Comp Equipment Questions

[bdubb]

For those of you who compete on a regular basis, what focal plane do you feel is most beneficial for a competition?

I can understand a SFP for small targets at known distances, but is a FFP something that is needed for ranging on the UKD ranges in a comp. or are you able to use a range finder and just stick with a second focal plane optic? I'm yet to experience a competition so I am just overall curious as the FFP have taken off recently maybe for more real life situations, but have also read some about a SFP as a competition optic due to the more fine crosshairs at long range small targets.

 

[thrusty]

FFP not only excels in situations where you're presented with UKD targets, but they also allow you to adjust your magnification necessary for a given course of fire and/or the environment and not have to worry about your reticle subtensions changing.

2 simple examples:
1 - Course of fire where you have multiple targets that are spread apart and you need to zoom out from your max setting in order engage then quickly engage without struggling to find them.
2 - extremely hot and humid day and the mirage is terrible. Your 25x scope allows you to see nothing but the hazy air...FFP allows you to zoom out to a more manageable zoom and engage using your typical, known, holds.

 

[epaultmbt]

Don't put your crosshairs over relatively small targets.

 

[fargo007]

Or turn the magnification down too far. Then the reticle looks like a far away plus sign and is unusable.

Tuned in SFP shooters use the magnification ring relationship to the reticle as a tool rather than condemning it as a flaw.

The reality is that they both have advantages and shortcomings and that you have to know what you are doing with EITHER of them.

I have competed with both and have done well with both. One is simply not better than the other for competition purposes.

I bet if you search you'll find a ba-jillion SFP vs. FFP threads.

--Fargo007

 

[Spot-on]

"Tuned in SFP shooters use the magnification ring relationship to the reticle as a tool..."

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

 

[Mendocino]

FFP. Don't bother with a SFP. Also, you should minimize the magnification changes during a stage, it wastes time and frequently shooters lose the target in the scope while changing magnification.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

"Tuned in SFP shooters use the magnification ring relationship to the reticle as a tool..."

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

Maybe I can elaborate.

I use a 4-16 PST SFP on my rifle. I treat it mostly like a straight 16X scope; that's a pretty useful magnification without getting too high.

I figure if I have time to mil targets, I'm going to have it on 16X to get the most precise measurement.

If I am forced to shoot an unsteady position, I'm going to set the scope on a lower magnification and dial for wind. To me its easier to press the trigger when the crosshairs are on target instead of trying to hold left or right.

Now if there's a moving target, I dial back to 8X, and treat every half mil hash mark as a full mil. Not very complicated.

In the case that I miss my target and see my impact, the mil value doesn't matter unless I'm going to dial a correction for a follow-up shot. Most of the time if I'm spotting my impact and there's enough distance for a wind call to really matter...I'll probably have it set to 16X.

I'm not saying SFP is the way to go. I've got what I got because I'm cheap and poor. But it is not as severe a handicap as some would make it.

Now I do think FFP becomes more useful at higher magnifications. If I was using a 6-24, or 5-25, or some kind of holdover reticle, I'd definitely want FFP.



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[Va_Gentleman]

FFP. Don't bother with a SFP. Also, you should minimize the magnification changes during a stage, it wastes time and frequently shooters lose the target in the scope while changing magnification.

+1000

 

[RobertB]

What kind of competition are you talking about first off?

I have both and find a place for both.

If I was shooting the intimidator match at TVP in Ohio, I would want a big heavy rifle with great ballistics and a 5.5-22 NF with a NP-R1 reticle. It is very precise and I will probably dial my solution and if I hold wind I will probably be a full power but dialing it is no problem.

If I was shooting more run and gun matches I would want a lighter more balanced 5-20 FFP scope or a 2-10 SFP scope. All depending both can work very well.
People have done so well with SFP for a long time and the new array of FFP scopes out make it seem like you cant do with it.

I love my FFP scopes, cant lie. But I'm not going to say that your handicapped with a good SFP.
One of the guys I look up to the most in the Sniping business is most happy with a 2.5-10x40 scope. He has humbled a lot of people with it before.
Tell him that whatever is better and why and he will tell you many people have fallen to his redfield 3-9 SFP with a duplex reticle.

