Could Use Some Input on my Fundamentals

Gustav7

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  • Jul 18, 2019
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    I have been practicing a lot more this summer on proper fundamentals learned through this forum and podcasts/videos/ etc... so thank you to all who have put out good info and helped in that regard.

    I know in-person training is king, but with a 3 month old kid and remodeling 3 rooms in our house right now, floating in person training isn't gonna happen until 2021 most likely...but I do plan on getting some legitimate training. So for now I've just been practicing at 100 and 300yds working through the fundamentals.

    I'll attach a few videos of me shooting, one from the side and one from the front, as well as the groups that accompanied those videos.. Rifle and load info below.

    Savage 10 - 24" - B&C Target/Comp Stock - CDI bottom metal
    147 ELD-M - CCI 450
    Starline SRP brass - Mandrel(.0015 neck tension) - PP uniformed - chamfer/deburr
    41.8gr H4350 averaging 2715ish fps.

    Every time I get to the range I do 5-10 dry fires, building a position each time working on natural point of aim. NPA has been the hardest thing for me to get down. I then confirm my zero, do a couple warm up shots and go into my group shooting and dot drills, etc. I should mention, I try to use the rear bag as little as possible and I use my support hand to try and control and hold the rear of the buttstock. I use the rear bag to steady my support hand. The rifle is definitely not sitting on the rear bag heavily.

    The last two range trips I've made two adjustments:
    1.) Get my shoulders more square and to stop putting my support elbow so far forward
    2.) Move the butt stock closer to my face so I don't have to lean my head over and reduce the reticle movement to the left after firing.

    This is the first real group for practice for the day. I felt like I went a bit fast for me, and maybe still had a bit of flinch going on. Follow through felt good and eye flinch was minimum for me. The group I shot is below that. The reticle finished high, and a little left on a couple of the shots. Obviously theres one yank there, and I felt that one so I knew I screwed it up. The vertical stringing.... I'm curious is that my breathing or NPA? or possibly something else

    Ballistic-X-Export-2020-09-23 11:38:48.872172.PNG

    Heres my best feeling group of the day, and a side recorded video of it. A side note... I pop my thumb up and down a little to try and remind myself to not put any pressure on it. The 3 grasper fingers are attempting to pull straight back. Group is the best of the day, but seems to really be two groups, both awesome, but not together lol. Not sure whats causing that, I'm assuming a shift in body position maybe which slightly changed impact. Reticle still finished a bit high and to the left but definitely an improvement. It finished about 1-2 mils high and maybe a mil to the left. So maybe 6" high and a few inches to the left.


    Ballistic-X-Export-2020-09-23 11:36:33.068597.PNG

    Any input at all would be helpful. If that input is keep doing what you're doing and with practice you'll get better then that works as well. Appreciate the help guys. If it's not really plausible to see how I'm shooting based on the videos, lemme know what might help. Just trying to get better and would prefer to snip out any bad habits or reinforce good habits now.
     
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    Dthomas3523

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  • Jan 31, 2018
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    Doesn’t look bad at all. The vertical could be several things. You should know if it’s your breathing as you either break your shots at the bottom respiratory pause, or you don’t. Be conscientious about it going forward.

    You built the bridge with shoulder an bipod well in the first video. However you shuffled around after quite a bit. Might look to rebuild it in the further if you find yourself shuffling around after building bridge.
     

    Gustav7

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  • Jul 18, 2019
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    Doesn’t look bad at all. The vertical could be several things. You should know if it’s your breathing as you either break your shots at the bottom respiratory pause, or you don’t. Be conscientious about it going forward.

    You built the bridge with shoulder an bipod well in the first video. However you shuffled around after quite a bit. Might look to rebuild it in the further if you find yourself shuffling around after building bridge.
    I appreciate the response. I'll try to be more mindful of the breathing aspect. I was definitely trying to keep a calm, steady breath...but I'll give more adage to the bottom of the breath and the break of the trigger.

    The shuffling is a combo of maybe not the best NPA and where my recoil finishes. Although it's been probably cut in half since I started making minor adjustments, I'm still finishing my recoil high and to the left. The shuffling I think was after 2-3 shots, and the stacking of recoil management was throwing off my NPA a tad, so I adjusted to try and get back on it.

    At this point, I'm hoping repetition is going to be the best reinforcer of NPA for me. I feel like I have the motions down, I just need to get the habitual feel for it. Sometimes its spot on, sometimes I feel like I'm shifting for a minute before its locks in.

    Its like putting on an 3 layers of shirts....they just don't feel right at first and once you keep wiggling around they finally fall into place. Well right now I'm the 7 year old kid who has apparently never worn multiple shirts in his life lol...
     
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    308pirate

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  • Apr 25, 2017
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    I think you're on the right track. I agree that a lot of correct reps are needed to get NPA and position building right.

