Gunsmithing Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build.

[DedicatedShooter]

I recently had my Remington 700 .308 blueprinted and re-barreled. I have an AICS stock and he had to set back the inlet for the recoil lug .006" in order to compensate for the few thousandths he took off of the action face while truing the action. He also had to open up the screw holes in the stock as the action screws were contacting the stock. Before he modified the stock he found that the action was barely contacting the stock and was binding at front of the action because the stock was too long from the rear action screw hole to the back of the recoil lug inlet. I know this is common practice as the stock is built for a factory action's length. Has anyone else had to do this with an AICS build?

While working up a test pack, I measured the throat with a Hornady OAL gauge. I found that I could load out to 2.798" (2.800" is SAAMI spec for .308 Win.)

So I worked up a test pack with different amounts of jump, from .005"-.030" in .005" increments. What I noticed was that even with .030" of jump, I am still getting rifling marks on the bullet as if it is contacting the lands, when in fact, it should not be contacting anything.

I can't understand how this can be and I don't know if it is normal. I haven't been able to get the rifle to shoot as well as I would like yet. My best 5 shot groups have been with FGMM and were .4" at 100 yds. though FGMM isn't consistently sub-.5" at all. It shoots anywhere from .75"-.4". I keep getting unexplainable fliers with FGMM and my handloads as if there are pressure spikes from the bullets being jammed into the lands. I am very careful with my handloads, I weigh on a scale that is accurate to .002 grains which allows me to weigh my powder with kernel to kernel accuracy. I also weigh and sort my bullets and brass.

I was recommended to go to this particular gunsmith from 2 very reputable sorces who have had guns built by him, so I am in doubt that he made a mistake, but no one is perfect.

How could the gunsmith have cut the chamber incorrectly? What can I have him go back and check? What else do you think?

Thanks a lot!!

 

[300sniper]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build.

i want to know how much material was removed from the receiver face to require removing material from the rear of the lug recess in an aics.

 

[DedicatedShooter]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build.

I am not sure. But if you shorten the action length and the chassis is left at factory length, then it will bind where the recoil lug and action face meet.

 

[DedicatedShooter]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i want to know how much material was removed from the receiver face to require removing material from the rear of the lug recess in an aics. </div></div>

Does sound fishy. I thought the same thing. Skim Bed the chassis and roll with it. </div></div>

After he modified the stock he said he still wasn't 100% happy with how much of the action was contacting the stock. He said it was almost like my action had a bit of a bow in it. He suggested I try shooting it and see how it goes, but if it does not shoot good enough, he wants to skim bed it.

 

[DedicatedShooter]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Soft seat a bullet (case neck about .002" smaller than bullet diameter) and leave it slightly long. Close the bolt on it and remove from the rifle. Check for land marks and shorten the COAL slightly if needed. Use that same bullet in a tighter case neck and keep going between the rifle and die until you have very light to no land marks. Polish the bullet with 000 steel wool each time and look at it under a magnifying glass if need be to see the faint marks.

If your at 2.780” it sounds like a 1995 Palma reamer was used.
</div></div>

What does that method tell me? I don't really understand what that would tell me after performing it. I only have a Lee collet die so I don't know how I would increase/decrease my neck tension outside of ordering new dies.

<span style="color: #CC0000"> Also, my COAL is 2.798", I typed the wrong number in my original post.</span>

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build.

I run several bullets at 2.800" with no problem in a chamber cut with a 95 Palma reamer.

I don't mean this to be a smartass comment, but are you sure you know what the rifling marks look like? I ask that as a friend of mine with lots of reloading experience was mistaking the compression marks that are made as the bullet is formed with the rifling contact marks. I have to use a magnifying glass to find them, and even long ones are very light.

 

[KYS]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build.

Post a pic of the bullets in question.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DedicatedShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not sure. But if you shorten the action length and the chassis is left at factory length, then it will bind where the recoil lug and action face meet.

