clarification !!!!!

E

eddieo

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 8, 2005
458
0
The Old Sod
#1
It has been brought to my attention that some little weasel keyboard commando has alleged to the Mods that my comments yesterday concerning the raid on the Aid ships was in some was anti semetic, hence alleging myself an anti semite....

I am on record as stating very clearly I never had any problem with IDF shooting gunmen... I am also on record as stating very clearly that I have a major problem with IDF and their policy of shooting civilians... This is in my opinion murder and the person committing such an act is not entitled to wear the uniform of any country, whether they be IDF or not.... I have personally witnessed IDF targetting of civilians resulting in quite a few deaths of innocent people.... This I have a problem with,,, a fucking big problem.... They may have as well be wearing SS uniforms....

Lets have a straw poll of the following;

1) Who has sevred in the Middle east ?
2) Who has actually put a live round into somebody,, and im not talking playstation here ?

3) Who believes the attack on the USS Liberty was murder by IDF of US Sailors and other personnell ?

I bet the answers to the first 2 are about 5-10%... They remainder simply believe the fucking bullshit rhetoric that comes from the IDF to justify the murder of civilians. The difference between some of us is that I actually respect the right of any person to hold an opinion that differs from mine. Not one of you has been able to provide me the names of any of these so called " 50 Known terrorists" that were on the boat that was attacked, proving yet again you wouldnt know what a point of view or the truth was if it crashed into your car...

To the idiot that implied I should be on a watch list : Get off your playstation, get some fresh air and start taking your meds again because you give imbeciles a bad name with such crap..

I fired my weapon 7 times in 16 years.. All times I was justified. All times I was completly 100% cleared by military police. I never shot any unarmed civilian. I will go to my maker with a clear consceince, the same unfortunately cannot be said for some of the scum, and yes I say SCUM IDF personnel I have come across..... And for the record I just got my gear ready to go shooting with a good buddy of mine that happens to be a former member of the Dovedovan !....

Anybody that takes exception to my commenst have the balls to contact me directly and stop going to the MODS like the pussy you are !...
 
#4
Re: clarification !!!!!

eddie, it's just some pussy...

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#7
Re: clarification !!!!!

I was just wondering... I know how they get around here.

I just saw the news crap about that and eh I won't bother to make an opinion because I wasn't there. I dont have the intel that anyone else had.

Good day.
 
#8
Re: clarification !!!!!

I do ! According to a brief I seen last night from the irish Consul in Israel and submitted to the irish army, 20+ of the survivors of the raid were shot in the back.... Oh sorry in case I offend the sensitive people here " Sustained multiple gun shot wounds to the lower back areas"... is that more PC

I see nobody has answered my 3 questions ! Surprising innit ?
 
#9
Re: clarification !!!!!

Nope not me, I think healthy debate is healthy.
I partially disagree with you but you do make some good points as well, and not just in that IDF post.

FYI the attack on the Liberty - remember the USS Pueblo? - well I saw that John Walker gave up the op codes but the Soviets did not have the hardware to use those codes with - so that's why the Pueblo was taken by North Korea.

I'd guess similiar with Israel except they started a shooting war the next day so maybe it was to prevent anyone from finding out....
I believe they were honestly in error as THEY stated that they expected an iranian spy ship or whatnot - they were in a war...

The Liberty was NOT where it was supposed to be - they screwed up. Very well documented and declassified - saw that on History channel.

Think a few of us have softer opinions on certain things, there's nothing wrong with it.

I doubt anyone's opinion will change the course of history in the mid east - the current direction they are heading is flat out war, just a matter of time...
 
#10
Re: clarification !!!!!

Eddieo,

Those here who know you, respect you and have practically no issue with your opinion.

Now, those here who don't know you, well, they just don't matter, and the short bus will be arriving soon to pick them up. Don't let the insignificidiots hamper your day. They ain't paying your bills.

Sean
 
#11
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has been brought to my attention that some little weasel keyboard commando has alleged to the Mods that my comments yesterday concerning the raid on the Aid ships was in some was anti semetic, hence alleging myself an anti semite....

I am on record as stating very clearly I never had any problem with IDF shooting gunmen... I am also on record as stating very clearly that I have a major problem with IDF and their policy of shooting civilians... This is in my opinion murder and the person committing such an act is not entitled to wear the uniform of any country, whether they be IDF or not.... I have personally witnessed IDF targetting of civilians resulting in quite a few deaths of innocent people.... This I have a problem with,,, a fucking big problem.... They may have as well be wearing SS uniforms....

Lets have a straw poll of the following;

1) Who has sevred in the Middle east ?
2) Who has actually put a live round into somebody,, and im not talking playstation here ?

