clarification !!!!!

[kmhamlin]

Re: clarification !!!!!

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. The IHH, an organization with very well known ties to terrorism (not necessarily PLO or Hamas) was responsible for the ship in question. If they were peace brokers, why did they make martyrdom videos and have weapons...although crude, they were still weapons. They were offered the opportunity to pull into Egypt (a fellow Muslim country) to offload and Egypt would get the supplies to Gaza. They refused and attempted to run a blockade after multiple attempts to get them to stop. We would have and have done the same thing. We board vessels all the time who are in violation of blockades. We use real bullets. The Israelis had paint ball rounds. I personally would have used live rounds and if anyone with pipes tried to assault me I would have used proper escalation of force to deal with them. If they grabbed the fast rope to cause any of my men to fall off and potentially kill them, they would have been killed. The IHH set this up from the start and in this case, Israel was justified with the boarding in my opinion.

 

[eddieo]

Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Firstly, I am not going to make a comment about the IDF raid. However, it does seem like many don't understand what is LEGAL and ILLEGAL on the high seas.

You CAN board a ship in international waters. The U.S. Navy does it all the time. Being a squid myself, I have personally seen it done in the Med, off the coast of Africa, and in between Colombia and El Salvador. We have teams called Visit, Board, Search , and Seizure (VBSS). We CAN and DO pull alongside a ship, TELL them we are coming aboard and to muster their personnel topside, search the ship, seize any illegal articles, and even seize the ship if necessary. If you seize the ship, you keep all the personnel onboard restrained and under watch and place a "Prize Crew" to shepherd the ship to the desired destination.

If you think for one second that they violated any laws by conducting a boarding, you are dead wrong. So, that is probably not the thing on which to base a rant/argument. No flaming...just telling you about what I know.

Josh </div></div>

I wouldnt claim to be an expert in International Maritime Law so Im open to correction on this.

My understanding of this is that such a boarding may only take place if at the behest and request of a foreign jurisdiction making a complaint through a government/ law enforcement channel that the vessel is in the process of committing an indictable offense or is suspected of engaging in offenses that may contravene maratime law...

If such a situation were the case then you could have vessels from say Brazil coming into waters off ireland and conducting searches of all vessels without reason... Josh... think your incorrect on that one..

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My understanding of this is that such a boarding may only take place if at the behest and request of a foreign jurisdiction making a complaint through a government/ law enforcement channel that the vessel is in the process of committing an indictable offense or is suspected of engaging in offenses that may contravene maratime law...

If such a situation were the case then you could have vessels from say Brazil coming into waters off ireland and conducting searches of all vessels without reason... Josh... think your incorrect on that one..
</div></div>

I have been to school for VBSS. You are correct in the assumption that a boarding may take place if you have suspicion of illegal activity. When we went to war in the Persian Gulf almost all vessels transiting in and out of port in Iraq were boarded and inspected. The IDF did the same thing to ensure no illegal material was being smuggled into Gaza. If we didn't find anything of interest onboard we would thank the master, drop off some supplies and get them on there way. It is impossible to inspect everything, so we do the best to get at the one that intelligence tells us are the most probable for smuggling.

There are actually designated holding areas for VBSS and Maritime Interdiction Operations (MIO) in the Persian Gulf. However, we inspect suspicious Dhows off the Horn of Africa to ensure they are not involved in Piracy. We also inspect ships off of South America to make sure they are not smuggling drugs. The boardings can take from 30 minutes to a couple days depending on the ship size.

As a last tidbit...no ships are really immune aside from registered warships. Even Cruise ships can be boarded if someone or something is believed onboard. However, most of those cases are taken care of by the Coast Guard once the ship enters port.

I realize that many people believe that this practice is illegal. Most ship's masters don't like to stop because we infringe upon their schedule. However, I could truly care less if that stops illicit goods from reaching terrorists. That last sentence refers to MY dealings with VBSS and MIO and not the IDF. I am staying out of that fight. I am just attempting to educate others on how it really works out there.

This stuff is going on in the U.S. Navy right now around the world. Thing is, you never hear of it until it goes wrong.

Josh

Here is a video in which you can hear the boarding officer clearly talking of how we conduct security sweeps of ships if deemed necessary. Again, just trying to educate...

