Cold Bore

[eleaf]

Let's say that I were interested in going to the range and doing nothing but cold bore exercises for the day. Firing the rifle with a cold bore and recording the results.

How long should I be waiting in between shots in order for every shot be considered a true cold bore shot? Certainly outside factors will come in to play, such as temperature, etc, but I'm looking for a ball park. Are we talking 10 minutes in between shots? 20? An hour? This exercise is impossible because it takes hours?

Thanks

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: Cold Bore

The first two shots are generally considered cold bore. If you clean your rifles and put them away then your going to probably want to let your rifle cool down all the way and follow your cleaning regiment in between shots. I leave my barrels fowled. I feel that that gives me a more consistent cold bore poi.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Cold Bore

A cold bore isn't what you think it is...

 

[jps2]

Re: Cold Bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A cold bore isn't what you think it is... </div></div>
Cold bore, cold mind.

Like first hour of skiing, body/nervous system have to remember the feeling.

 

[Swan]

Re: Cold Bore

Shot a 400 meter cold bore shot in a match last weekend... it hit exactly where I was aiming.

I did dry fire three times before that though. Not convinced of this whole "cold bore" mumbo jumbo voodoo

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Cold Bore

cold bore shot is in your mind, cold clean bore is a different story. Its all about getting the shooter "seasoned" if that makes sense. cold dirty bore not being POA/POI is in the shooters mind and body, takes a shot or two for the shooter to get in the groove

 

[garandman]

Re: Cold Bore

As has been said, it may well be largely psychological. My 1884 Trapdoor Springfield (with its mild steel barrell) tends to swell, and takes about 3 shots before the bullets will fly true and not tumble.

Todays barrels are tempered and I wonder if the cold bore thing is a reality anymore.

I do think a fouled bore is better to shoot on than a clean bore.



But that might all be psychological too....

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Cold Bore

no a cold clean bore will take a couple rounds to get the fouling back in it there for shooting POA/POI but a cold fouled bore throwing a shot is the shooter not the barrel

 

[Lindy]

Re: Cold Bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...but a cold fouled bore throwing a shot is the shooter not the barrel.</div></div>

All generalizations are false. (And, yes, that's a generalization.)

I have one rifle where the cold bore is very consistently 1.4 mils high, to a tenth of a mil.

Here's a picture of a 5 shot group with that rifle. It's obvious which is the cold bore. That barrel has more than 6,000 rounds through it, and it may be near the end of its useful life. As you can see, though, it shot the other four rounds into a nicely small group - those are 1 inch dots, and the target was shot at 100 yards. And, yes, I had dry-fired before firing that group.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Cold Bore

This past Sunday prior to our match resuming I fired three rounds at 100 yards from a just cleaned, true cold bore. Air temp was approx 35 degrees. All three shots were in a dot just under .2, no POI difference/change. CBS (cold bore shot) is more about CSS (cold shooter shot)

Try dry firing your rifle 3-5 times prior to firing your first shot. Think about your NPOA and form behind the rifle each snap. Try to hold the cross hairs dead nuts on target and get a comfortable, repeatable set up with the rear bag and the right bipod height. Don’t fight it. I think you'll find that your POI shift, if it exists will go away. Some rifles have a fouling shot in them and some don’t, you'll have to let your rifle tell you that.

As one used to say, spent primers are the supreme tutor.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Cold Bore

Lindy,

I've been told that when a rifle barrel reaches the end of the road it'll start to throw fliers. It has to do with extreme throat wear. After 6000 rounds, I'd say your barrel is almost tired and all the red is licked off that piece of candy.

 

[mdesign]

Re: Cold Bore

Not sure what LL would call a cold bore shot but here is one approach to you might take.

Go to the range set up your target and fire one shot, repeat for 5 days and see what your five shot group looks like.

When shooting at targets of interest, we identify the target, prepare and take the shot. Our training, technique and preparation will determine how consistant that first shot will be.

If I had a gun like Lindy's and was only allowed 1 shot, I would sight it in for where that first bullet would hit.