3) Who believes the attack on the USS Liberty was murder by IDF of US Sailors and other personnell ?

I bet the answers to the first 2 are about 5-10%... They remainder simply believe the fucking bullshit rhetoric that comes from the IDF to justify the murder of civilians. The difference between some of us is that I actually respect the right of any person to hold an opinion that differs from mine. Not one of you has been able to provide me the names of any of these so called " 50 Known terrorists" that were on the boat that was attacked, proving yet again you wouldnt know what a point of view or the truth was if it crashed into your car...

To the idiot that implied I should be on a watch list : Get off your playstation, get some fresh air and start taking your meds again because you give imbeciles a bad name with such crap..

I fired my weapon 7 times in 16 years.. All times I was justified. All times I was completly 100% cleared by military police. I never shot any unarmed civilian. I will go to my maker with a clear consceince, the same unfortunately cannot be said for some of the scum, and yes I say SCUM IDF personnel I have come across..... And for the record I just got my gear ready to go shooting with a good buddy of mine that happens to be a former member of the Dovedovan !....

Anybody that takes exception to my commenst have the balls to contact me directly and stop going to the MODS like the pussy you are !...

</div></div>

I can always tell when you are on another one of your French Wine benders.
 
#13
Re: clarification !!!!!

Sorry eddieo, but if there is a blockade in place, someone is trying to break through it, I am tasked to board the ship to inspect it, and someone beats me and my peers with bats or steel bars, I tend to justify the use of force.
We might not have the clear picture due to missing information, but it seems to me that they tried to do their job w/out resorting to shooting anyone.

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When you live in a place closely surrounded by people that wants to nuke you out of existence, you tend to be a little on edge, and weakness is not something Israel can afford, when dealing with a certain class of folks.
Yes, this was very likely a humanitarian ship, but they sure acted not like one, AFAICS.
No, I did not serve in the Middle East, and no, I never shot anybody, not even in the Play Station.
About the USS Liberty, that is IMO the fishiest issue I heard of, wearing or not the tinfoil hat.
Why would a country attack an <span style="text-decoration: underline">allied</span> ship intentionally, is beyond the reach of my understanding.

 
#15
Re: clarification !!!!!

eddio, In the past I have always sided somewhat with IDF. Based on the limited knowledge of real circumstances and the fact that Israel is surrounded by hostile num-nuts that want to wipe them off the face of the earth. I tended with the aforementioned "limited knowledge of the real facts" to side with their aggression.

As if we were faced with the same set of circumstances would we in fact make some of the same decisions? In your earlier posts I didn't have much positive to say of your opinion!

With your background and experience which I "Thank you for your service" greatly and am more open minded to hearing a witness bearing other side of the story!! And being enlightened to facts and opinion based on a background and experience that I do not have.

By the way I certainly wasn't the playstation whistle blower and the answer to all three of your questions for me is
1)No
2)very close numerous times but"No"
3)I did not want to believe it but "Yes"

Please carry on, I'd much rather base my opinions on witness bearing experience than what was available to me in the past!!
 
#16
Re: clarification !!!!!

eddieo, I have always had nothing but respect for you and your opinion. Even in cases such as this, when you are so obviously wrong.
smirk.gif
 
#17
Re: clarification !!!!!

Eddie,

You equated your uses of force as being cleared by the military police if I do not mistake your meaning.

I would assume then that as ALL the evidence of this raid becomes clear you will afford any IDF participants the same respect should the investigation clear their use of force...correct???

I can't refute what you may have experienced in the past, but I think you have seriously put the cart before the horse in this instance. Five of the six boats were boarded without incident prior to the incident on the video which to me speaks loudly that the IDF was not out to "murder" anyone. Keep in mind these "innocent" civilians on the sixth boat were offered passage through Egypt as long as the cargo could be inspected. They refused. That does not leave much room for negotiation.

Maybe it is time to consider several other factors in this incident rather than the emotional response that most seem to be putting forth.
 
#18
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Eddie,

You equated your uses of force as being cleared by the military police if I do not mistake your meaning.

I would assume then that as ALL the evidence of this raid becomes clear you will afford any IDF participants the same respect should the investigation clear their use of force...correct???

I can't refute what you may have experienced in the past, but I think you have seriously put the cart before the horse in this instance. Five of the six boats were boarded without incident prior to the incident on the video which to me speaks loudly that the IDF was not out to "murder" anyone. Keep in mind these "innocent" civilians on the sixth boat were offered passage through Egypt as long as the cargo could be inspected. They refused. That does not leave much room for negotiation.

