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Coyote AR

T

treillw

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Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 3, 2017
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What caliber would you go with for a Coyote AR to use out west? Wide open - can shoot as far as you can see. Windy. Probably want to stick to the AR15 platform and avoid the heavy AR10. Would also like to be able to slap a 5.56 upper on it for defense.

6.5 Grendel has been on my radar for some years. 224 valk and 22 creedmoor are interesting as well.

Can a quality built AR have accuracy on par with a bolt gun?

What are some manufacturers you would suggest? Don't want to spend $3k, but would consider some more boutique manufacturers.

If I'm investing a good bit of money into the rifle, it might be nice to take it on a deer or antelope hunt, but I have plenty of guns that can fill that role as well if the caliber is not ideal.

Thanks!
 
I run a .243 in a 16” Wilson ranger barrel in a lr308 platform. Just went to it this year. It seems to be everything I have hoped and dreamed it would be. Shot 223 bolt and AR before.

EDIT: I see you said AR15 platform. Sorry.
 
Dtech 243 wssm upper with a shilen select match barrel. Will shoot sierra 95gr MK and TMK bullets out to 1000 yds despite having been loaded to mag length. You can shoot heavier bullets but probably will have to single load. Brass availability is pretty good now due to Hornady entering the market.
www.dtechuppers.com

Dtech Custom AR-15 WSSM Upper Recievers

Dtechs line of AR-15 WSSM Upper recievers .243 WSSM, .25 WSSM, .358 WSSM, .300 OSSM
www.dtechuppers.com
Edited to add:
A nosler 55gr .243 bullet launched at 4198fps shoots pretty flat for near/mid range shots, if that's your thing. 1000yd capability with 95gr bullets certainly satisfies the "can shoot as far as you can see" constraint and bucks the wind pretty well too.

Nosler Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.
load-data.nosler.com load-data.nosler.com
 
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Just my situation, yours might be different.

I find a plain Jane AR15, chambered in 5.56 works just fine for me.

I live in AZ and like yourself can send it as far as I possibly want. But the truth is, that’s not necessarily the best idea. I’m not into injuring animals or showing off how far I can shoot while rolling dogs. Maybe it’s my upbringing or my pure hatred of coyotes. I want to dispatch them quickly and efficiently. For me, a coyote gun is also a truck gun. I don’t want to fret about the finish of a tier 1 rifle. I want a robust firearm that can live in the truck, survive forest service roads and not let me down.

The 223 caliber round has put fur down for me time and time again. It’s not fancy, it’s not cool but it’s plentiful, it’s accurate and it’s good enough for what I’m doing.

But if you are looking for a reason to step into a cool new cartridge, go for it. Guns are fun.
 
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Long range coyote hunting isn’t easy because they usually don’t stay still long. I’d try to get something that shoots as flat as possible to 300-400 yards and let them come in. This is one place where a 22 Nosler actually does pretty well. Personally though I’d just run straight 223/556 and let them come inside 300 yards.
 
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I'm not the foremost authority on killing coyotes, but I do kill a few every month.

The .223/5.56 has been all I've needed. I too don't want to injure one as much as I want them dead, and I've found that it doesn't take amazing fieldcraft skills to get within 300 yards.

If unpredictable wind is a factor, then an AR variant like the 22 Nosler, 22 Grendel, or a dozen others may be a better option...however I just think that an 18" .223 Wylde is the bees knees for overall versatility. I run around the ranch frequently with an 18" FN slung in front of me if im on the Ranger, or across my back if im on the 4-wheeler. (I also do this with a 16" DD and will admit that it us just a but easier).

If you are serious about deer or antelope, then probably a 6.5 Grendel. However a quality .223/5.56 upper in a reasonable length may prevent you form having to purchase a second upper.
 
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5.56 loaded with 69 or 77 grain TMK’s are your friend. If I were looking for a Tier 1 factory gun I’d look for a KAC LPR or a LMT MRP with a stainless barrel.
 
mensajd said:
Dtech 243 wssm upper with a shilen select match barrel. Will shoot sierra 95gr MK and TMK bullets out to 1000 yds despite having been loaded to mag length. You can shoot heavier bullets but probably will have to single load. Brass availability is pretty good now due to Hornady entering the market.
www.dtechuppers.com

Dtech Custom AR-15 WSSM Upper Recievers

Dtechs line of AR-15 WSSM Upper recievers .243 WSSM, .25 WSSM, .358 WSSM, .300 OSSM
www.dtechuppers.com
Edited to add:
A nosler 55gr .243 bullet launched at 4198fps shoots pretty flat for near/mid range shots, if that's your thing. 1000yd capability with 95gr bullets certainly satisfies the "can shoot as far as you can see" constraint and bucks the wind pretty well too.