 

[WyoRanchHand]

Re: Cold Bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A cold bore isn't what you think it is... </div></div>

 

[deadeyeky]

Re: Cold Bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WyoRanchHand</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A cold bore isn't what you think it is... </div></div></div></div>

what is a cold bore?, talk about leaving less knowlegable shooters a cliffhanger

 

[huntem]

Re: Cold Bore

I certainly agree with the practice of dry firing a rifle. With that said, my daughters hunting rifle Sako AV with a new 24" shilen select match barrel has the same POI with a clean or fouled bore.

My 300RUM with a 28" select match barrel will throw the clean bore shot 2" higher than the fouled barrel shots (L/R 1/4"). I have cleaned the barrel at the range to find the results the same as my first string of shots.

I'm voting on the argument of depends on the rifle.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Cold Bore

William: I regard "fliers" as unpredictable rounds impacting other than on the point of aim. The cold bore for that rifle is thus not a flier, because it's only the cold bore shot, and it's very predictable. You might be right about the barrel, though. It still shoots well other than that cold bore shot.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: Cold Bore

I shoot 200rnds between cleanings. My rifle is always on at 100yds within about 1/2" depending on where I'm shooting, weather conditions etc. So I never really gave cold bore much thought. Then again I'm not an leo sniper or a sniper at all. Within 1/2moa always seemed close enough at 100yds for me.

 

[oneyardstare]

Re: Cold Bore

Its without a doubt diffrent from barrel to barrel, but my 308 Ruger MKII target grey went from one-minute of a barn to 1/4 MOA shooter with moly. And the cold bore shots are always dead-one, always.

 

[Cartman]

Re: Cold Bore

I grew up with a "cold bore" shot being your first shot at a target -- whether the barrel was physically cold or hot. A point was made that groups didn't matter as much as being able to put that first shot on its target.

Now I'm curious as to what Lowlight's conception of a "cold bore" shot is.

 

[doc76251]

Re: Cold Bore

I preface my comments with the fact that I do not clean my rifles bore after every range trip (generally 600 - 800 rnds between bore cleanings).

Cold Bore is simply where your rifle shoots the first shot, EVERY TIME.

It is incumbent on the shooter to know the POI for the condition of what type of cold bore he is shooting.

CDCB: Clean Dry Cold Bore means the rifle is clean w/ no oil or cleaning solvent in the barrel at all. Think alcohol as a last couple of patches.

CWCB: Clean Wet Cold Bore is how some shooters leave their rifles after cleaning, with a coating of oil or other cleaning solvent in the bore.

CB: Cold Bore is when the bore was left untouched after the last shooting series.

The shooter should have the information for all bore conditions.

I dare say the CWCB is the most variable and unpredictable in that fluids can compress only VERY slightly and will affect the velocity (therefore impact) of the shot dramatically. You only get one or maybe 2 CB shots per range trip. Those shots should be taken deliberately and with as much precision as the shooter can muster. They also should be the only shots on a target or aiming point. I also subscribe to LL's concept of only shooting one shot per aiming point. The effects of a shooters particular CB regimen can then be observed singly with each shot w/o the clutter of a "group".

The psychology of a CBS or Cold Body is an entirely different topic but directly related. LL has a rather informative post on the topic.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[gugubica]

Re: Cold Bore

I am not to big on cold bore shift. Some rifles have it, the VAST majority do not. Clean vs. fouled has a much higher deviation.

As to the OPs question. Get a laser themometer. Take a reading inside the chamber when you get setup, but before your first shot. When you are ready to repeat this, keep taking readings on the same spot until the temp is the same as your initial reading. This will get you close.

 

[eleaf]

Re: Cold Bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A cold bore isn't what you think it is... </div></div>

Perhaps not, but then again just about everything is based off of theory. I'm looking more to be humored than anything else.

 

[eleaf]

Re: Cold Bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not to big on cold bore shift. Some rifles have it, the VAST majority do not. Clean vs. fouled has a much higher deviation.

As to the OPs question. Get a laser themometer. Take a reading inside the chamber when you get setup, but before your first shot. When you are ready to repeat this, keep taking readings on the same spot until the temp is the same as your initial reading. This will get you close. </div></div>

Thank you.