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[Rnd1]

Re: clarification !!!!!

It’s a classic case of the abused becoming the abuser...

Still doesn’t make it right
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I had this same thought as I was reading down through the thread.

Israel has been dealing with terrorists for so long they are at risk of becoming what they hate most.

I do believe that when the clubs came out some sort of protective action needed to be taken, but from where I'm sitting it was way out of line. At one time I thought that the Israelis had to answer all threats with overwhelming force/violence just to stay alive. Now days it seems that they are enjoying their reputation a little too much.

Eddie, I too have a lot of respect for you and feel that you have a more informed opinion than most on this topic. Don’t let anyone, least of all internet commandos, get to you. You always seem to have an open mind while discussing things here on the hide but as you can see some stuff just has to circle once or twice before disappearing down the internet drain.

History will write it down the way it wants, not necessarily how it was.

 

[eddieo]

Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rnd1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It’s a classic case of the abused becoming the abuser...

Still doesn’t make it right
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I had this same thought as I was reading down through the thread.

Israel has been dealing with terrorists for so long they are at risk of becoming what they hate most.

I do believe that when the clubs came out some sort of protective action needed to be taken, but from where I'm sitting it was way out of line. At one time I thought that the Israelis had to answer all threats with overwhelming force/violence just to stay alive. Now days it seems that they are enjoying their reputation a little too much.

Eddie, I too have a lot of respect for you and feel that you have a more informed opinion than most on this topic. Don’t let anyone, least of all internet commandos, get to you. You always seem to have an open mind while discussing things here on the hide but as you can see some stuff just has to circle once or twice before disappearing down the internet drain.

History will write it down the way it wants, not necessarily how it was.
</div></div>


When I asked the internet commando's some simple questions, they disappeared like water down a bathtub... Says a lot aobut them. They rather call me an anti semite than have the balls to act like a man and contact me directly... No my friend they will never get to me... Not that I have to prove myself to anybody but it says a lot about a person that condones acts of brutality against civilians.. Thankfully I am still proud of my service in lebanon and Kosovo. I believe i personally and the men and women I served with made a great deal of difference to a lot of people in those regions... I wear my scars with pride... These fools on the other hand are happy to go along with the bullshit rhetoric that is spouted by the IDF in their PR battle.

I have a lot of sympathy with the IDF and what the Jews have had to put up with. But by their present course towards the civilian populations is morally and ethically wrong and illegal to boot.. They got their asses handed to them by Hezbollah and Hamas and rather than face them on the battlefield again they take it out on women and children and old folks.... How brave of them !

 

[High Binder]

Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

When I asked the internet commando's some simple questions, they disappeared like water down a bathtub... Says a lot aobut them. </div></div>

Keep telling yourself that. Like I had said before; You're being a lot more tactful in this thread than your last thread, while still relegating yourself to name calling. You can pat yourself on the back all you want but it doesn't change the fact that all the people you have swayed in this thread would never have supported your statements in the last thread. As to your "internet commando" comment, nobody disappeared, we simply wrote you off and moved on.

If you still have the need to continue your martyrdom: send it in a PM.

 

[eddieo]

Re: clarification !!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

When I asked the internet commando's some simple questions, they disappeared like water down a bathtub... Says a lot aobut them. </div></div>

Keep telling yourself that. Like I had said before; You're being a lot more tactful in this thread than your last thread, while still relegating yourself to name calling. You can pat yourself on the back all you want but it doesn't change the fact that all the people you have swayed in this thread would never have supported your statements in the last thread. As to your "internet commando" comment, nobody disappeared, we simply wrote you off and moved on.

If you still have the need to continue your martyrdom: send it in a PM. </div></div>

Funnily enough, I believe I made my point !....

As for tactful... no im not ..... Swaying people... You know one thing.. I always had the personal belief that I never really gave a shit what people thought of me.. They like me for me or they dont. I dont have the desire to go with the flow and agree with all the bullshit... Thats whats called being an adult and having an OPINION IS ALL ABOUT...

You should try it... Its very refreshing....

 

[USAFDoug]

Re: clarification !!!!!

I believe the attack on the Liberty was a mistake. The ship was unidentified and the US did not give any info to the IDF where they were operating it because it was a surv ship wasn't it? I think it got in the mix and... well bad shit happens.