Maybe it is time to consider several other factors in this incident rather than the emotional response that most seem to be putting forth. </div></div>

yes on the 7 instances when I was forced to discharge my weapon I was immediately RTB , stood down from active duty while military police investigated the incident. Witness statements of all parties including any third parties was taken along with that of my colleagues. In all cases I was 100% vindicated and it was ruled by MP's and JAG that I adhered to ROE.


Lets not forget that this ship was hijacked in International waters, yes HIJACKED.... The actions of the IDF were illegal.. SIMPLE AS THAT...

the evidence so far :

" 50 known terrorists on board the ship "

Not one verifiable name of any known player has been presented that would back up this theory and speculation. Until such time as it happens this statement is a crock of shit. Upon any name being put forward I swear that i will run naked through the main street of dublin and film it for verification.

20+ of the injured received GSW to the back, suggesting to me at least and anybody with a single brain cell that they had their backs turned when shot.

The funerals of 9 turks took place today that were killed. the 9 killed worked as electricians, teacher, baker, gardner, writer, general labourer etc... Not one of the 9 buried today had any known terror links.. 5 of the 9 according to another intel report i made it my business to get sight of today received GSW to the back of the head and back.. If I am proved wrong and any person killed had terror links i WILL be the first to put my hands up and say I was wrong


An investigation of an IDF soldier that shot a 8 year old boy some years ago cleared him of murder. The boy was playing football near an OP... he was playing with his 10 year old brother when murdered. I would have 0% confidence in the IDF to investigate themselves.

Reagrdless of whether the persons on the 6th boat refused passage to egypt or not. The baot was in international waters making the actions of the IDF an act or piracy and murder.

So far i believe 2 or 3 people have answered my questions. Where are the keyboard commandos now..

A further point of clarification. I didnt ask if the USS liberty was in the wrong area I asked if people thought the actions of the IDF were murder. One member here, IUD I believe had a cousin or another close relative on board when that attack happened. he had a thread ehere when he gave an account of some of what happened that the Liberty on several occasions gave frantic and frequent radio calls to the IDF planes that they were a US Navy ship.. The planes continued to attack. I could go on an relate my own experiences with the IDF but I want to go to bed and besides i dont want to offend some of the sensitive souls that think im an anti semite.

ed
 
#19
Re: clarification !!!!!

While I don't side with either side, if it were MY blockade, that boat would have been torpedoed and sunk and all survivors left to the sharks to teach them a lesson. When one is making such things as blockades and such, ruthlessness must be used to the 'nth' extreme or you are just one more pussy getting fucked by everyone who decides to run your little 'just doing it as a show of force' project.
I am not an anti semite, but I DO think the Isrealis have shown the aptitude to make for excellent Nazi's with their behavior toward Palastinians and other Arabic's, not that I see THAT as a problem either
 
#20
Re: clarification !!!!!

The USS Liberty was attacked by unmarked Israeli planes, according to many reports. The Israelis alledged that they were attacking and Egyptian ship, as an act of war. I criticize the Israelis for the attack, but am even more critical of the US Governement, lead by Johnson, who did not complete a thorough investigation.

Eddieo, I have only news reports that leave more questions than answers.
As for me, I was in Kuwait in 91 and several other AOs prior to that, dating back to 1970. I lost count of the number of times I have put a live round into somebody, over the 22 years.
I have many Israelis who are good friends and have been for a long time, several IFD.
I will hold my final decision on the engagement until more information is presented from both sides. As far as I am concerned, you cross my line or my wire and I will fire.
 
#21
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To the idiot that implied I should be on a watch list : Get off your playstation, get some fresh air and start taking your meds again because you give imbeciles a bad name with such crap..

</div></div>

While I didn't go to the mods, I was the one who posted that your statement about your having a friend on that ship and your anti-Israel stance in general was a little askew of the views many, if not most, on this board have. In-effect, you were picking a fight and I would bet that's why the mods may have deleted your thread. Those who saw it, saw your stance on the issue and no amount of justifying yourself via your "experiences" will back you out of the views you expressed.

Furthermore, you're being a lot more tactful than you were yesterday, I doubt the people agreeing with you today, would still do so, had they read what you wrote and the way you wrote it yesterday.
 
#22
Re: clarification !!!!!

Whether it was the SAS shooting kids in the back in N. Ire. or IDF shooting civilians, would you expect any less?

1. No, don't have any desire to see that part of the world.
2. No
3. Yes,

HotIce "Why would a country attack an allied ship intentionally, is beyond the reach of my understanding." It happens, Battle of Mers-el-Kébir.

We NEED cut the welfare given both Israel and Egypt, then spend it to protect our own US borders!
 
#23
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Polytrauma</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

We NEED cut the welfare given both Israel and Egypt, then spend it to protect our own US borders! </div></div>

So true!
 
#24
Re: clarification !!!!!