    I liken creating the prone position to drawing a handgun. You need a lot of good reps to go from a soup sandwich to something effective that you do subconsciously.
     
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    hereinaz

    I have no idea why I get these new labels...
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  • Mar 7, 2018
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    Doesn’t look bad at all. The vertical could be several things. You should know if it’s your breathing as you either break your shots at the bottom respiratory pause, or you don’t. Be conscientious about it going forward.

    You built the bridge with shoulder an bipod well in the first video. However you shuffled around after quite a bit. Might look to rebuild it in the further if you find yourself shuffling around after building bridge.
    Take this for what it is worth... I am not a great shooter, struggling like you. But, I have worked on perfecting how I practiced and honed what skill I actually want to build.

    I find building and breaking position and doing single shots on a dot drill is far more helpful than anything else. That is the skill of NPA, break it down and do it over and over. I will focus on one aspect till it gets natural and habit.

    In fact, I just started going on a hike and practicing field hunting shots. Lots of build break and fewer shots. I improved doing that over range time, with fewer shots.

    Like, the first step of building a position. Point your rifle at the target and then put your body behind it so I don't have to fiddle. I have developed indexes and ways for me to approach the rifle. Doing this well only helps later steps of NPA.

    Shifting around between shots in a group to work into it isn't helpful to me. I decided to practice NPA one shot at a time. Perfect practice. If I am shifting, then I am practicing imperfection on the first shot.

    Groups are garbage for most practical precision practice, they don't measure the right thing, IMO. Just shoot multiple dots.

    I will be a rifleman that can put the first shot where I want it and be prepared to take a follow up shot immediately after seeing the necessary correction.

    My practice is designed for that. And, one shot per dot will absolutely show me.

    Build and break, shoot one (or two for "follow up" practice) . Analyze what I did right and wrong. Repeat, build and break. Do it at home dryfiring too. Dryfire more at the beginning of the range work. Get deep into the mental flow.

    Shooting a "group" isn't as valuable skill to me. It isn't natural at all, for my hunting purposes. I want perfect marksmanship/execution on the first shot, and preparation for a follow up shot if I call wind wrong.

    If you want to check your groups, just use 10 small dots and after 10 shots you will know how well you really shoot.

    My two cents. Seeing your dedication makes me feel like a slacker. Keep it up man, I admire the work.
     

    hereinaz

    I have no idea why I get these new labels...
    Hessian
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  • Mar 7, 2018
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    As for the vertical stringing, inconsistent rear controls can cause that. Solid rear bag work and better rifle body connection. You seem to be fiddling with the rifle body connection as pointed out above.

    A related factor is the amount of cheek pressure it looks like you might be exerting on it.

    Butt control is important when the recoil impulse starts. Inconsistent pressure up from the bag or down from you cheek will get exoloited by the recoil energy.
     
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    Gustav7

    Son of a Gun...
    Hessian
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  • Jul 18, 2019
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    Ohio (OH)
    Take this for what it is worth... I am not a great shooter, struggling like you. But, I have worked on perfecting how I practiced and honed what skill I actually want to build.

    I find building and breaking position and doing single shots on a dot drill is far more helpful than anything else. That is the skill of NPA, break it down and do it over and over. I will focus on one aspect till it gets natural and habit.

    In fact, I just started going on a hike and practicing field hunting shots. Lots of build break and fewer shots. I improved doing that over range time, with fewer shots.

    Like, the first step of building a position. Point your rifle at the target and then put your body behind it so I don't have to fiddle. I have developed indexes and ways for me to approach the rifle. Doing this well only helps later steps of NPA.

    Shifting around between shots in a group to work into it isn't helpful to me. I decided to practice NPA one shot at a time. Perfect practice. If I am shifting, then I am practicing imperfection on the first shot.

    Groups are garbage for most practical precision practice, they don't measure the right thing, IMO. Just shoot multiple dots.

    I will be a rifleman that can put the first shot where I want it and be prepared to take a follow up shot immediately after seeing the necessary correction.

    My practice is designed for that. And, one shot per dot will absolutely show me.

    Build and break, shoot one (or two for "follow up" practice) . Analyze what I did right and wrong. Repeat, build and break. Do it at home dryfiring too. Dryfire more at the beginning of the range work. Get deep into the mental flow.

    Shooting a "group" isn't as valuable skill to me. It isn't natural at all, for my hunting purposes. I want perfect marksmanship/execution on the first shot, and preparation for a follow up shot if I call wind wrong.

    If you want to check your groups, just use 10 small dots and after 10 shots you will know how well you really shoot.