Though I'm not complaining about the awesome info that I was getting through the various posts in this thread (everything I read now is a learning experience), I found it interesting that it wasn't until multiple posts in that I actually got anything resembling an answer to the question.

Even if what some term as cold bore depends on the rifle, I would need to do thorough testing to see whether my rifle is one of those that do deviate or not.

I'm not sure whether to go along with the idea that cold bore = cold shooter or whether I should go along with what the shooting community has held as a basic tenant of shooting for quite some time. The Army still teaches it in Sniper School (if the various Documentaries on Military Channel are to be believed), and various tactical shooting schools look specifically at the cold bore shot. That said, I'm not one to believe something just because that is what we have always believed. I'm a firm believer in the idea that "the truth will not set you free, questioning the truth will."

I still want to get the DOPE on it whether the idea of a cold bore is valid or not. even if cold bore does in fact = cold shooter, I need to have that info catalogued and analyzed.

 

[psinclair]

Re: Cold Bore

Cold bore, cold smore...its all in your mind...I shoot coyotes with a rifle for a living and about half of the coyotes I shoot are "cold bore". If I ever let that into my head I'd never get anything killed.....IMO its a non factor. Just shoot....a lot!!

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Cold Bore

I can't find the image I want of Jim shooting the "Cherry Popper" at the Rifles Only training, but what we do is a 2 shot drill and his is a single hole which demonstrates it very effectively.

it's true, some rifles have an issue, and usually they are do to a defect that has yet to be nailed down. The truer statement is in regards to the Cold Body / Cold Mind way of thinking. We do it just about every class, and it works. Even with Army units.

the simplest test: Shoot a rifle with no regard to cold bore anything and put about 10 rounds downrange, hell even 5 will do. Then move to a rifle with a supposed cold bore shift... 99% of the time, the cold bore shift will go away because you have inoculated yourself to the Cold Body / Cold Mind effect. You can even shoot a .22 --- just shoot something else first. This is simple gross test, the fine test would be to execute some dry fires which will significantly reduce the shooter's deviation.

One thing I have noticed is AI AE experience this shift, and i think it is a threading issue with the barrels... I can't nail it for sure, but here is an great example of a reasonable cold bore issue.

Note the rounds are "walking"... a cold bore to hold true would have to walk because heat increases. However I have shown -- albeit in less than sciencitific ways that Temperature is not the factor people think it is.
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3UZ-mApuUoM"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3UZ-mApuUoM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

Here you can see there is no shift... as far as the velocity argument to this, look at anyone's chronograph numbers on this site... they never change in a straight line, they never all go up, or all go down, they move within the spread, in both directions so again, the heat and velocity is not the culprit.

It's like a lot of things, many, many shooters don't experience cold bore deviations and once they get it out of their head, it completely leaves. You can search "Cold Bore" and see some experienced shooters will tell you this.

Now, you may see a Clean Bore deviation because you probably stripped all the copper out, copper which is beneficial to your barrels accuracy. Because it is necessary to fill in small imperfections, or season the metal to place the barrel likes. So stripping it is definitely not recommended which is why it is recommended you leave the barrel fouled. You can do a full cleaning but I recommend firing at least 3 rounds to foul it. I make no effort to remove the copper unless accuracy goes south, which rarely happens, sometimes over 1000 rounds it will, but then a bore snake inbetween solves the problem.

Again, I wish I had the image of Jim's targets, as well as others who have been to class who see this first hand.

Cold Body / Cold Mind, its what fucks us when we try to shoot tiny groups to post on the refrigerator -- we may like the think the rifle just decided to fuck us, but the reality of the situation is, it's all in your head. You shoot 4 shots in a perfect .3" group and the 5th goes south, or usually, it's 3 great shots, the 4th is out, and the 5th is back in because we mind fuck ourselves -- its not the rifle, or the ammo.