Eddie, what would be your link to "inside intel" ? You say you have friends on the inside.... what makes you think they are telling you the truth? Im sure they are given very strict instructions on what they can and cannot say. I would assume for fear of a "friend" running to a forum seen world wide and spouting off about what secret intel they know.

I would just let this one fade..... this is a touchy subject and could take a turn for the crapper real quick.
 
#26
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a touchy subject</div></div>

Always is when certain someones are the subject. Double standards all over the place...better stay quiet...or else...


Were one foot in a crapper and violently working towards putting another one in...
 
#27
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To the idiot that implied I should be on a watch list : Get off your playstation, get some fresh air and start taking your meds again because you give imbeciles a bad name with such crap..

</div></div>

While I didn't go to the mods, I was the one who posted that your statement about your having a friend on that ship and your anti-Israel stance in general was a little askew of the views many, if not most, on this board have. In-effect, you were picking a fight and I would bet that's why the mods may have deleted your thread. Those who saw it, saw your stance on the issue and no amount of justifying yourself via your "experiences" will back you out of the views you expressed.

Furthermore, you're being a lot more tactful than you were yesterday, I doubt the people agreeing with you today, would still do so, had they read what you wrote and the way you wrote it yesterday. </div></div>


Can you actually hear yourself and see what your writing. I have an opinion that differs from you and you think my stance is anti Israeli... It not you fool. I never said it was anti anti israeli...I never said I was anti israeli.... I got many friends who are jewish. One of them i went shooting with last night and talked shit about shit for 5 hours..

I WILL PUT THIS IN BIG LETTERS SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND

I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE IDF POLICY OF SHOOTING CIVILIANS IN THE BACK....

Didnt say I have a problem with Israel or jewish people... D-O Y-O-U U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-N-D- ?


I have no problem with people telling me they think im wrong... We agree to diasagree.... Thats what being an adult with an opinion is all about
 
#28
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I have no problem with people telling me they think im wrong... We agree to diasagree.... Thats what being an adult with an opinion is all about </div></div>

Like I said before:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Furthermore, you're being a lot more tactful than you were yesterday, I doubt the people agreeing with you today, would still do so, had they read what you wrote and the way you wrote it yesterday. </div></div>


You're not making your case very strong, you're flipping out and calling names which is what the desperate resort to.
 
#29
Re: clarification !!!!!

Doesn't that define 'ruthlessness' eddie? Did not the Regiment and other Brit's effect a most ruthless war upon the elements of the Provo's? Now I have never been to Mogadishu but If I had been I think many a skinny would have been shot in the back during 'fire and maneuver'.
As formerly stated, I do not condone shooting civilians or non combatants in the back, but I do condone ruthlessness in enforcing a blocade. It seems a slight contradiction; however all participants in trying to cross the blocade become combatants by being there and supporting that particular endeavor. Only ruthless acts can enforce this blocade.
Bottom line, it is what it is. Would stopping any and all support to teh arabic and isreali nations be a good policy, who knows, but that would give a slight advantage to the oil producers and their wealth compared to the isrealis. Maybe it would be reason for them to just go wholesale slaughter on the arabs in a fit of self protectionist policy
 
#30
Re: clarification !!!!!

"Shot in the back" does not indicate a single thing.

Not only has it been shown time and again that when in a shootout there is plenty of time for an assailant to turn and get hit on the dorsal surface, but it would be exceedingly obvious that if I am shooting to stop an assailant from attacking another individual that the actual entry of the bullets leaves little indication as to why they were engaged.

Way to many variables are in play here to simply state that an entry wound is indicative of "fair play" or not.
 
#31
Re: clarification !!!!!

here is a question ?

Has anybody seen any news report showing any of the so called firearms that were allegedly found on the ship ?

Has anyone provided the names of any of these so called 50 Known terrorists that were on the ship ?

Can anyone answer this to me....This apparently appears to be the major argument the IDF are putting forward...

Someone show me a link anywhere that these 50 known terrorists are identified or even 1 known terrorist is identified...

Also there is a vast world of difference in shooting a player that has taken a shot at you and hitting them in the back... This is in my opinion 100% justified. Shooting a non unarmed fleeing combatant is murder....

So can anyone provide me these details please.
 
#32
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Shot in the back" does not indicate a single thing.

Not only has it been shown time and again that when in a shootout there is plenty of time for an assailant to turn and get hit on the dorsal surface, but it would be exceedingly obvious that if I am shooting to stop an assailant from attacking another individual that the actual entry of the bullets leaves little indication as to why they were engaged.

Way to many variables are in play here to simply state that an entry wound is indicative of "fair play" or not. </div></div>

I'd go a lot further than that.

