25 yards so that the point of impact is about 1 inch low from the point of aim, you will be on paper at 100 yards. It's a pretty easy way to get on paper.
</div></div>

This site is a trove of little tricks like this. Thank you Lindy.
Nik

 

[Target In Sight]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bullwinkle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If he is 2 mils low at 100 yards then he needs to dial up 2 mils. If he is 2 mils low at 1000 yards then he needs to dial up 2 mils. Yes the inch equivelant of those is different but you also don't need to think about the inches. </div></div>

This is what is confusing me.

If I am 2 mils low and 2 mils to the right then why not drop the cross hairs 2 mils and then move them 2 mils to the right.

Sorry this is so hard for me to understand, it seems easy but trying to understand the principle behind it is what is confusing me.

Have always been under the impression you moved the crosshairs to the bullet impact point to zero a scope. </div></div>

If your POI is 2mil "DOWN" from your POA, then move your POA "UP" 2mils to correct it.
If your POI is 2mil "RIGHT" from your POA, then move your POA "LEFT" 2mils to correct it.

Keep this in mind and you are golden on both adjusting your scope or using Kentucky windage. Do not confuse yourself on whether to move crosshair or to move bullet impact.

Hope this helps,

Dyl..

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Chasing the zero/Mil/Mil scopes

The turrets are marked for moving the impact (hole) to your point of aim, not moving the reticle to your point of impact.

If you hold your crosshairs in the middle of the target, shoot, and impact 1 Mil low, then you will move your elevation in the direction marked UP by 1 Mil. Hold your crosshairs in the center of the target again and you should hit center of target.

Likewise, if you hold center of target and hit 1 Mil to the left then you want to move the imapact RIGHT 1 Mil, hold center again and you will hit center.

Once windage and elevation have been adjusted according to above so that your point of aim matches your point of impact (you hit what you aim at) then you have found your zero. Then it's just a matter of floating the knobs on your scope however necessary so that the '0' on the scope is displayed at that setting (probably involves removing some sort of set screw)

Clear as mud?