Heat is not the enemy, your mind is

 

[eleaf]

Re: Cold Bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't find the image I want of Jim shooting the "Cherry Popper" at the Rifles Only training, but what we do is a 2 shot drill and his is a single hole which demonstrates it very effectively.

it's true, some rifles have an issue, and usually they are do to a defect that has yet to be nailed down. The truer statement is in regards to the Cold Body / Cold Mind way of thinking. We do it just about every class, and it works. Even with Army units.

the simplest test: Shoot a rifle with no regard to cold bore anything and put about 10 rounds downrange, hell even 5 will do. Then move to a rifle with a supposed cold bore shift... 99% of the time, the cold bore shift will go away because you have inoculated yourself to the Cold Body / Cold Mind effect. You can even shoot a .22 --- just shoot something else first. This is simple gross test, the fine test would be to execute some dry fires which will significantly reduce the shooter's deviation.

One thing I have noticed is AI AE experience this shift, and i think it is a threading issue with the barrels... I can't nail it for sure, but here is an great example of a reasonable cold bore issue.

Note the rounds are "walking"... a cold bore to hold true would have to walk because heat increases. However I have shown -- albeit in less than sciencitific ways that Temperature is not the factor people think it is.
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3UZ-mApuUoM"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3UZ-mApuUoM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

Here you can see there is no shift... as far as the velocity argument to this, look at anyone's chronograph numbers on this site... they never change in a straight line, they never all go up, or all go down, they move within the spread, in both directions so again, the heat and velocity is not the culprit.

It's like a lot of things, many, many shooters don't experience cold bore deviations and once they get it out of their head, it completely leaves. You can search "Cold Bore" and see some experienced shooters will tell you this.

Now, you may see a Clean Bore deviation because you probably stripped all the copper out, copper which is beneficial to your barrels accuracy. Because it is necessary to fill in small imperfections, or season the metal to place the barrel likes. So stripping it is definitely not recommended which is why it is recommended you leave the barrel fouled. You can do a full cleaning but I recommend firing at least 3 rounds to foul it. I make no effort to remove the copper unless accuracy goes south, which rarely happens, sometimes over 1000 rounds it will, but then a bore snake inbetween solves the problem.

Again, I wish I had the image of Jim's targets, as well as others who have been to class who see this first hand.

Cold Body / Cold Mind, its what fucks us when we try to shoot tiny groups to post on the refrigerator -- we may like the think the rifle just decided to fuck us, but the reality of the situation is, it's all in your head. You shoot 4 shots in a perfect .3" group and the 5th goes south, or usually, it's 3 great shots, the 4th is out, and the 5th is back in because we mind fuck ourselves -- its not the rifle, or the ammo.

Heat is not the enemy, your mind is </div></div>

I appreciate all of the great info. Are you an instructor at RO? I'm very likely to attend the April PR 1&2 course. I'm sure to learn a lot if this is the kind of info I'll be getting (actually, I'm certain to learn a lot even if trained monkeys are teaching the course, LOL).

For argument's sake, however, shouldn't it be a good idea to get the DOPE on the "Cold Shooter" shot then to find where <span style="font-style: italic">I</span> am apt to shoot before <span style="font-style: italic">I</span> am warm? I'll be the first to admit that the most dangerous thing I have ever shot at is paper. I don't make my living with a rifle, and I certainly don't have any hostile engagements where the bad guys shoot back (or worse). That said, I want to be prepared, even if it's all simply an academic exercise in the end. All of the data I can get seems of paramount importance, especially if that data highlights <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> tendencies rather than the rifle's.

I'm an academic by nature, so gathering info, even if unusable in the end, is ingrained in my methodologies whether it be for shooting at paper or analyzing the orthographical tendencies of a particular 12th century scribe.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Cold Bore

yeah LL is an RO Instructor

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Cold Bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For argument's sake, however, shouldn't it be a good idea to get the DOPE on the "Cold Shooter" shot then to find where I am apt to shoot before I am warm? I'll be the first to admit that the most dangerous thing I have ever shot at is paper. I don't make my living with a rifle, and I certainly don't have any hostile engagements where the bad guys shoot back (or worse). That said, I want to be prepared, even if it's all simply an academic exercise in the end. All of the data I can get seems of paramount importance, especially if that data highlights my tendencies rather than the rifle's.
</div></div>

No because it is more of an error in technique and once you learn to shoot correctly all these little issues appears to fall to the wayside.