If you're a bad-guy on one of those boats, whipping out a bunch of small arms before being boarded predetermines the outcome. You better keep them out of sight.

If you are @ someone else's house and they run to another part of the house during a fight, you would be well-served to assume they are running to get more effective fightin' tools... and it might not be good for you if they reach their destination.

I wouldn't call these shooting indiscriminate. Perhaps a few, maybe even all those shot in the back posed no threat. Me, if it was above board and not cowering in submission, I would have pulled the trigger. Always better to be jailed than killed, when you are in a position where your safety is being threatened. Their safety was obviously threatened, and documented.

I'm not talking about boarding the boat and international waters, and Gaza vs Israel, just civilians getting shot in the back on a boat in the middle of an attack caused by stupidity. Refusing to go along was not the smart choice if getting the aid there and preserving your safety were the priorities. No matter how you slice it, the aid boat's crew made a stand.
 
#33
Re: clarification !!!!!

And because they made a stand it means that they somehow deserved to be shot...in International Waters ! I dont accept that argument for a second...

Look,,, I believe I am correct in my assertions based upon what I have seen personally and read in the last few days.

Not one person has been able to provide me a name of a verifiable player that was on the boats which has formed the majority of the IDF argument as to why the boats were attacked in the first place. .. This is called proof beyone reasonable doubt in a court of law...

Im not falling out with anyone here but obviously some people think its acceptable to shoot in very dubious circumstances at unarmed civilians . Im not one of them...There is an irish ship near to gaza now at the moment... so we wait and see if they are attacked as well. I would like to be remembered as a former professional soldier that did a lot of good when in and not someone that,, well lets say let down the honor that goes with wearing a uniform...

FYI one of the passengers on that ship the MV Rachel Corre is a former Army officer whom I served with invited as an observer... lets wait and see what happens.

MODS,, In the meantime please delete this threat...
 
#35
Re: clarification !!!!!

Are you getting your classified intel from your shooting buddy? You know..... the guy that walks around the range with TOP SECRET stamped all over his manilla envelopes?!

Give me a break!
 
#36
Re: clarification !!!!!

Don't know what happened.
I do know that if you are engaged, being murdered and getting the crap beat out of you, and can't shoot, and your partner is ten feet away and can shoot, he better shoot them in the back.
A blockade is legal and if declared an attempt to get through can be stopped. The news keeps saying the Isreali's were beat with "sticks". There were no sticks on board, the sticks were iron bars. Isreali suicide bombers, and child asassins have killed thousands of innocents.
Does anyone here doubt that Muslims killed a lot of Americans since 1983? If Isreal is defeated it will be a massacre. If the muslims are defeated they will just start in again.
I would rather have Isreal as an allie then a bunch of perverted muslims.
 
#37
Re: clarification !!!!!

Eddie, I for one am not questioning your service or your character, simply your interpretation of this incident.

"Dubious Circumstances" fortunately work both ways. If you truly are an "aid flotilla" then there should be no harm at all coming to a port and allowing an inspection of the aid items rather than trying to run a blockade.

Also no one was shot because they were simply part of the flotilla, five boats had already been boarded without incident. The shooting did not start until deadly force (iron bars etc.) were used by the "aid givers".
 
#38
Re: clarification !!!!!

eddie, take a pull of the ol Paddy's. Look back in history at how the blocade of Ireland was effected by Britian when the Provo was receiving guns, ammo, and aid from the Finian's in the Colonies. The ruthlessness was never questioned outside of the AO. If a blocade is run, ruthlessness is indicated to stop said running of blocade.
As formerly stated, the Isrealis learned very well from the lesson put upon them in the 30's
 
#39
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">eddie, take a pull of the ol Paddy's. Look back in history at how the blocade of Ireland was effected by Britian when the Provo was receiving guns, ammo, and aid from the Finian's in the Colonies. The ruthlessness was never questioned outside of the AO. If a blocade is run, ruthlessness is indicated to stop said running of blocade.
As formerly stated, the Isrealis learned very well from the lesson put upon them in the 30's </div></div>

To quote Freud !

Its a classic case of the abused becomming the abuser...

Still doesnt make it right
 
#40
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im not falling out with anyone here but obviously some people think its acceptable to shoot in very dubious circumstances at unarmed civilians .</div></div>

I think the crux of your objection is the word civilian. I think calling anyone on that ship a civilian is stretching a bit. I think that excluding so called observers, the spectrum is political activist in enemy territory -> terrorist. If a Russian comes to the US on a boat deliverying supplies to the local socialist party during a time of war, I can't say I'd call them a civilian. I would hope as an American they would be classified as a threat, treated with suspicion, and destroyed upon validating themselves as a threat.