Nosler Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.
load-data.nosler.com load-data.nosler.com
Click to expand...

Pretty cool.

What lower would you put it on?
 
My vote is 223/556. 6x45 if you want to add deer to the mix. Easy and gobs of barrel life.
 
6x6.8 or 6x45. Don’t get a 6.8 wildcat with shoulders set back for big bullets. Run a 55-70 gr with emphasis on speed. Less you have to think about distances the best when you have an animal making quick decisions. The 6x45 is my favorite. You get a speed bump over 223 and runners are all but gone with marginal shots. Plus very fur friendly and easy to load for. I get almost 3000fps with 70gr 18” 6x45. I run 55 and 58s out of 6x6.8 20” going 3500.

223 is for the birds or should I sayfor rats. 223 can work well with a 60 grain but for some reason a 55 is always dog shit with runnoffs in a 16” barrel

I spend a lot of my life killing predators. I’m by no means a master and sometimes I’m full of shit just depends on the day
 
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Dayandnight said:
223 is for the birds or should I sayfor rats. 223 can work well with a 60 grain but for some reason a 55 is always dog shit with runnoffs in a 16” barrel

I spend a lot of my life killing predators. I’m by no means a master and sometimes I’m full of shit just depends on the day
Click to expand...

Never had a problem w 55g v max. Even 40g v max.

Not sure what you are doing over there.
 
Not just me. You can’t tell me that is a flawless design. At 16” speeds it’s lackluster. I can’t make a perfect shot every time. Even then I’ve seen shots that appear perfect often enough that falls short of being effective. I’m not doing anything differently and it’s not just me. This is a age long debate. Some people won’t let you bad mouth their 55s. The difference in my mind is velocity. A 20” 223 performs way different on coyotes than a 16” if you avg it up. Heck I even went with a pro staffer from a call company and he couldn’t stop the spinners. He is also the last guy to say they don’t perform. Keep them have fun and if they are perfect to you that’s what matters.
 
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Agreed. In my experience, a 223 will 'get it done', but you'll have more run-offs on average.
Whereas with a 243 Win, 6.5 Creed, or similar, it almost doesn't matter where you hit them, they go down.
I find a nice compromise is running one of the fatter AR-15 platform cartridges, like a Grendel variant. The 6mm v-maxes out of a 20"+ barrel are a force to be reckoned with.
 
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.350 Legend out to about 300yrds is ultra effective on small game!
 
Not sure lobbing indirect fire at coyotes is the most effective thing.

Also bullet construction for most. 355 diameter rounds does not make them as effective on small targets.

Edited to add that my 6.8 with 120gr SST is ultra effective on head-on shots on coyotes, leaving their insides on the outside quite frequently...However, broadside boiler room shots with the same combo are not very effective at all. Quite often a boiler room shot will have the coyote run off in excess of 100 yards with nothing more than a .277 caliber hole through and through.

Bullet construction is very important.

YMMV.
 
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62 grain VARMAGEDDON have been super accurate and working great out of my 22 nosler, 20 inch barrel.
 
I really like a 204 Ruger in an ar. I have found it to be more effective than a 223 for me, near zero recoil, super flat shooting and instant follow up shots. The 224 V and 6x45 are also great choices, imho.
it may depend on where you are hunting as well. Here in the northwest, 35lbs is a very big coyote. If you have 50lb coyotes or wolves, I would definitely look at the 6x45 or 224 v
 
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35-40# is a big coyote anywhere. Northern yotes only look bigger because they have more fur. If you shoot a canine over 50#, it's probably not a coyote, at least not a purebred.
 
Standard 223 wylde /5.56, SPR configuration........................it;s what they are made to do with 69's or 77's.

MM
 
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I just got done building a 17 Remington ar for coyotes and lynx. Gonna go out later today and give it a try. I’m after pelts so I need a small hole and to make my shot count. I’ve found 30gr bullets and you can get a poly rifled barrel from Columbia river for a little more than 300$. There are lots of wildcat 17 and 20 options. If I was starting all over I think I would go with a 22 nosler or 22-6.8 and then neck down to 17.
 
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You can put many of the most effective distance/accuracy features into an AR-15 platform that many think of first in the AR-10. A longer, stiffer barrel can go a long way toward dealing with AR-10 sized issues.