New things in the field are great and making more people more capable but a well rounded marksman will make a SFP a very usefull tool. Pick your scope wisely and you can do well

EX: If your looking into NXS line of nighforce, For the run and gun type shooting you would stay away from the 12-42 and the 8-32. You would have to look and line up your power ring to put you on a usefull power with your reticle..The 2.5-10, 3.5-15, or 5.5-22 would be different stories, all of them you can crank the power ring all the way to have useful powers but you can crank em all the way down to have usefulness as well. Not much wrong with that if you are able to use it wisely. FFP reticles you need to be choosey with. There are some that just plain suck and some are great. I like the Christmas tree style myself. The G2 and the Vortex styles I like a lot. If you get a reticle too thick so that it looks good on the low end its seems to big on the high end. And if you want a thin reticle on full power it disappears when all the way down. Most of the top line FFP scopes are really well thought out though with the reticles. Its the cheaper FFP scopes that you need to watch out for but I don't recommend cheap scopes one bit anyway unless its to shoot through to play Carlos Hathcock LOL.

If I could only have 1 scope I think my location would decide what kind it would be. If I got time to plan the shot and really take things in for a long poke, SFP all the way.
If its a more rushed shot that might not be too far away then FFP can start to shine. A ffp scope can do well for ELR shooting and many love it for that role but I don't as much.
Some of these new scopes offer so much its hard not to love em. But when I want to shoot a small target at 1500 yards and I'm dialed in nice and rock solid I really like my SFPs thin reticle.
If bad guys come out from different places the FFP scopes would get a nod if their over 700 yards or so.

You just need to do some research and find out what role it will need to fill the majority of the time.
Try to get with guys that have both and let them show you why they like/don't like a certain one.
Their are WAY too many guys with a lot of rounds under their belt using a rifle for what it was originally made for that want a SFP scope to let a bunch of internet hands tell you that they suck.
Perhaps it is the way they were trained and brought up, perhaps they are just too old school.

You need to find out what YOU want.


Good luck bro!

 

[Willys46]

I think it's more important to pick one and stick with it. That goes for MIL VS MOA, SFP or FFP. I picked the SFP because I figured I would have no real reason to be ranging a target at less than max power. The idea is to be as accurate as possible right?

For run and gun turn it down to 11 power, bigger filed of view nd now I have a perfect hold for movers, the first hash becomes 4 MOA, hold on a edge of a target and you have your aprx 5 MOA hold. If its short enough range that I need 5.5 to find targets, I probably do not need the reticle for anything besides the center cross hair.

Both will work and I see advantages with either one, the biggest issue I see is guys changing their stuff all the time and never LEARNING their current set up.

 

[RobertB]

So true Willys

 

[fargo007]

Now if there's a moving target, I dial back to 8X, and treat every half mil hash mark as a full mil. Not very complicated.


Now I do think FFP becomes more useful at higher magnifications. If I was using a 6-24, or 5-25, or some kind of holdover reticle, I'd definitely want FFP.



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This is one such instance. The lead for most movers is 1-1.2 MILS. A half MIL hash in a scope at half magnification becomes a full MIL. It makes it very easy and convenient. Most SFP shooters I know run their scopes on half magnification all the time except for target ID, RE, or situations where they need to see their bullet impacts on paper targets. For me this is 11x.

Doing all your shooting at the highest end of your magnification (over 17x or so) is a huge mistake. That magnification is there for range estimation and target ID, not for shooting. Running at super high magnifications in a comp is a mistake for other reasons beyond marksmanship as it often leads to difficulty locating a target under the stress of time, and acquiring the wrong target and cross-firing. I say this to point out that you shouldn't be giving the presence or likelihood of high magnification usage a lot of weight in the decision.

Aside of movers (which you need to crush in any comp to place well) you will usually have a multiple distance drill that you have to hold over or under to hit the targets in limited time. I like the advantage of having a FULL SIZE reticle to work with while still being able to control the FoV. The hashes are visually the same every time. They never get so close together (like on an FFP dialed down) that there's a danger of misreading them in the split second that you have.