Now, if that same Russian had come here to speak @ a collegiate debate, I'd consider him a civilian. If someone asked to see his passport at the airport and he started dumping LEO over the balcony, I don't care what he is here for. He is disruptive, a threat to those around him, and his getting shot would not be an outrage to me. I expect LEO to not just pour lead into every civilian stepping off a plane. I don't expect perfection when someone starts a fight and tosses his buddies over the rail.

I also noticed you keep referring to IDF tactics. I don't see the incidental shooting of civilians to be a tactic. I see intimidating potential threats, and doing it outside their waters to show willingness to bend the rules. I think the tactic was intimidation by baording, and delay via rerouting. If you actually know that someone said "Hey, board that ship and shoot some civilians, and do it before they enter our waters where it would be a defensive action." I'd love to see it proven because that is a douchebag move. I can appreciate intimidation to dissuade a larger conflict later on.

Not simply civilians going to the grocery in the evening, I would imagine most the folks that get involved in things like sending aid to Gaza on boats are of the same recipe that joins up for Greenpeace or Whale Wars. They need to be given a clue before they will go home on their own to relish their cozy life, and being boarded by a bunch of IDF and guided home via the long way, and having a good talking to was meant to be the clue. I don't think shooting is subtle enough to have been meant for this.
 
#41
Re: clarification !!!!!

They aren't going to yield on this one Eddie. They boarded the latest ship early today, without any violence apparently, and are bringing the ship into port in Ashdod.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37504817/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

In answer to your questions,
1) Not me.
2) Not me.
3) I don't know. A lot of the Isreali's, especially back in the 1960's, were American ex patriots and I don't want to believe they would murder American sailors. Orders are orders though, and I don't know for sure.

We'll see on the names of the 50 "known" terrorists. It's early yet and there may be good reasons yet for not releasing their names. And it could be bullshit. It's early yet.

While I have no doubt your first hand experience in the area informs you of unassailable facts, there are other facts willfully ignored by these flotilla "Activists".

Dinosaur-communist-whitehouse-reporter Helen Thomas (no insult to dinosaurs) intemperately spilled the beans yesterday when she said,

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RQcQdWBqt14"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RQcQdWBqt14" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

This opinion is shared by many leftwing, and typically gutless, people who feel they live far enough away from "grittiness" that they always view every problem from the "flight" perspective, rather than "fight".

Crime in the city? Move away to the suburbs. Coddled urban children still can't read and write? Make the classes easier. Deadbeats can't get a loan to buy a house? Force lenders to make loans to them. Never a principled stand taken, always the easy, PC, tasteful, bromide, remedy instead.

Bolshevik agitators, given that their only tool is a hammer, viewing every problem as a nail, decide that the only solution to the Isreali-Palestinian deadlock is to aid the Palestinians, in a manner that publicly humiliates the Isrealis by mocking their blockade, have only themselves to blame for the escalation of force. Frankly the Abba Eban quote that, "The Palestinian's never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" is undeniably true and not aided by dumbass meddlers trying to speed up the process.

As a person who's DNA comes dierctly from the Levant, only two or three generations removed depending on which side of my family, I am interested in a long term deal that will be honored. It isn't any easier watching sobbing Palestinian children than it is Bosnian, Irish or Somalian: the former tend to look very much like my own however. I want peace, prosperity and forgiveness to be re-born there. It won't happn by placating Abbas, Hamas, Hezbollah, Assad and Ahmadinijad. And no amount of delusional, jihadist or left wing agitating will solve the deadlock either.

Every previous land for peace deal has been breached by the Arabs. Treachery has been the defining characteristic of the Arab offerings to Isreal, fully intendeing to buy time until the illusive, chimera of the final annihilation of the Jewish state can be effected.

The day Isreal is annihilated, all Arabs die as well. Hence a deal is the only real option. Yet legions of suppressed Arabs are manipulated by vicious dictators, sheiks, Imams, Mullahs, etc., to hate, kill and foment more of the same, while their wealth and power is maintained and enhanced.

The Isreali's can be faulted for screw ups, excessive force and manipulation but none of it is born of the delusion that they are dealing with honest people. Or that they have many friends.

Sorry about your friends and colleagues but allowing the Isreali's to board the vessel, unequivocally and undeniably destined to breach the Isreali blockade, would have very likely prevented anyone from being harmed.

On a final note, regarding Helen Thomas. As a fellow Lebanese Christian, it may be telling that I loathe that bitch and long for her exit from the vertical plane. I don't believe we share a single common belief and would not be surprised to find she couldn't roll a stuffed grape leaf to save her life.
 