I Like the Grendel for the AR-15 build. My 20" and 24" heavy fluted 6.5 Grendel AR-15's are shaping up rather nicely. Initial concerns turned out to be just basic teething pains in a new build.

One of, if not the most efficient package for delivering energy out of the AR-15; the 6.5 Grendel superceded my original intent to build a 260 AR-10. No; it's not the 260, but along the line somewhere, I also aged beyond my need or desire to be that 1000yd shooter. I would be confident that my 24" would be capable of doing effective energy delivery out to beyond 600yd, and maybe well beyond as long as the goal did not require absolute obliteration.

Like some above, I live in AZ, and those anticipated long vistas didn't automatically turn into long range shooting venues. The concerns voiced by those individuals are real and of concern to myself as well. Bullets do not back up and obediently return when called. Fobbed shots are a matter of some serious responsibility, and as distance mounts, both the probability and consequences of those shots eventually become unacceptable. I've served in combat and understand the differences inherent in free fire zones. I don't expect to ever have access to such again.

For the degree of capability and responsibility I must accept, the 6.5 Grendel fits a lot more comfortably than its bigger brethren.

I'm abruptly swinging over to the Speer Gold Dot bullet line as a versatile, accurate, and effective single solution for multiple purposes in the foreseeable future of my load development efforts with all of my active firearms.

Next up on my session of load development testing is a 120gr Gold Dot 6.5 Grendel load in my 24" 6.5 Grendel AR

When one compares the trajectories of the 308/168 and 6.5G/120, they are close enough to allow employing a 308 BDC reticle very closely out to 400yd, and not that far off at 500yd. That may not seem so very far for a competitive shooter; but in terms of terminal performance, it's just about the limit of distance where I'd consider shooting.

Final question...; all of my rifles are at least acceptably accurate. My most accurate are my AR's.

None of my AR's cost much more than $1000. Most run under $600, including my PA-10 308, before minor upgrades.

The expensive ones are a pair of Stag Model 6 Super Varminter 5.56. They have 24" Stainless heavy varmint barrels, and there is a pair of them because we all shoot in our family, and the Model 6 is very nice for informal competitions. One once shot 600yd F T/R in a National Match, and it was a good choice for the task.

Greg
 
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6mm Fat Rat. Great round for coyotes, hogs, foxes, etc. Flat shooting as some of my shots at night are unknown distances (thermal). 350 yards or less, cross hair on top of their back gets a hit in the vitals. Makes it look easy.
 
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Anybody besides Dtech make 243 WSSM uppers? Haven't been able to get calls through to builders with the holiday.

I did a little comparing and the 243 WSSM seems to be a pretty high horsepower cartridge in the AR platform. Is there any round out there that is hotter?
 
diggler1833 said:
I'm not the foremost authority on killing coyotes, but I do kill a few every month.

The .223/5.56 has been all I've needed. I too don't want to injure one as much as I want them dead, and I've found that it doesn't take amazing fieldcraft skills to get within 300 yards.

If unpredictable wind is a factor, then an AR variant like the 22 Nosler, 22 Grendel, or a dozen others may be a better option...however I just think that an 18" .223 Wylde is the bees knees for overall versatility. I run around the ranch frequently with an 18" FN slung in front of me if im on the Ranger, or across my back if im on the 4-wheeler. (I also do this with a 16" DD and will admit that it us just a but easier).

If you are serious about deer or antelope, then probably a 6.5 Grendel. However a quality .223/5.56 upper in a reasonable length may prevent you form having to purchase a second upper.
Click to expand...

This, 223 will do just fine.

IMO- Bolt action 22-250. You want both, 1-2 power on the low end for the AR. Big FOV.
 
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mensajd said:
Dtech 243 wssm upper with a shilen select match barrel. Will shoot sierra 95gr MK and TMK bullets out to 1000 yds despite having been loaded to mag length. You can shoot heavier bullets but probably will have to single load. Brass availability is pretty good now due to Hornady entering the market.
www.dtechuppers.com

Dtech Custom AR-15 WSSM Upper Recievers

Dtechs line of AR-15 WSSM Upper recievers .243 WSSM, .25 WSSM, .358 WSSM, .300 OSSM
www.dtechuppers.com
Edited to add:
A nosler 55gr .243 bullet launched at 4198fps shoots pretty flat for near/mid range shots, if that's your thing. 1000yd capability with 95gr bullets certainly satisfies the "can shoot as far as you can see" constraint and bucks the wind pretty well too.

