• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

  • Site updates coming next Wednesday at 8am CT!

    The site will be down for routine maintenance on Wednesday 6/5 starting at 8am CT. If you have any questions, please PM alexj-12!

Checking drop at 500yds

JCCinOhio

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 6, 2014
200
72
I'm just a basic shooter.. want to test my coyote gun's drop at 500yds assuming I can find a place to test. Assume I have a quality scope and 1/2 MOA or better rifle & ammo.

This sounds logical in my head, but checking to see if it works in practice. Instead of dragging out a 60+" target and measuring drop from point of aim... I assume instead of that I could use a smaller target and use the nearest full MOA mark on my scope, shoot my group, then measure how far above or below the group is from POA in MOA, then add or subtract to find actual MOA drop?

So my ballistic calc says it should be about 11 MOA for 500 yds. I could put the 11 MOA hash mark on the desired point and shoot a group. Then measure how far off it is. I have a labradar so know what the velocity is.. so I could then tweak my BC in the calc to get it to line better with the actual drop.

go
 
Yes, clicks are on.. It's a NF ATACR. I don't have any dope info past 185, getting about a 1/2" group at that yardage.
 
You can hold the 11 in your reticle or dial it. I'd dial it. Then shoot your group. See where your group is in your reticle and adjust your dope accordingly. Freshly painted steel makes it easy to see your group. Yes, it is as simple as it sounds. Just use your reticle for your ruler.
 
Without going into a novel on dope truing…..

Inside 600yds, velocity is going to have far greater impact than BC.

There’s many reasons both in the reading of velocity and within ballistics software that may cause the need to change the velocity in software from the measured value.

Don’t get stuck in the “but I know my velocity, I should never have to change it” mindset as that just isn’t logical with all the other variables going on.

Unless it’s a major change which would indicate something is wrong with the software inputs or chrono.



You can dial or hold. Makes no difference.
 
You spent good money on a scope with quality glass and turrets, use them. Holdovers can work well for quick shots but for truing your system the scope is a very precise tool and dialing will allow you to be more precise and consistent. Once you've established your dope you have both options.
 
Yes, clicks are on.. It's a NF ATACR. I don't have any dope info past 185, getting about a 1/2" group at that yardage.
You know the velocity, you know the bullet. You can find out your elevation to get a nominal barometric pressure. Fill in the little bits in any old ballistics calculator and you'll have your 500yrd dope. Like the man said, 500 is close enough for minor velocity variations to not matter. Given the scope you have, I'd generally trust the click values so just calculate, dial, fire. Don't make it harder than it needs to be.
 
Getting a place to shoot 500+ yards is my issue.. I was just asking if my process made sense, or looking for tips, so I could make the most of the chance I get to shoot that far.

So when I do get 500 yds.. I'll dial the 11 MOA and see where she hits.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Baron23
Brother, it really is that simple. So, get in your vehicle, drive to a range w 500, and go for it!

Best of luck, friend.
 
Ditto. You can dial an ATCAR up and down all you want and it will track.

Get a good 100 yard zero, velocity, elevation, temp and done.
 
All optics have some that won’t track. Just how it goes.

I’d advise to never assumed because it’s X brand, that it will always be g2g.

We’d be getting into the “should never bed a chassis” territory of logic.
 
When I got it a couple years ago I made a HEAVY base to mount it to.. leveled it.. and checked tracking at 100yds.. made a board with 30 MOA windage and elevation (31.42"..). Went up and right 30, good.. then down and left 30.. good.. I think I had 10 and 20 MOA checks in there too, I'd have to find my board.
 
Isn't a BAD tracking result 2% or more?
2% of 11moa is about a quarter MOA.
If you are confident in your shooting start with a 8" plate or splatter target for 500 yards.
 
I've got a 36" square plate of AR-500 in a frame that I can prop up ;) It's my 185yd target in my back yard. I'll drag that out in whatever field I get to use and shoot at that.
 
If you shoot and measure drop on the plate @ 500yds you will still have to use hash marks or click to repeat later on.
Using velocity and a 100 yd zero, and a calculator I get within 0.1 mil out to 600yd. Wish I could shoot 0.1 mil @ 600 :)
600 yd drop is 3.1 mils @ 75F, 3.3 @ 37F.