#42
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They may have as well be wearing SS uniforms....
</div></div>

I always get such a kick out of people comparing the Jews to the SS.... Irony at it's finest... LOL
 
#43
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They may have as well be wearing SS uniforms....
</div></div>

I always get such a kick out of people comparing the Jews to the SS.... Irony at it's finest... LOL </div></div>

Unfortunately not too far from the truth in this instance !
 
#44
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Orders are orders though, and I don't know for sure.


</div></div>


The SS and other Nazi's that were hanged at Nuremberg used the defense;

" We were only following orders "..

An old Sgt of mine that passed away 2 weeks once told me that the trick to being a good soldier is not the ability to blindly follow orders but the ability to recognise the consequnce of blindly following those orders.

You cant reply on that as a defense if you shoot unarmed combatants to say " But i was only following orders"... You own conscience if you have one should tell you loud and clear that shooting someone fleeing from you in the back of the head is morally and legally wrong... But sure " I was only following orders"...

I would have no problem standing by anyone of whatever uniform that followed their conscience and thought about the consequnces before they fired.

The keyboard commando's here it is blindingly obvious have no ability to recognise that sickening feeling you get in the pit of your stomach once you realise that you have taken a human life.... Even if you are in the right and followed the ROE its bad enough.. I came acroos too many people who had a taste for shooting first... They are not nice people to be around. I wouldnt even like to be party to what their dreams are like... No wonder many of them end up eating a bullet. if you ask me thats the easy way out... Defending the indefensible is as bad or even worse IMHO to actually carrying out the deed itself.

As I already said I believe 100% that when I go to meet my maker im going with a clean conscience. I am acutely aware that the majority of the keyboard commando's choose to ignore me on my 3 questions. I wonder why ? I was correct, 5-10% of people actually had the courage to answer me honestly.. To those I say I admire you and respect you for your honesty. I would be proud to stand with you anytime of the day or night. You guys are the reason why I stay around here ! You guys are the true warriors in my book.
 
#45
Re: clarification !!!!!

Yes
Yes
Don't know enough about the situation to give an opinion.

I do know that none of use were there, and passing judgement on the decisions that soldiers make in life or death situations is dumb.

Also, just because someone is shot in the back, it does not mean they were fleeing.

Were the actions of the IDF wrong? Maybe... maybe not. I know that I'm not going to crucify the actions of other soldiers who were on the ground making split second decisions that would affect whether they got to go home and see their children and wives.

Just watching the video of them being beaten with metal pipes is enough to show me that they were in danger and the use of deadly force would have been a viable option to survive.

Eddie, I have always respected your opinion on here and know you are one heck of a stand up guy.

Cheers brother.
 
#46
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Orders are orders though, and I don't know for sure.


</div></div>


The SS and other Nazi's that were hanged at Nuremberg used the defense;

" We were only following orders "..

An old Sgt of mine that passed away 2 weeks once told me that the trick to being a good soldier is not the ability to blindly follow orders but the ability to recognise the consequnce of blindly following those orders.

You cant reply on that as a defense if you shoot unarmed combatants to say " But i was only following orders"... You own conscience if you have one should tell you loud and clear that shooting someone fleeing from you in the back of the head is morally and legally wrong... But sure " I was only following orders"...

I would have no problem standing by anyone of whatever uniform that followed their conscience and thought about the consequnces before they fired.

The keyboard commando's here it is blindingly obvious have no ability to recognise that sickening feeling you get in the pit of your stomach once you realise that you have taken a human life.... Even if you are in the right and followed the ROE its bad enough.. I came acroos too many people who had a taste for shooting first... They are not nice people to be around. I wouldnt even like to be party to what their dreams are like... No wonder many of them end up eating a bullet. if you ask me thats the easy way out... Defending the indefensible is as bad or even worse IMHO to actually carrying out the deed itself.

As I already said I believe 100% that when I go to meet my maker im going with a clean conscience. I am acutely aware that the majority of the keyboard commando's choose to ignore me on my 3 questions. I wonder why ? I was correct, 5-10% of people actually had the courage to answer me honestly.. To those I say I admire you and respect you for your honesty. I would be proud to stand with you anytime of the day or night. You guys are the reason why I stay around here ! You guys are the true warriors in my book. </div></div>

The whole quote, in context was,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3) I don't know. A lot of the Isreali's, especially back in the 1960's, were American ex patriots and I don't want to believe they would murder American sailors. Orders are orders though, and I don't know for sure. </div></div>

Referring to the pilots who attacked the USS Liberty. I referred to the uncertainty I have regarding whether the pilots fired in the mistaken belief that the ship wasn't a U.S. naval vessel or whether they had orders to fire on it regardless. I assume the pilots were ordered to fire and had no reason to refuse their orders as being illegal. It was 43 years ago and I haven't researched it. My feeling is that it is not germaine to this particular topic and wasn't really the emphasis of my post, or yours.

