I'll shoot .2 groups with my 6ppc, but my .223 and .338LM are doing .75 to 1.25 consistently. I do the exact same thing with my .223 and .338LM that I do with my 6ppc , I start with new Lapua brass, turn necks, Debur flash holes, uniform primer pockets, resize using an RCBS Pardner press, Redding full-Length S-type bushing die, seat bullets with a Wilson micro-top bullet seater. I pulled out a Sinclair Concentricity guage. My 6ppc has less than a thousandth runnout on any round. The .223 and .338LM have as much as eight thousanths runout on some rounds, and average about three to four thousanths runout with a few under two thousanths. I don't understand how come I'm doing all the same things with the .223 and .338 as with the 6ppc, but not getting the same results. What else can I do to control runnout?
- Thread starter JDBraddy
- Start date
I got in the habit of using the concentricity gauge before and after each process. It lets me know which processes are causing how much runout. If your brass is bent to begin with, or if you have a cockeyed die, you can identify the problem and do something to correct it. Usually something like throwing some money at it.
The concentricity gauge is a wonderful tool, but it is also a curse. Reloading was simpler and happier before I bought one.
Guy walks into a bar with a pig under his arm. Walks up to bartender and says, "Man, my loaded rounds are exhibiting a lot of runout. I'm scared, hurt, and confused. What can I do to alleviate what is, to me, a rather serious problem?!?"
The bartender looks at the guy, looks at the pig, and looks back at the guy. Without taking the cigarette out of his mouth, the bartender says, "Lose the concentricity gauge, stupid. Now buy a drink or get the $%#^ out of here."
The concentricity gauge is a wonderful tool, but it is also a curse. Reloading was simpler and happier before I bought one.
Guy walks into a bar with a pig under his arm. Walks up to bartender and says, "Man, my loaded rounds are exhibiting a lot of runout. I'm scared, hurt, and confused. What can I do to alleviate what is, to me, a rather serious problem?!?"
The bartender looks at the guy, looks at the pig, and looks back at the guy. Without taking the cigarette out of his mouth, the bartender says, "Lose the concentricity gauge, stupid. Now buy a drink or get the $%#^ out of here."
I agree with the above post. One step in your process is producing the runout. The cheap fix for me is a Lee collet die. I've reduced runout on some FGMM that I bought once fired and found several thousandths runout in. They're cheap and work great.
I think that a concentricity gauge has benefit in chambers with tight necks, which is why I don't have either.
At my age, there's a good chance my guns will be passed on, so I deliberately use only SAAMI spec chambers. This way, a cartridge loaded to SAAMI specs (i.e. commercial ammo) will generally be safe for my descendants to use in my rifles.
There is an accuracy tradeoff (a .2" group is practically impossible with my guns), but the resulting accuracy capacity meets or exceeds my real time needs, and those of my descendants.
Greg
At my age, there's a good chance my guns will be passed on, so I deliberately use only SAAMI spec chambers. This way, a cartridge loaded to SAAMI specs (i.e. commercial ammo) will generally be safe for my descendants to use in my rifles.
There is an accuracy tradeoff (a .2" group is practically impossible with my guns), but the resulting accuracy capacity meets or exceeds my real time needs, and those of my descendants.
Greg
So you get .2" groups with your 6ppc, but your 223 and 338 are not the as tight in spite of doing everything the same for all three. What you are doing different is using different dies for each caliber.
Cheap fix is to use a body die and a Lee collet die like Kansas suggested.
OFG
Cheap fix is to use a body die and a Lee collet die like Kansas suggested.
OFG
What kind of rifles are we talking about here? A custom 6ppc is going to shoot better then a factory .223 or .338, or an apples to oranges comparison regarding accuracy. I think the real question is, "Why is there runout with .223 and .338 and not my 6ppc ammunition as I use the same process for all of them." There is a reason that its a top choice for BR competition. 6ppc brass is also just made better then .223 or .338 brass even though its all lapua and its a smaller, short fat case so there is less flex. I suspect that your custom 6ppc has a tighter chamber and as a result your 6ppc brass gets deformed less in that chamber so there is less sizing required to bring it back to size. Provided you use the same press for all ammo I would size a few of each new cases and measure runout. If your cases are not straight to start, your bullets will not be straight. After that measure some neck wall thicknesses, I bet the 6ppc brass will be better. Now neck turn the .223 and .338 LM brass and run it back through the sizing dies and check runout to see if its better. Provided you have selected some cases with .001 runout, seat some bullets and measure again. If you NOW have runout then your seating die(s) is/are part of the problem, its possible your bullet seater is not compatible with your bullets. A LR highpower match over two days requires 100-120 shots for score so I make do with .003 runout or less.