The range we go to has plates, of various sizes out to 800yd.
We can tap an 8" plate @ 700 yards (somewhere on the plate) with calculated dope.
 
Getting a place to shoot 500+ yards is my issue..
If you do live in Ohio it would be extremely worth your time to spend a day at Rayners Range in Blue Rock. That's about 30 min SE of Zanesville and for 20 bucks you can spend all day smacking steel from 250 to 1000 yards.

 
  • Like
Reactions: JCCinOhio
This is all you need, Weaponized Math

WeaponizedMathSheet .png


This is pre-Trued data, you can start at 200 or 300 (sheets begin at 300 )

200 = 2 MOA or .5 that gets you there within an inch

200 yard dope X 2 will get you started at 300 or you can go 1.96 for a dead on.

Once you have 300 you use weaponized math

300 yard dope X 1.75 = center strike at 400 yards

400 yard dope (mil or MOA) X 1.45 = center strike at 500 yards

Simple
 
Zero inputs with Weaponized Math and its Pre Trued

No Muzzle Velocity is needed, plus the computer will just change it, you use WPN Math to true the computer

No scope tracking errors it's built-in

No Sight Height, don't care

You can't make a mistake
Weaponized Math Worksheet .png
 
Zero inputs with Weaponized Math and its Pre Trued......


That Weaponized Math is pretty cool.. I'll have to give it a try. I know it doesn't matter with this method, but for the record I'll be shooting a .308 with 175gr SMKs. Just started reloading for this today. I think I can actually stretch out my range at home to 200, so I could start at 300 when I find a spot.
 
That Weaponized Math is pretty cool.. I'll have to give it a try. I know it doesn't matter with this method, but for the record I'll be shooting a .308 with 175gr SMKs. Just started reloading for this today. I think I can actually stretch out my range at home to 200, so I could start at 300 when I find a spot.
Weaponized math is for the lowest common denominator. For people who know nothing and need to be led by the hand.

If you have MV and sight height over bore (1 min with a ruler) enter your data in JBM Ballistics and you'll be with a tenth of a mil of center punching steel all the way to 700 yards.

I'm planning on going to Rayners Range the 11th or 12th. Let me know if you want to meet there.
 
Weaponized math is for the lowest common denominator. For people who know nothing and need to be led by the hand.

If you have MV and sight height over bore (1 min with a ruler) enter your data in JBM Ballistics and you'll be with a tenth of a mil of center punching steel all the way to 700 yards.

I'm planning on going to Rayners Range the 11th or 12th. Let me know if you want to meet there.
I appreciate that. However I just loaded my first rounds for this today.. not sure when I'll be able to test them as it's supposed to be pretty nasty next few days. I found a guy I know that has 500 yds I can shoot. Just need a good wind day.
 
Weaponized math is for the lowest common denominator. For people who know nothing and need to be led by the hand.

If you have MV and sight height over bore (1 min with a ruler) enter your data in JBM Ballistics and you'll be with a tenth of a mil of center punching steel all the way to 700 yards.

I'm planning on going to Rayners Range the 11th or 12th. Let me know if you want to meet there.
You’re an idiot

It’s not for the lowest, it’s pre trued data that can immediately put into an app to correct it completely vs trying to chase it as you described.

I use it every time I dope a rifle
 
You’re an idiot

It’s not for the lowest, it’s pre trued data that can immediately put into an app to correct it completely vs trying to chase it as you described.

I use it every time I dope a rifle
I don't chase anything. Your chart is great for someone who has no idea where to start. That's not me
 
You’re an idiot

It’s not for the lowest, it’s pre trued data that can immediately put into an app to correct it completely vs trying to chase it as you described.

I use it every time I dope a rifle
Don’t Discount the quality of Weaponized math. Using the tools available to solve problems, is the mark of an intelligent man. Creating such tools, is borderline genius.

I obtained a good velocity figure, using a quality Chronograph. took the rifle to a range that offered good wind protection and known target distances. Found the exact scope settings to hit every target from 300 yards to 800 yards.