If you find your rifle has an issue, then record it, however work on you first the rifle after. What will happen is you'll show expecting one thing, put that in your mind and then it becomes very difficult to counter because you planted a seed that didn't need to be there.

 

[exhogflyer]

Re: Cold Bore

To some of the new guys that are involved in this post ( and I have NO way of knowing what your shooting experience is) let me recommend that you sign up for the online training here.I am not a professional, nor would I classify myself as an expert shooter...more like a knowledgeable "hobbyist".I CAN tell you that you will learn a LOT from the program, and you will also find several things that work that may not make sense until you actually try them.I know I did, and my shooting has improved 1000%, to the point that I now know what will happen, EVERY SHOT,before I break the trigger.What Lowlight says makes sense, works, and you will understand why....

 

[mdmp5]

Re: Cold Bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Cold Body / Cold Mind, its what fucks us when we try to shoot tiny groups to post on the refrigerator -- we may like the think the rifle just decided to fuck us, but the reality of the situation is, it's all in your head. You shoot 4 shots in a perfect .3" group and the 5th goes south, or usually, it's 3 great shots, the 4th is out, and the 5th is back in because we mind fuck ourselves -- its not the rifle, or the ammo.

Heat is not the enemy, your mind is </div></div>

I agree with Frank's logic. It is comparable to bowling, when you can bowl 2 strikes in a row, gutter ball the 3rd roll, and then bowl another strike on the 4th roll. Why does this happen? You psych yourself out, bc you know that 3 strikes in a row is a sought feat. Plus a funny looking stick figure turkey flashes on the score screen, which is cool.

 

[harrisjl]

Re: Cold Bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: palmik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Cold Body / Cold Mind, its what fucks us when we try to shoot tiny groups to post on the refrigerator -- we may like the think the rifle just decided to fuck us, but the reality of the situation is, it's all in your head. You shoot 4 shots in a perfect .3" group and the 5th goes south, or usually, it's 3 great shots, the 4th is out, and the 5th is back in because we mind fuck ourselves -- its not the rifle, or the ammo.

Heat is not the enemy, your mind is </div></div>

I agree with Frank's logic. It is comparable to bowling, when you can bowl 2 strikes in a row, gutter ball the 3rd roll, and then bowl another strike on the 4th roll. Why does this happen? You psych yourself out, bc you know that 3 strikes in a row is a sought feat. Plus a funny looking stick figure turkey flashes on the score screen, which is cool. </div></div>

Thats where I am currently, I make one hole bigger bigger, bigger, get shot8-10 wow I'm doing good bet I screw this last one up..bang yep.

I'm switching to shooting dots next time.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Cold Bore

Dots are worse.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Cold Bore

dots are terrible for your moral unless you are GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD

 

[garandman]

Re: Cold Bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I still want to get the DOPE on it whether the idea of a cold bore is valid or not. even if cold bore does in fact = cold shooter, I need to have that info catalogued and analyzed. </div></div>



THere's ALOT about LR / precision shooting that simply cannot be either catalogued or analyzed. It just don't fit into data books. Its specific to specific rifles, ammo loads, wind / temp / humidity conditions, individual shooters, and a dozen other variables.


Just when you THINK you got the definitive answer you don't.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Cold Bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dots are terrible for your moral unless you are GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD </div></div>

Bang...got it.


Bang...got it.


Bang...got it.


Bang...got it.


Bang...got it.


Wow, I might actually clean this dot drill target...


Bang...DAMN IT!


Oh well...


Bang...got it.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Cold Bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I have noticed is AI AE experience this shift, and i think it is a threading issue with the barrels...

Note the rounds are "walking"... a cold bore to hold true would have to walk because heat increases. </div></div>

Like this (the center circle). This was an AE zeroing target. But really, if this is truely a core bore issue, I think I can live with less than 1/2 MOA shift.