</div></div>

when truing a receiver, you are removing a few thousandths from the face at most. there <span style="font-style: italic">should</span> be more than enough room in an aics's action screw holes and bolt handle inlet to allow for that.

 

[DedicatedShooter]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I run several bullets at 2.800" with no problem in a chamber cut with a 95 Palma reamer.

I don't mean this to be a smartass comment, but are you sure you know what the rifling marks look like? I ask that as a friend of mine with lots of reloading experience was mistaking the compression marks that are made as the bullet is formed with the rifling contact marks. I have to use a magnifying glass to find them, and even long ones are very light. </div></div>

hahaha thats a valid question, no worries. but yes I know what rifling marks look like. and the marks in question come after chambering a round. I'll post pics tomorrow.

I also don't have a 95 Palma chamber. I posted the incorrect OAL in my original post. I can load out to 2.798".

 

[DedicatedShooter]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DedicatedShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not sure. But if you shorten the action length and the chassis is left at factory length, then it will bind where the recoil lug and action face meet.

</div></div>

when truing a receiver, you are removing a few thousandths from the face at most. there <span style="font-style: italic">should</span> be more than enough room in an aics's action screw holes and bolt handle inlet to allow for that. </div></div>

I talked to the smith and he only removed a few thousandths from the action face. But there was definitely not enough room in the recoil lug area within the stock. It was binding and not allowing the screw holes on the action to align properly with the screws themselves. And removing material from the action face won't effect the spacing in the inlet for the bolt handle. Also, if a factory action and recoil lug are properly contacting the inlet within the stock (which mine was flush before being trued) then removing even .001" from the action face would require the same to be removed from stock as the recoil lug is going to be set back .001" now. Without modifying the stock, the stock will cause the action to bind where it meets the recoil lug.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DedicatedShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DedicatedShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not sure. But if you shorten the action length and the chassis is left at factory length, then it will bind where the recoil lug and action face meet.

</div></div>

when truing a receiver, you are removing a few thousandths from the face at most. there <span style="font-style: italic">should</span> be more than enough room in an aics's action screw holes and bolt handle inlet to allow for that. </div></div>

I talked to the smith and he only removed a few thousandths from the action face. But there was definitely not enough room in the recoil lug area within the stock. It was binding and not allowing the screw holes on the action to align properly with the screws themselves. And removing material from the action face won't effect the spacing in the inlet for the bolt handle. Also, if a factory action and recoil lug are properly contacting the inlet within the stock (which mine was flush before being trued) then removing even .001" from the action face would require the same to be removed from stock as the recoil lug is going to be set back .001" now. Without modifying the stock, the stock will cause the action to bind where it meets the recoil lug. </div></div>

ok. good luck.

 

[LRI]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build

Here's what I would do:


With the rifle assembled,set up an indicator to measure deviation from the action/stock. The common practice is to clamp on the barrel with the stylus touching the stock. Back off your guard srews individually. If the needle moves more than .001" your stock needs work.

What you are measuring is deflection/strain on the action and/or stock.


Regarding seating depths. There is no magic answer. Anyone who can conclusivley say that "x" reamer requires "y" seating depth in order to maximise accuracy with "z" bullet is invited to work at my shop for all the $ I have. I'll even do his laundry.

Dies are intended to be adjustable for precisely this reason. No one knows as each rifle is individual. Now that being said there are "themes" that guns tend to follow. A 308 winchester is about as easy going as it gets. The load at 100 yards whether its weighed or thrown should not cause "orphans" in shot plots. BR guys load all of their ammo this way and get away with it all day long close up. Its when you stretch. Your legs that weighing charges becomes advantageous.

I'm betting towards you having an underlying gun problem. Ammunition work may help to tune some of it out but bandaids don't cure a disease. They just mask it.

Check the bedding and check the blueprint. Most production stocks use at least a .275-.3125 hole for guard screws. That's anywhere from .0125 to .03125 oversize on a radius. If the action won't go into the stock with that kind of clearance then you have bigger issues than a seating depth. Especially when your told it took "a few thou" to clean up the receiver and you can't assemble the thing afterward.