After being introduced to Weaponized math, I cross checked my settings to those recommended by Weaponized math. They matched almost perfectly.

Round 2. Built a new rifle. The Chronograph my son and I own lives at his home, 485miles from my home. At the ranges in my home area, I sighted in the rifle at 100 yards, established a point of aim at 300 yards. Using Weaponized math with nothing else to go by, Having no real clue what the velocity was, I was easily able to hit targets at 400 - 500 - 600 yards.

The fun of shooting steel, is shooting steel, because shooting dirt is pretty much pointless as dirt is already pretty much dead. So, to the naysayers, ask yourself. “Do I want to hit what I am aiming at or do I want to spend countless hours shooting at paper, while everyone else is having fun?”
 
  • Like
Reactions: JCCinOhio
In to try weaponized math

Also in to see how far 308pirate makes it past this post before getting the banhammer
 
Last edited:
Weaponized math works. It takes out all kinds of possibilities of errors using a ballistics calculator. Ballistic calculators work too, but you have to get the inputs right and there are a lot. Picking the wrong rifle profile, having your density altitude set at mount everest, experimenting with a different 0 range and not changing it back to 100. These are all examples of mistakes that some dumbass has made.
 
That escalated quickly...

That is because he is a troll and offers nothing here but countering comments.

just look at his posts; he is the best at everything while providing nothing in return but a wise-ass comment. The number of reports on this account alone is staggering. I probably should have removed it years ago.

He never provides anything, but, Muh, I do it better myself; the worst example of an account on this site because he does it in the informational sections. He thinks he is in the bear pit, answering the political class.
 
I know you can probably just wing it at 300 yds, but playing with the numbers it looks like multiply 200yd value by about 2.6 to get to "Try Dope" at 300
 
200 should a straight X 2 or actually 1.96

2.6 seems way off when you consider most stuff uses 2 MOA and 300 uses less than 5 in most cases.

.5 and 1.0 Mil is generally correct, a very short 308 will be 1.5 mils at the worst so it would depend where you rifle falls within the caliber

But 2.6 would be an extremely slow caliber
 
2.6 was the factor, not the mils/MOA.

I looked at JBM ballistics for 3 loads.. the way I was seeing it was if you take the dope at x divided by the dope at x-100yds you get the factor.

so from JBM a 2650fps 175 SMK gives .5 at 200, and 1.3 at 300..so 1.3/.5=2.6 factor
2750 fps 175 smk gives .5 at 200, 1.2 at 300, so 1.2/.5=2.4
a 75gr 243 going 3300 gives .3 at 200, and 1.0 at 300, so 1/.3=3.3..

The factors given on the weaponized worksheet were pretty much spot on from 300 to 1000 for what a JBM solution provided (for a 2650fps 175gr).

300 was 1.75, dividing the data in JBM gave 1.77
400 was 1.45 and1.43 from JBM
500 was 1.4 and 1.36
600 was 1.3 and 1.31
700 was 1.25 and 1.25
800 was 1.24 and 1.24
900 was 1.22 and 1.21

So pretty cool way to get close without using a computer or knowing you velocity. Just one small sheet...
 
Last edited:
  • Love
Reactions: Enough Said
I honestly don't think you can do that, you have to shoot it, which is why computers have to be trued.

A 243 needing .3 is not gonna use 1.0 it's gonna be closer to .8 if that, so imagining the numbers will be "close" especially up close but they will also show a bit of deviation doing it that way.

Remember weaponized math was developed taking the dope for 16 students across 3 different classes, and then putting everyone into a spreadsheet. So 48 different rifles where the actual drop was recorded, and because we move people to a waterline you have an actual, You aimed here and hit here result. That said, nothing posted will be a miss on a plate. None of those numbers are a miss. If you need more than .3 to adjust you probably did something wrong. We also see a lot of people with their dope have lower elevation because they recoil back and up so the dope is off as they have to come down in elevation. I saw it with the riflekraft students too, many rock back in the bags and hit high so they have to drop their data. Weaponized math cannot fix back fundamentals.

308s are slow so adding .1 or .2 to a dope is easy, but just because JBM says it needs this, doesn't mean the rifle will agree.