SFP reticles are typically substantially thinner and more precise. Some like that too. And the reticle looks the same to your eye, every time you open it up and look through the scope.

There's really no right or wrong choice here.

If possible, see which one you shoot best with. You may be surprised to see that you shoot substantially better with one than the other.

--Fargo007

 

[Jim See]

op, when I shot my first field/tac match with a sfp 5-22 nf, I quickly realized the disadvantage. With 25 mph gusty conditions wind calls needed to be made on the fly, dialing just would not cut it when you have 45 seconds to engage 5 targets spread out thru rolling terrain, each one requiring a different hold. The need for fast target acquisition necessitated turning the power down to as low as 8 for certain cofs others were shot anywhere from 12 to 22. You will simply confuse yourself on any cof that is above the beginner/intermediate level.

Yesterday I shot a cof of 3 targets it required hitting steel plates starting at 275, 2nd at 375, third at 475, then hit 375 again and finish shooting 275 again, in that order.
5 shots in 30 seconds all requiring different wind holds and elevation holds, in the 10-13 mph wind we had. Target size varied from 1.5-2.5 moa. I would have never cleaned it with a sfp scope unless it was 10 power or less.

 

[bkw1911]

I think ffp is important if you're shooting a tactical match for misses. Your almost always under a time restraint and you dont want to be doing math in your head based on what magnification you're on. Its nice being able to measure it exactly on your reticle and recorrect quickly for a follow up shot.

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[fargo007]

I think ffp is important if you're shooting a tactical match for misses. Your almost always under a time restraint and you dont want to be doing math in your head based on what magnification you're on. Its nice being able to measure it exactly on your reticle and recorrect quickly for a follow up shot.

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This applies to both types of scopes 100% equally.

--Fargo007

 

[fargo007]

Yesterday I shot a cof of 3 targets it required hitting steel plates starting at 275, 2nd at 375, third at 475, then hit 375 again and finish shooting 275 again, in that order.
5 shots in 30 seconds all requiring different wind holds and elevation holds, in the 10-13 mph wind we had. Target size varied from 1.5-2.5 moa. I would have never cleaned it with a sfp scope unless it was 10 power or less.

Jim,

You are aware that you can use an SFP scope effectively at magnification levels other than the maximum right?

I really don't see how a stage like this is impossible or even slightly more difficult by using an SFP scope. We run stages like this ALL the time that incorporate targets that size or smaller and even at further distances than that.

--Fargo007

 

[JRWALLSIII]

This is the original question

For those of you who compete on a regular basis, what focal plane do you feel is most beneficial for a competition?

The answer is easy. FFP

Can a SFP work? Yes
Could a peep site work? Yes

Bottom line is a FFP is what you need in tactical matches to give you an advantage.
Most guys who will go out and shoot and practice regular are sound trigger pullers. Most guys have a great chance on winning on any given day. Winning is about good fundamentals and making less mistakes than your fellow shooters on the clock and under pressure. A FFP scope will help you make less mistakes

 

[bkw1911]

Agreed.

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[Rob01]

This is the original question

For those of you who compete on a regular basis, what focal plane do you feel is most beneficial for a competition?

The answer is easy. FFP

Can a SFP work? Yes
Could a peep site work? Yes

Bottom line is a FFP is what you need in tactical matches to give you an advantage.
Most guys who will go out and shoot and practice regular are sound trigger pullers. Most guys have a great chance on winning on any given day. Winning is about good fundamentals and making less mistakes than your fellow shooters on the clock and under pressure. A FFP scope will help you make less mistakes

That's the answer. You plan on shooting tactical comps then get a FFP scope. One less thing to worry about under stress of competition when there is always one more thing to worry about.

 

[JC Steel]

FFP is the way to go, not even a question about it really.

 

[Jim See]

Jim,

You are aware that you can use an SFP scope effectively at magnification levels other than the maximum right?

I really don't see how a stage like this is impossible or even slightly more difficult by using an SFP scope. We run stages like this ALL the time that incorporate targets that size or smaller and even at further distances than that.