Good luck

 

[300sniper]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


With the rifle assembled,set up an indicator to measure deviation from the action/stock. The common practice is to clamp on the barrel with the stylus touching the stock. Back off your guard srews individually. If the needle moves more than .001" <span style="color: #FF0000">your stock <span style="text-decoration: underline">needs</span> work</span>. </div></div>

since we are on a site for tactical rifles, not benchrest rifles, i'll say that is debatable. my action moves WAY more than .001" away from the chassis if i loosen the front screw with the rear screw still torqued. i have a few trophies including the "top long range shooter 2010" from our local matches that says that stock work isn't <span style="text-decoration: underline">needed</span>. could it benefit from bedding? possibly. would i see that benefit? probably not. i've never lost a match and said to myself, "damn, if i would have bedded this, i would have won." it usually goes more like, "damn i pulled that shot" or "damn, i sure screwed up that wind call".

no don't get me wrong. i feel action to stock fit is extremely important and i'd never go out of my way to introduce stress. people are using aics setups because they are drop-in and work as they were designed. they are not benchrest stocks.

 

[STR]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build.

Boy William, you know your stuff. You are the man.

 

[LRI]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build

Noted. Proof is always in the pudding and ill never argue that. In this case however its not winning matches. He's getting orphans and with the concerns/comments regarding stock fit already being mentioned it seems far more plausable to me to be gun problem rather than a seating depth issue.

Nevermind that he's only shooting at 100 yards. Takes one hell of a switch or pickup to blow a 308 almost half a minute.

Brings up a good point though: OP, are you seeing elevation in your plots when they open up or is just wild/erratic?

Last the deviation measurement only detects a distance. Says nothing about the force involved. If I bed a gun to a popcicle stick and it has .001 deflection it means little. Clam the same gun to a block of aluminum and have .001 and suddenly there may be several hundre lbs of force at work here. Apples belong with apples.

Great post!

C.

 

[DedicatedShooter]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Noted. Proof is always in the pudding and ill never argue that. In this case however its not winning matches. He's getting orphans and with the concerns/comments regarding stock fit already being mentioned it seems far more plausable to me to be gun problem rather than a seating depth issue.

Nevermind that he's only shooting at 100 yards. Takes one hell of a switch or pickup to blow a 308 almost half a minute.

Brings up a good point though: OP, are you seeing elevation in your plots when they open up or is just wild/erratic?

Last the deviation measurement only detects a distance. Says nothing about the force involved. If I bed a gun to a popcicle stick and it has .001 deflection it means little. Clam the same gun to a block of aluminum and have .001 and suddenly there may be several hundre lbs of force at work here. Apples belong with apples.

Great post!

C. </div></div>

to answer your question, just wild, no pattern.

Well I think I have decided that I am going to have my smith skim bed my action in the AICS. I have read a lot of good things about doing this AND my smith told me that my action has a bit of a bow in it.

Also, he has built numerous .308's for other people off of Rem 700 actions and they shoot lights out with one ragged hole-type groups. This is the first time he has ever worked with a chassis system stock. He builds bench guns most of the time, and is an older guy, so he is used to bedding and pillars, not the new chassis systems. So it was a bit of a learning curve for him as well.

Given the fact that my rifle has shot under 1/2 MOA with FGMM ammo, I know that it is going to be a shooter, but I need to find the right load (obviously) but I wonder if doing a skim bed will help squeeze out that last bit of accuracy and consistency?


Thanks for the input by the way! it is very much appreciated

 

[KYS]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DedicatedShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Noted. Proof is always in the pudding and ill never argue that. In this case however its not winning matches. He's getting orphans and with the concerns/comments regarding stock fit already being mentioned it seems far more plausable to me to be gun problem rather than a seating depth issue.