The fringe velocities will always be slightly off, the edges are never perfect. We need velocities that sustain supersonic speed across the entire range and in case of stuff going slower the rate of decay will faster. The optimal is 1300 at 1000 yards at a minimum for dope to line up 100%. The faster you go the more predictive it will be.

Being .01 or .02 in the X factor is minor, would depend on altitude too, up in the mountains bullets fly better so after 4k DA you would pull a bit out of the numbers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JCCinOhio
If the 243 is closer to .3 at 200 and .8 at 300 that fits better with a guess of 2.6.. .8/.3=2.6.

I'm not sure how to explain it.. The sheet says weaponized math is based on the drop from gravity, and looks to me like this is also reflected in the JBM data, though through different math.
 
All ballistic solvers know about gravity. But ballistic solvers are just a model. Weaponized math is a model.

All Models are wrong. Some models are useful.

What Weaponized Math process gives you is data to true your model. Its real world DOPE. Now you can use that to get BETTER predictions from your JBM, Kestrel, Whatever.

Solvers use MV and BC as parameters to give you a prediction. Weaponized math gives you data (Most people ignore the "Actual" column, but that's the whole damn point is to get that column). You take that data to your solver and make the predictions line up with your real data. Thus you get a prediction in line with YOUR data. Not what the solver thinks it should be. You can tweak your SOLVER MV and BC so that it gives you what you actually shot. Then you get much better predictions rather than the random "All rifles will shoot the same"

Whats my MV on Hornady ELD-M Match? Dunno Never Measured it. My Kestrel says 2730. Where did that number come from? I made the "actual" numbers from WM line up with my kestrel range card (100-800) by tweaking the Kestrel MV. If I need to adjust 800-1000, I use BC.

Solvers are a guess. Don't guess. Measure.

Then when you truly have to guess, you've got data to back that guess up.
 
Maybe I made a mistake and is 2.6 not 1.96 we don’t use 200 as the range in AK doesn’t have it and mostly I just do groups at 200 not much else

We normally just X2 but maybe it was 2.6 and I screwed up and thought 1.96
 
I thought you were saying the 200 yd 'try dope' was 2 MOA (1.96).. I'm saying 2.6 is the try dope 'factor' to get from200 yd dope to 300yd. So if 2 MOA was your 200yd dope, then 2*2.6=5.2 would be your 300yd try dope.
 
I'm far from an expert but I've been in two Frank/Marc clinics where we used the weaponized math.

Its outstanding for getting a darn close try dope figure and then have them marching down the line giving corrections until on the water line and then capturing actual. I don't know how else you could effectively take 12-14 people down the range collecting good dope to be used the rest of the clinic.

Last year, at 800 yards I was a bit high with 4 DOF dope, Frank suggested taking 35 mph off of my MV, and damn if I wasn't on and able to use that calc to make a first round, pretty much dead center, hit on a 12" x 12" plate at 1040 yds (highlight of my short rifle career haha).

I think its a very helpful tool for quickly getting pretty good try dope to validate with actual results on the target.
 
I'm looking forward to getting a chance to use it. Been very windy here lately and that's putting a damper on my load development. I'm hoping to 'film' the process when it happens. May be a while though..
 
  • Like
Reactions: Baron23
The weaponized math thing is a very slick way to start from nothing on a range that has 100 yard intervals and is relatively flat

But if you have the technology and let's say your "range" is a bit less than square and flat.... then let's say you end up with a only a few scattered reference points the ballistics calculators do seem to work pretty well

When you have a good zero and then hit a couple random ranges like 364 and 538 it is more than feasible to be on a decent sized plate just from having done the testing and work at 100 yards earlier.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WIVigilance
THE UPDATED WORKSHEET that we use to get hundreds of students per year on target with first round hits.

It views near-to-far, just like the range you are looking at.
USE IT. Start from lower left and move to the right. Take that Actual number up and left, do the math and repeat.

You're welcome, shooting world!

---Taylor
 

Attachments

  • *WEAPONIZED MATH WORKSHEET .pdf
    83.4 KB · Views: 140