    My two cents. Seeing your dedication makes me feel like a slacker. Keep it up man, I admire the work.
    Appreciate the input, and I understand what you're saying with the group shooting. I didn't want to make the post super long from the start, but what I posted above is only a portion of my range practice. I usually shoot 2-4 groups to confirm zero, confirm consistency, and work on slow methodical fundamentals. I then do either dot drills or 5 shot groups where I will break/build my position for every shot, or build position and use my phone timer to put pressure on the speed with which I do shots. I may also switch positions and shoot prone then modified standing prone on the bench, etc. I sometimes go to the 300yd range and work on positional shooting on a 2moa steel target, etc.

    I'm in the middle of building another load with RL26 as well, so I was doing some other stuff with the rifle this day as well. Speaking of RL26, I think I found a little spot around 2830fps with the 147's, no pressure as of now. Will be retesting/confirming that when I go back.

    Heres my fast fire group, and one of my dot drills. Both 5 shots, with a par time of 30-45s which includes getting into position, loading, and firing all 5 shots.
     

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    hereinaz

    I have no idea why I get these new labels...
    Hessian
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  • Mar 7, 2018
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    Appreciate the input, and I understand what you're saying with the group shooting. I didn't want to make the post super long from the start, but what I posted above is only a portion of my range practice. I usually shoot 2-4 groups to confirm zero, confirm consistency, and work on slow methodical fundamentals. I then do either dot drills or 5 shot groups where I will break/build my position for every shot, or build position and use my phone timer to put pressure on the speed with which I do shots. I may also switch positions and shoot prone then modified standing prone on the bench, etc. I sometimes go to the 300yd range and work on positional shooting on a 2moa steel target, etc.

    I'm in the middle of building another load with RL26 as well, so I was doing some other stuff with the rifle this day as well. Speaking of RL26, I think I found a little spot around 2830fps with the 147's, no pressure as of now. Will be retesting/confirming that when I go back.

    Heres my fast fire group, and one of my dot drills. Both 5 shots, with a par time of 30-45s which includes getting into position, loading, and firing all 5 shots.
    Awesome, that's dedication. I am in the same sort of boat, doing good but the refinement takes a higher level.

    A fundamentals class is on my list... I know it will help, but so many priorities in life, lol.
     
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    Gustav7

    Son of a Gun...
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  • Jul 18, 2019
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    Ohio (OH)
    I think you're on the right track. I agree that a lot of correct reps are needed to get NPA and position building right.

    I liken creating the prone position to drawing a handgun. You need a lot of good reps to go from a soup sandwich to something effective that you do subconsciously.
    That makes a lot of sense. Watching a newer pistol shooter draw is probably similar to watching me build a position lol.

    Side note... have you ever taken any of the precision rifle classes out at Thunder Valley? Was looking into one of the one day classes.
     

    308pirate

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  • Apr 25, 2017
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    have you ever taken any of the precision rifle classes out at Thunder Valley? Was looking into one of the one day classes.
    No, but the thought has crossed my mind. I'd be game if I can get on with 2 - 3 other guys to spread the expense.
     

    A&8's

    Gunny Sergeant
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    Mar 20, 2019
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    In the side video, with the two groups:

    Is your parallax adjusted spot on? Reason I ask is, you pulled your face off the gun twice, which could account for 2 different placements of your groups. Also, keep in mind parallax is directly affected by magnification. So, backing your power off gives you a little more leeway if your parallax isn't exact.

    Also, I just reread your OP. You say you " I try to use the rear bag as little as possible and I use my support hand to try and control and hold the rear of the buttstock. I use the rear bag to steady my support hand..."

    IMO, this could account for vertical, as the rifle recoils, it will slide down, causing your muzzle to rise. Like your "beating the bullet out of the barrel." Your rifle should sit on the rear bag and your support hand should be pinching the stock with "pinchers" and graspers should be holding onto the bag.
     
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    Gustav7

    Son of a Gun...
    Hessian
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  • Jul 18, 2019
    1,146
    625
    Ohio (OH)
    In the side video, with the two groups:

    Is your parallax adjusted spot on? Reason I ask is, you pulled your face off the gun twice, which could account for 2 different placements of your groups. Also, keep in mind parallax is directly affected by magnification. So, backing your power off gives you a little more leeway if your parallax isn't exact.

    Also, I just reread your OP. You say you " I try to use the rear bag as little as possible and I use my support hand to try and control and hold the rear of the buttstock. I use the rear bag to steady my support hand..."

    IMO, this could account for vertical, as the rifle recoils, it will slide down, causing your muzzle to rise. Like your "beating the bullet out of the barrel." Your rifle should sit on the rear bag and your support hand should be pinching the stock with "pinchers" and graspers should be holding onto the bag.
    Paralax was checked and good to go.
    You’re Probably right with the rear bag thing. It’s not the best bag for being used like it is, and I’ve almost gotten the TabGear rear squeeze bag for that reason. I also need to just play around with it more and find something more comfortable and consistent
     
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