My 6ppc is a used Hamond built Remington 700, Shillen 1in14 twist, R-7 profile barrel, .262 neck, McMillen stock, Jewel trigger.
My .223 is a factory Remington 700 SPS varmint in a Bell&Carlson stock, with a Jewel trigger, and the original factory barrel. I also have rifles set up exactly the same in 7mm-08 and .308Win.
My .338LM was also bought used, built by Phoenix Custom Rifles, Stiller Tac-338 action, Rock Creek 29" 1in9.4 twist MTU profile barrel with Fat Bastard break. McRee chassie, Rifle Basix trigger.
I measured some 3X fired .338 cases after resizing and none of them had more than .002 runnout.
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Haven't needed to do any trimming or worry about run out, since I started using the Lee collet die sets for my 260 and 308 reloading. Simple and very accurate solution. Each set about $29 and have several sets for each caliber for different weight bullets. Reloading now much quicker and more fun, which my shooting is all about!
As a benchrest shooter, I have to ask this question. Why is it that you don't shoot your 223 or 338 at a benchrest match? Why does everyone else at benchrest matches shoot the PPC cartridges? Have you ever wondered why no one has recently won a benchrest match with a 30-30? Talk to the top shooters in benchrest. Ask them these same questions. I think some of the many answers you might get will say the the shape of the case and the geometry of the powder column, MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT. The quality of your rifle and the way it was set up, might have something to do with it. Are the barrels made the same by the same barrel makers? Ask any benchrest shooter that finishes in the top half of the matches. They'll tell you that when accuracy sort of falls off they look at the barrel for answers.
I hope I have started you thinking.
Good luck,
Victor
I hope I have started you thinking.
Good luck,
Victor
I understand some of that, and admit much of it is still over my head, but will take your word for it. I don't think I have unrealistic expectations. I know a factory rifle and a .338LM aren't likely to be capable of anything near the 0.077" bughole group my PPC shot a couple matches ago, but I know the 7mm-08 and .308 I have set up the same as my .223 will do 1/2 MOA and am frustrated my .223 won't. The .223 is probably the rifle I shoot the most, inexpensive to feed, and pleasant to shoot. It's the one I most want to get shooting well. I went looking for reasons why it wasn't performing like it's medium sized siblings, started looking at my ammo and noticed the concentricity issue, didn't know much about trouble shooting it, but though it might be a variable that I could remedy fairly easily, and was seeking advice how to do so. If I have to, I'll have it bedded, re-barreled, and whatever else needs to be done, but was hoping to find a simpler and less expensive solution to get it shooting 1/2 MOA like it's siblings. The .338LM is new to me, I've only put 100 rounds through it,and haven't had much chance to mess with it yet, but when you sink three grand on a custom rifle, you do hope for a little better than 1.25 MOA.
Points well taken, but I shoot F open with my 260 and want to do well, but mostly just want to have fun. Benchrest seems like it's for OCD individuals who have better to do with their free time. When I've watching matches they seem quite boring to me. I'm more into tactical shooting, wanting to make first round hits out to 1200 yards, if possible, but doesn't ruin my day or the fun of shooting LR and ELR. Just saying.
The reason your non-PPC rounds exhibit more runout is because they are being fired out of loosely configured chambers. The more the brass is allowed to expand the more it is stressed the more runout you'll get. I minimize runout by body sizing with a Aredding body die and then neck sizing with a Lee collet neck die.
Your 1.25" groups are not due to the runout. Your load sucks.
Your 1.25" groups are not due to the runout. Your load sucks.
Sorry to hear that your .223 is not as hot as you would like it to be. I suspect that a new barrel would help quite a bit.... Before you do that you might try to skim bed the action into the stock. I have had good success with this in the past on 3-4 factory varmint guns. You bed the action into the stock as one normally does, you just don't remove any material from the stock; I bed 1-1.5 of the barrel. See what happens, it might help if your groups indicate some shifting of bedding. Me, I would be thrilled with a .75 MOA factory gun and I am content with 1 MOA 10 shot groups (2" at 200 yds) from my custom barrel guns too, Most do a little better then 1 MOA. If you have not shot the .338 at range, see what happens, there are some that subscribe to the theory that VLD bullets need to "go to sleep" and while I'm not sure I buy that (I have witnessed bullets that went down range like a cork screw before...) , I have one rifle that shoots about 1 MOA at 100 and 2-3" at 300 yds a 3" group at 300yds is better then a 1" at 100 yds. And again, eliminating .003-.004 runout will not make a 1 MOA load shoot into .25 MOA.
OP, don't feel too bad because I've had two custom 6PPC benchrest rifles that shot like yours and was unable to duplicate the accuracy they exhibited when I had them rebarreled into different chamberings. IMO 6PPC is the most accurate round ever created. They'll ruin a guy.