I did try to answer your question and am certainly not trying to mitigate in favor of anyone who willfully fired on Americans, innocents, peaceful protestors, children, prisoners or any other non-combatants believing his orders would cover an obvious or likely, illegal act. I in no way meant to endorse "Orders are Orders" as a justification, however that may have been part of the pressure the pilots were under way back on that day in '67'.

The main point I hope was made was that regardless of the international waters argument, the ships were unmistakably going to gaza and the acquiesance to Isreal's search, rather than the blatant attacks on those Isreali's boarding the ship, would have likely prevented any violence.

The actions of "the activists" on the 6th vessel escalated the situation and I saw nothing remotely resembling the peaceful, non-violent resistance of Ghandi or King on the part of the mob that attacked the boarding party.

Also the S.S. analogy is waaaay over worked.

No disrespect intended. I'm not a warrior, just a large carpenter! The only time I've ever been been shot at was interrupting a burglary in progress and while trespassing as a kid. Both times I ran to cover as I was unarmed and scared just short of pissless! 4 rounds total, all misses, and I don't consider them resume enhancers.

The couple instances when I have drawn on people or held them a gunpoint, I thankfully did not have to shoot as the situations de-escalated once I had the drop on them. Police were called and I was in no trouble.

I have no right to insinuate myself into even a scintilla of your experiences and hope I have not appeared to. On this subject matter though I am hardly disinterested.

On a lighter note, it's Saturday night and I hope it is pleasant for you and your family.

 
#47
Re: clarification !!!!!

Anyone serving in the military knows one thing about orders. You will follow them, THEN complain to IG etc if they were illegal. It is not YOUR place as a Soldier(etc) to question your leadership, but as your oathe says, follow their orders.
Way I see this latest episode in the waters around ISreal, someone will be answering questions at the top...IF they are asked. My guess is there will be no questions within Isreali borders, but a few from the International Hand Wringers and the ones with twisted, bunched up panties.
I am sure if it had been someone else's blocade nothing would have been mentioned.
As for me, I have my own opinions, and respect those of eddie since he has been there and done it for some time and retired from it so his opinions do have a certain amount of merit
 
#48
Re: clarification !!!!!

Firstly, I am not going to make a comment about the IDF raid. However, it does seem like many don't understand what is LEGAL and ILLEGAL on the high seas.

You CAN board a ship in international waters. The U.S. Navy does it all the time. Being a squid myself, I have personally seen it done in the Med, off the coast of Africa, and in between Colombia and El Salvador. We have teams called Visit, Board, Search , and Seizure (VBSS). We CAN and DO pull alongside a ship, TELL them we are coming aboard and to muster their personnel topside, search the ship, seize any illegal articles, and even seize the ship if necessary. If you seize the ship, you keep all the personnel onboard restrained and under watch and place a "Prize Crew" to shepherd the ship to the desired destination.

If you think for one second that they violated any laws by conducting a boarding, you are dead wrong. So, that is probably not the thing on which to base a rant/argument. No flaming...just telling you about what I know.

Josh
 
#49
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

1) Who has sevred in the Middle east ?
2) Who has actually put a live round into somebody,, and im not talking playstation here ?
3) Who believes the attack on the USS Liberty was murder by IDF of US Sailors and other personnell ?

I bet the answers to the first 2 are about 5-10%... They remainder simply believe the fucking bullshit rhetoric that comes from the IDF to justify the murder of civilians. The difference between some of us is that I actually respect the right of any person to hold an opinion that differs from mine. Not one of you has been able to provide me the names of any of these so called " 50 Known terrorists" that were on the boat that was attacked, proving yet again you wouldnt know what a point of view or the truth was if it crashed into your car...
</div></div>


1) No
2) Yes
3) Undecided

Watching the video footage and hearing/reading what I have about the recent board and search, I think I would have pulled the trigger, too, while trying as far as is possible in that difficult situation to ensure each pull was legit. Ie. if a guy who was hitting me with a bat two minutes ago has now turned and is running, I hope that I'll think fast enough to hold. But I wasn't there. We all know that in a real fight, whether it's fists, bats, knives, or service rifles, things move fast and shit definitely be happen'n, yo.

So while I will disagree with you on this one, I respect your (quite knowledgeable) opinion and I thank you for your service.

Those Jews are some tough mofos and they don't take much Shiite.
laugh.gif
 
#50
Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone serving in the military knows one thing about orders. You will follow them, THEN complain to IG etc if they were illegal.</div></div>

Actually, that's incorrect for soldiers, at least. Every US Army soldier gets a class in Basic/OSUT that clarifies one's responsibilities in these situations. The "I was just following orders" defense has not held since 1945.
 
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