Rifle Scopes *Correction* milrad scopes? *Correction*

#2
Re: Metric Scopes?

There are no such things as "metric" scopes, and there is nothing "metric" about mils.

Milliradians, MOA and IPHY (inches per hundred yards) are measurements of angle which have <span style="font-weight: bold">nothing</span> whatsoever to do with any system of linear measure.

There are two times Pi radians in a circle, and a milliradian is simply one-thousands of a radian.

One milliradian is an angle which subtends an arc whose length is 1/1000th of the distance from the vertex.

In other words, one milliradian subtends an arc whose length is:
1 yard at 1000 yards.
1 meter at 1000 meters.
1 mile at 1000 miles.
1 league at 1000 leagues.
1 fathom at 1000 fathoms.
1 inch at 1000 inches.
1 foot at 1000 feet.
1 lightyear at 1000 lightyears.
1 attoparsec at 1000 attoparsecs.
3.6 inches at 3600 inches (100 yards).

It has nothing to do with any English or Metric system of linear measure.
 
#3
Re: Metric Scopes?

Fraid I have to disagree with you there... I am talking about angular mils(NATO)


1 mil is 1 meter @ 1000 meters
or
1 decimeter @ 100 meters
or
1 centimeter @ 10 meters

The common mil is used primarily for range estimation and calling/adjusting indirect fires.

There are 17.7 mils in a degree.
3.43775 MOA in an angular mil.


A shooter's mil is 1cm @ 100m, or 0.1 mil.

A metric scope has shooter's mil asjustments as aposed to MOA adjustments. So 10 clicks on a metric scope would= 1 mil.

I know that millradian is just slightly less than a angular mil, so the range estimation would not be perfect, but close enough for my application.

I recently trained with a Bundeswehr Sniper team and I like the "Shooter's mil" system better than MOA, mostly because of its compliance with angular mils. So I plan on changing my system over to metric scopes. (Also if some one knows a different term for "shooter's mils" please let me know. I made that term up myself because no one would know what the hell I was talking about if I said "schutzenmil".)

And saying that there are no such things as metric scopes check the link below:
Carl Zeiss
 
#4
Re: Metric Scopes?

Also, I looked more at the zeiss only(not hensoldt) line.

Are the conquests suitable for tactical applications? Do they hold zero under rough handling?

They are under the zeiss tactical line, and are farely well priced, but the big blue logo on the side kinda tells me its a hunting/range scope that they just decided to market as a tactical scope to boost sales.
 
#5
Re: Metric Scopes?

I'm sorry that you apparently cannot read, and are so woefully misinformed.

A tenth of a milliradian is an angle which subtends an arc which is one yard in length at a distance of 1000 yards. What's metric about that?

Schmidt & Bender used to label their turrets "1 cm @ 100 meters". Eventually they wised up, and now label them as "0.1 mrad".

The NATO "mil" is based on a mil of which there 6400 in a circle, which is not a true milliradian. There are, in fact, 4 different military "mil" systems, of which only one is the true milliradian. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_mil

There is no such thing as a "shooter's mil" - there are only true milliradians, and everything else.

There are a bunch of manufacturers not in Europe, including Nightforce, Premier Reticles, U.S. Optics, and Leupold, which make scopes with 0.1 milliradian clicks.

That does not make them "metric" scopes.
 
#6
Re: Metric Scopes?

Wallace you would be wise to read what Lindy writes and learn from it as he is right and knows what he is talking about on the subject. This has been hashed over here many times.
 
#9
Re: Metric Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wallace11bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I know that millradian is just slightly less than a angular mil, so the range estimation would not be perfect, but close enough for my application.
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wallace11bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
(Also if some one knows a different term for "shooter's mils" please let me know. I made that term up myself because no one would know what the hell I was talking about if I said "schutzenmil".)
</div></div>

I have been schooled, but thank you for setting me straight.

I learned the NATO mil system and that is what I am going to stick with. I know that it is not correct in terms of trigonometry or extreme long range shooting, but the NATO mil allows for easy crossover between various applications, with an acceptable loss in accuracy.