I think part of your problem might be tracking of the stock. A flat forend and a flat bottomed benchrest bag help with consistent accuracy.
Is your 223 a stock rifle? I've only had one stock rifle that shot anywhere close to my customs and that was a Cooper M21. It could be considered a factory custom.
Too a point and for different reasons...if your custom rifles will not group .5 moa off the bench they probably weren't put together well. As far as them shooting as well as the 6PPC, abandon the notion.
I think part of your problem might be tracking of the stock. A flat forend and a flat bottomed benchrest bag help with consistent accuracy.
Is your 223 a stock rifle? I've only had one stock rifle that shot anywhere close to my customs and that was a Cooper M21. It could be considered a factory custom.
Too a point and for different reasons...if your custom rifles will not group .5 moa off the bench they probably weren't put together well. As far as them shooting as well as the 6PPC, abandon the notion.
First things first. When has your 223 barrel had the muzzle re-crowned? I would start there. I re-crown my bench gun barrels every 200 rounds. My other rifles when I look at them with a 15X microscope and can see a burn radius clearly forming. It needs to be clearly sharp.
So you are trying to get full house custom gun accuracy out of a factory Rem 700 .223? I just have to laugh at that.
Im not judging you as a shooter as you obviously know what you are doing, same with your reloading practices.
But to think a factory Rem 700, which has an arguably shit twist rate(1-12, unless you got a 1-9 twist), with a loose chamber with a LONG throat, will shoot as well as a full house custom gun is laughable. I would bet your barrel on your 6ppc cost more than your entire Rem 700 setup costs(minus glass).
I cant comment on the .338 since I am not a 338 shooter, but that setup(mechanically) looks good.
I would look at a re-barrel of the Rem 700 into something good before you go chasing your tail with your reloading practices, which IMO, unless you have a bad component in the mix, are pretty thorough IMO.
Im not judging you as a shooter as you obviously know what you are doing, same with your reloading practices.
But to think a factory Rem 700, which has an arguably shit twist rate(1-12, unless you got a 1-9 twist), with a loose chamber with a LONG throat, will shoot as well as a full house custom gun is laughable. I would bet your barrel on your 6ppc cost more than your entire Rem 700 setup costs(minus glass).
I cant comment on the .338 since I am not a 338 shooter, but that setup(mechanically) looks good.
I would look at a re-barrel of the Rem 700 into something good before you go chasing your tail with your reloading practices, which IMO, unless you have a bad component in the mix, are pretty thorough IMO.
A couple thoughts.
Take one piece of brass and measure the runout before and after every operation. If runout is the issue, you need to find out where it is coming from. You checked your fired rounds and they are good; that's not it. If you don't use enough lube during sizing, you might deform the neck. If your neck tension is too high, you might deform the neck during seating.
A RCBS Pardner press is not the stiffest pencil in the drawer. I have one laying around somewhere and I would be overjoyed to give it to you. My single-stage presses are mostly RCBS A2s. They are steel so they could be stiffer but they cannot be any stronger and still lift-able without tools.
You have concluded that runout is the source of your not-small-enough groups. Have you validated that? For example, have you made some ammo with very small runout and tested it to see if it shoots little groups? If you shoot BR, you have probably met Tony Boyer and his slightly goofy good-luck hat. In his book he makes the point that his rounds have runout and still shoot in the zeros and ones.
Have you done any serious load development for that 338? I shoot with a guy who has one. He shoots woodchucks with it between 850 and 1,000 yards. He gets one often enough. He typically sits and looks at the range for 15 or 20 minutes, picks a condition, puts a round on the 36-inch plate at 1k, adjusts his scope for that condition and waits for critters. A pallet of bricks talks more than he does but he shoots chucks.
Take one piece of brass and measure the runout before and after every operation. If runout is the issue, you need to find out where it is coming from. You checked your fired rounds and they are good; that's not it. If you don't use enough lube during sizing, you might deform the neck. If your neck tension is too high, you might deform the neck during seating.
A RCBS Pardner press is not the stiffest pencil in the drawer. I have one laying around somewhere and I would be overjoyed to give it to you. My single-stage presses are mostly RCBS A2s. They are steel so they could be stiffer but they cannot be any stronger and still lift-able without tools.
You have concluded that runout is the source of your not-small-enough groups. Have you validated that? For example, have you made some ammo with very small runout and tested it to see if it shoots little groups? If you shoot BR, you have probably met Tony Boyer and his slightly goofy good-luck hat. In his book he makes the point that his rounds have runout and still shoot in the zeros and ones.