--Fargo007

yes I am aware. but the complication of using a scope with 1/2 mil lines set to lets say 12.5 power so every 1/2mil=1mil on a sfp scope.
now calculate 5 holds for elevation and 5 for wind, then hold half of that in your scope to compensate for 1/2 power.

so now my 3 elev holds for 5 engagements in 30 seconds is .7-1.4-2.1 on a FFP, very conveniently multiples of 7

Your 3 holds for 5 engagements in 30 seconds are now .35, .7, and 1.05 in your SFP, multiples of what? 3.5, with less reference in your scope for precision aiming.

and we have not discussed wind. My wind for those 3 shots is .5 .6 .7 very convienient holds on a FFP with a 1/2 mil slash.

In 30 seconds I don't want to have to recall your numbers vs my numbers, and 10 minutes later go into a stage that I can use the scope at 25 power and have the 1/2 lines = 1/2 mil when I just shot them at 1 mil.

under stess of movement and time constraints our minds don't work the same as if we have 20 minutes to prepare and 2 minutes to shoot. any scope can work under those circumstances when the turrets can be dialed. You can choose to run a SFP, but you will loose points at some point during a match because of it.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

yes I am aware. but the complication of using a scope with 1/2 mil lines set to lets say 12.5 power so every 1/2mil=1mil on a sfp scope.
now calculate 5 holds for elevation and 5 for wind, then hold half of that in your scope to compensate for 1/2 power.

so now my 3 elev holds for 5 engagements in 30 seconds is .7-1.4-2.1 on a FFP, very conveniently multiples of 7

Your 3 holds for 5 engagements in 30 seconds are now .35, .7, and 1.05 in your SFP, multiples of what? 3.5, with less reference in your scope for precision aiming.

So here's how I approach this with my puny second focal plane scope.

A.) Shoot it on 16X and live with it.

B.) Shoot it on 8X and treat every 1/2 mil hash mark as a full mill. I still use the same holds, I just have to make that mental note before I go into that stage. Granted if I somehow forget that note, then I can screw the pooch, but I'll remember if I miss that first shot really quick.







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[fargo007]

yes I am aware. but the complication of using a scope with 1/2 mil lines set to lets say 12.5 power so every 1/2mil=1mil on a sfp scope.
now calculate 5 holds for elevation and 5 for wind, then hold half of that in your scope to compensate for 1/2 power.

so now my 3 elev holds for 5 engagements in 30 seconds is .7-1.4-2.1 on a FFP, very conveniently multiples of 7

Your 3 holds for 5 engagements in 30 seconds are now .35, .7, and 1.05 in your SFP, multiples of what? 3.5, with less reference in your scope for precision aiming.

and we have not discussed wind. My wind for those 3 shots is .5 .6 .7 very convienient holds on a FFP with a 1/2 mil slash.

In 30 seconds I don't want to have to recall your numbers vs my numbers, and 10 minutes later go into a stage that I can use the scope at 25 power and have the 1/2 lines = 1/2 mil when I just shot them at 1 mil.

under stess of movement and time constraints our minds don't work the same as if we have 20 minutes to prepare and 2 minutes to shoot. any scope can work under those circumstances when the turrets can be dialed. You can choose to run a SFP, but you will loose points at some point during a match because of it.

Except that's not the way it's done at all.

The dope does not get "converted" to align to the reticle. The dope is absolute.

Shooters using an SFP this way don't mathematically convert holds because it's not required. They apply their holds against the reticle at twice its value.

My holds would be exactly the same, so my .7 is just before the first hash, my 1.4 is 'bout halfway between the first and second, and my 2.1 is just below the second has below center. It's not difficult at all and we shoot a version of this drill in every single monthly match to 637Y that is heavy with movers, holdovers and multiple distance changes and nobody with an SFP experiences the difficulty you are describing, leastwise me.

I respect that an FFP might be better for you personally though, and maybe for others who haven't bought something. But that doesn't mean a shooter with an SFP who knows how to run his gear cannot accomplish the exact same thing. And it CERTAINLY doesn't mean a shooter with a good quality SFP scope should feel from this that he's under some disadvantage. He's not. In either case he needs to learn how to run his gear properly. That's all.

--Fargo007