For what it is worth, yes you are right. I apologize for learning the wrong terminology for units of measurement on scopes. Since the term "metric scopes" is terribly incorrect. Do you have any scopes with 0.1 milrad adjustments that you would reccomend for my application?
 
#10
Re: Metric Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And now...for the best part...

http://sites.google.com/site/midwesttacticalsolutions/

</div></div>

You will also notice that I am not teaching extreme long range shooting. The LRM portion is only very basic and is only IPSC sized targets 600m.

As a teacher, I beleive that there is no such thing as too much knowledge, I am trying to expand my knowledge base and experience in the area of long range shooting, and I aplogize if that makes me seem foolish.
 
#13
Re: Metric Scopes?

The first question would be to you. Have you taken the time to read through any of a number of the “sticky” posts here on this website. This is not intended to slight or to belittle you. It is intended to help us understand if you are looking for the “quick” answer or are you looking to understand the topic on a much more broad basis.

The old adage of give a man a fish or teach a man to fish is very relevant to this discussion.
 
#14
Re: Metric Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wallace11bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Do you have any scopes with 0.1 milrad adjustments that you would reccomend for my application?</div></div>

What's your price range?
 
#15
Re: Metric Scopes?

up to $1000. This is for a 5.56 SPR. I only want to shoot out to 800m.

I stress the importance of ruggedness. i.e. the leupold mark 4's on our EBRs hold up fairly well as far as holding zeros, but the POS(i dont know what brand) scopes that we got issued a few years ago would loose from a very mild bump.
 
#16
Re: Metric Scopes?

By using "NATO" mils (1/6400) instead of trigonometric mils (1/6283) - which is the unit used by scope manufacturers - you inducing a 1.8% calculational error. Even at intermediate ranges like 400 yards that would amount to 7.5 inches.
 
#17
Re: Metric Scopes?

Keep in mind with all this, I've only used MOA until just last week.

So if my path at 400yds is approx -30in, with 1.8% error, that would be less than 0.5 inches. Where is the 7.5 in error coming from?

I may need schooled again...
eek.gif
 
#18
Re: Metric Scopes?

Your number is correct. I don't know where he came up with 7.5.

However, there's absolutely no point in using a NATO "mil" in reference to shooting, because no reticle is graduated in that system, nor is there a scope which adjusts in it.

 
#24
Re: Metric Scopes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your number is correct. I don't know where he came up with 7.5.</div></div>

Just thinking incorrectly. That's how.
 
#25
Re: Metric Scopes?

Here's a thread discussing Mils and MOA from just last week:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1768148

I'm with ewoaf, ST-10 Mil/Mil... although I do like high power scopes. I don't think I shoot any better with a 25x but I like it. It does depend on what you personally want.
I usually use the 50/50 rule for scopes. The cost of the scope equals the cost of the rifle.
 
#27
Re: Metric Scopes?

Thanks for all the info and criticism.

I can tell that my venture into long range engagements is going to be a big learning step for me.

I definetly plan on taking a civilian long range course when I'm out of the Army.(sniper school slots here are VERY limited, only 17% of our sniper team members are B4s, regiment wide)
 
#28
Re: Metric Scopes?

Sniper school is about a lot more than shooting, as the tasks of a military sniper include so much more than shooting.

As such, a good civilian training course can bring you up to speed on the shooting aspects pretty quickly, and give you a lot of things to practice.
 
#29
Re: Metric Scopes?

Lindy,

I am amazed how you can repeatedly explain the same thing over and over again and not getting frustrated. You are the best teacher anyone can hope for in learning LR shooting. Enough said.
 
#30
Re: Metric Scopes?

Thanks! Much of what I post is pasted from files saved on my computer, as the same issues arise repeatedly. It's not much trouble, and it matters that the people who read this site get accurate information.

I've really only made about 12 posts which have each been repeated 1,000 times...
laugh.gif
 
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