Have you done any serious load development for that 338? I shoot with a guy who has one. He shoots woodchucks with it between 850 and 1,000 yards. He gets one often enough. He typically sits and looks at the range for 15 or 20 minutes, picks a condition, puts a round on the 36-inch plate at 1k, adjusts his scope for that condition and waits for critters. A pallet of bricks talks more than he does but he shoots chucks.
I guess so, I changed bullets in the .338LM, tried some 300gr SMK's over 91gr of H-1000 and even through runnout was comparable, my group sizes went from almost four inches to two inches at 300yds. I guess there's a reason they cost twice as much as the 225gr Horiday SST's. I've got some more coming along with some 53gr Sierras, hope I have similar results in the .223.
There are several other things you might consider for analytical tools before you go and assume it's all about your run-out. You might have a look at your throat wear, using a Hornady "Stoney Point" COAL gauge. This will help you indicate how much jump your bullets witness before land engagement. Since you're shooting a bolt gun, you might be willing to seat the projectiles to within 0.020" of touching. Next, you MIGHT be willing to cast your chamber with cerrosafe. This would provide you an accurate mould of your chamber, throat and leade. With these numbers, you might be able to figure out if your guidance in the throat is too excessive in diameter, compared to the diameter of the projectile. Or, you COULD also witness if the chamber was perhaps cut "off-square".
Next, you could lap your barrel. If you've never done this one, I'd encourage you to do it, just for the experience. Here's how: Take the barreled action out of the stock. Scope off too. Mount the barrel, muzzle up AND at AT LEAST 45 degrees, in a soft-jaw vise. You want the barrel pointed a little bit "closer to the ground, than closer to the sky". This way, when the lead pours off the head of the muzzle, it won't form a "mushroom head". OK, now, insert a cleaning rod with a wrap jag on it, within ~ 2 inches of the muzzle. Now, heat up some lead. Wheel weights will do. Molten. Pour that lead down into your muzzle, and let it harden. Absolutely enable the extra lead to pour off, onto the ground. If you form a mushroom head, discard this "lap" and start again. So, once you've finally got a lead lap that'll pass back into the bore, and is secured upon the wrap jag, remove the barrel from the vise, and tighten it back up horizontally. Now, slowly move that lap to and fro, feeling for any tight or loose spots in your barrel. If anything, it is acceptable to feel a tight spot at the muzzle, and everything else should be looser. You should not generally feel any "skips", nor should you feel any tighter spots than that at the muzzle. You may go a step further, and place some clover lapping compound on the lead, and work the barrel over for a while. If you choose, you may remove "odd" tight spots with the lapping compound.
I have lapped numerous barrels over the years, to include black-powder guns, and barrels that folks thought were absolute junk. It IS possible to give new life to these old work horses, but be warned: If there's an overly worn throat, or misalignment in the chamber/bore, lapping won't help.
Good luck!
Next, you could lap your barrel. If you've never done this one, I'd encourage you to do it, just for the experience. Here's how: Take the barreled action out of the stock. Scope off too. Mount the barrel, muzzle up AND at AT LEAST 45 degrees, in a soft-jaw vise. You want the barrel pointed a little bit "closer to the ground, than closer to the sky". This way, when the lead pours off the head of the muzzle, it won't form a "mushroom head". OK, now, insert a cleaning rod with a wrap jag on it, within ~ 2 inches of the muzzle. Now, heat up some lead. Wheel weights will do. Molten. Pour that lead down into your muzzle, and let it harden. Absolutely enable the extra lead to pour off, onto the ground. If you form a mushroom head, discard this "lap" and start again. So, once you've finally got a lead lap that'll pass back into the bore, and is secured upon the wrap jag, remove the barrel from the vise, and tighten it back up horizontally. Now, slowly move that lap to and fro, feeling for any tight or loose spots in your barrel. If anything, it is acceptable to feel a tight spot at the muzzle, and everything else should be looser. You should not generally feel any "skips", nor should you feel any tighter spots than that at the muzzle. You may go a step further, and place some clover lapping compound on the lead, and work the barrel over for a while. If you choose, you may remove "odd" tight spots with the lapping compound.
I have lapped numerous barrels over the years, to include black-powder guns, and barrels that folks thought were absolute junk. It IS possible to give new life to these old work horses, but be warned: If there's an overly worn throat, or misalignment in the chamber/bore, lapping won't help.
Good luck!
Good to hear that your 338 is behaving a little better. Its sad to say but in some guns you just cant get some bullets to shoot as well as others. Its also strange that if you have two loads with the same velocity and different powders one will shoot and the other will not. Go figure. Re-crowning the .223 barrel is cost effective if you think there is even a small burr; I had a factory WIN .223 that would shoot good groups with a flyer or two in each group, upon inspection of suit on the muzzle, I identified a burr, had the barrel cut back 1" and the thing shot great.