Nevermind that he's only shooting at 100 yards. Takes one hell of a switch or pickup to blow a 308 almost half a minute.

Brings up a good point though: OP, are you seeing elevation in your plots when they open up or is just wild/erratic?

Last the deviation measurement only detects a distance. Says nothing about the force involved. If I bed a gun to a popcicle stick and it has .001 deflection it means little. Clam the same gun to a block of aluminum and have .001 and suddenly there may be several hundre lbs of force at work here. Apples belong with apples.

Great post!

C. </div></div>

to answer your question, just wild, no pattern.

Well I think I have decided that I am going to have my smith skim bed my action in the AICS. I have read a lot of good things about doing this AND my smith told me that my action has a bit of a bow in it.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Also, he has built numerous .308's for other people off of Rem 700 actions and they shoot lights out with one ragged hole-type groups. This is the first time he has ever worked with a chassis system stock. He builds bench guns most of the time, and is an older guy, so he is used to bedding and pillars, not the new chassis systems. So it was a bit of a learning curve for him as well.</span>

Given the fact that my rifle has shot under 1/2 MOA with FGMM ammo, I know that it is going to be a shooter, but I need to find the right load (obviously) but I wonder if doing a skim bed will help squeeze out that last bit of accuracy and consistency?


Thanks for the input by the way! it is very much appreciated </div></div>

I would have went over this with him prior to sending my parts. I think that should have been disclosed and I would not want my rifle used as the guinea pig for his learning curve.

 

[badbot]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build

"After he modified the stock he said he still wasn't 100% happy with how much of the action was contacting the stock. He said it was almost like my action had a bit of a bow in it. He suggested I try shooting it and see how it goes, but if it does not shoot good enough, he wants to skim bed it."

I would ask him if he thinks the action is bowed why did he not try it on a straightedge?

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build

I'm still puzzled that he took metal off the rear face of the recoil lug cut out.
I had a 6.5x47 build done. The gunsmith trued the R700 action, chambered the barrel, installed a Holland lug, bushed the firing pin, etc. When it got to me the lug was too long and thick for the standard AICS chassis. I opened the cutout taking metal from the front only and then shortened the lug to get it to seat properly. No removal of any metal at the rear of the lug. No additional depth cut on the lug cutout. The action dropped in, bolted up and shot small groups.
I just hope the chassis is not ruined.

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build

Agreed!

 

[DedicatedShooter]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The cold hard facts are this;

Yes, when the guard screws are loosened, your receiver will move. That’s the nature of the beast in an unbedded chassis.

No, the GS in question should not have cut the rear of the recoil lug recess..........period.

If the rear of the recoil lug isn’t seated firmly against the rear of recoil lug recess in the chassis, it'll never shoot, period.

Remington receivers are never concentric to the center line of the bolt raceway thus having stress in them when installed in a chassis.

The rifle in question needs the front and rear of the receiver skim bedded to include the recoil lug recess area. This will insure a stress free foundation for the receiver to sit in/on and help to secure the recoil lug and prevent rearward movement if now present.


</div></div>

The rear of the recoil lug is now sitting completely flush against the recoil lug recess. Before modifying the stock, it was not. So there is no rearward movement of the action. But, I am going to have him skim bed it as my action is bowed.

thanks for the input everyone.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DedicatedShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The rear of the recoil lug is now sitting completely flush against the recoil lug recess. Before modifying the stock, it was not. So there is no rearward movement of the action. But, I am going to have him skim bed it as my action is bowed.

thanks for the input everyone. </div></div>

what about the bottom of the lug? can you see daylight between the bottom of the lug and the chassis?

what is your torque procedure for this?

 

[Turk]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build

The more one reads this thread; the answer seems to be "YES" to the OP's original question!

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Could my gunsmith have screwed up?? AICS build

Since this is an AICS chassis, you may leave the action bolted in and see just how the lug area and screws fit by removing the skins.
IMHO, a qualified gunsmith should never, ever, never remove or add material to the rear of the recoil lug area.