Nosler Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.
load-data.nosler.com load-data.nosler.com
Click to expand...


I did a little more research and heard that the 243 WSSM can have feeding problems because the case is so fat. Also heard that the bolt is too large in diameter for an AR15.

Is the 243 wssm a proprietary cartridge that is only allowed to be manufactured by certain people?
 
I spank a lot of yotes. I have found my sweet spot is a 6mm creed. I am working a build list to build an AR (I have an RPR that like but want a semiauto). I have tried 22-250, 223, 224val, 243, and the list goes on. Here is what I would tell you to think about
1) FLAT shooting. When you see a yote it is NEVER by "that tree you know is 200yrds" its always somewhere new and you wont have time to figure out range. Coyotes never stop moving. (until dirt nap time)
2) can u attach it to a tripod? You dont have a tripod? YOU WILL!
3) is the barrel threaded? You dont hunt suppressed? (you will)
4) How much walking do you do? I walk 3-5miles a night so a few pounds off in gear weight is a big deal for me. if you are tired you are less accurate
5) will it knock down or blow through? Speed kills but only if you expend some energy
6) can you get materials for the gun (brass, bullets, etc..) . Keep in mind if you are hunting you will lose brass ALL THE TIME....
7) recoil less recoil = more accurate.

all these factors have led me to the 6creed....but I hope you find what you like.
 
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treillw said:
I did a little more research and heard that the 243 WSSM can have feeding problems because the case is so fat. Also heard that the bolt is too large in diameter for an AR15.

Is the 243 wssm a proprietary cartridge that is only allowed to be manufactured by certain people?
Click to expand...
It used to be alot more common a decade ago when a ton of the other AR15 ready variants werent on the table, and if you wanted short action 6mm performance in a smaller package. Nowadays I dont think there is a factory offering available anymore and I've only ever found brass online.
 
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Tex_ponch said:
I spank a lot of yotes. I have found my sweet spot is a 6mm creed. I am working a build list to build an AR (I have an RPR that like but want a semiauto). I have tried 22-250, 223, 224val, 243, and the list goes on. Here is what I would tell you to think about
1) FLAT shooting. When you see a yote it is NEVER by "that tree you know is 200yrds" its always somewhere new and you wont have time to figure out range. Coyotes never stop moving. (until dirt nap time)
2) can u attach it to a tripod? You dont have a tripod? YOU WILL!
3) is the barrel threaded? You dont hunt suppressed? (you will)
4) How much walking do you do? I walk 3-5miles a night so a few pounds off in gear weight is a big deal for me. if you are tired you are less accurate
5) will it knock down or blow through? Speed kills but only if you expend some energy
6) can you get materials for the gun (brass, bullets, etc..) . Keep in mind if you are hunting you will lose brass ALL THE TIME....
7) recoil less recoil = more accurate.

all these factors have led me to the 6creed....but I hope you find what you like.
Click to expand...

Totally agree! Here in AZ, I love my RPR 6mm CM on coyotes- it's a great combination of speed and terminal performance. 87 gr. V-Max or 108 gr. ELD-M bullets create a smackdown like Thor's hammer. I've never had one get away from me using this gun. I also use a standard AR-15 (a Core 15 Key-Mod Scout w/16" barrel in 1:7 twist) for closer work and it has been fantastic with 55 gr. V-Max. YMMV. Regardless, good luck in your choice.
 
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Dtech uses a larger diameter bolt and barrel extension, as well as a beefier upper receiver. Feeding is fine.

Pro: 6mm Creedmoor ballistics in a small frame AR. Con: modified mags with limited capacity (single stack). Dtech is a quality boutique builder who has put together thousands(!) of these things.

Tip: get the brass before or concurrent with ordering an upper. Availability of Hornady brass is good right now but I always worry about brass availability for orphaned cartridges.

See also:
www.thetruthaboutguns.com

The Truth About .243 WSSM (Winchester Super Short Magnum) - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ JJ Sutton, C.P.S., C.M.A.S. writes [via ammoland.com] To begin with, there are statements in this article that are purely my own, and my opinions are obvious and blatant. Nonetheless, I really hope there are some good tidbits in here that grab people’s interest. As...
www.thetruthaboutguns.com
 
Last edited:
mensajd said:
Dtech uses a larger diameter bolt and barrel extension, as well as a beefier upper receiver. Feeding is fine.

Pro: 6mm Creedmoor ballistics in a small frame AR. Con: modified mags with limited capacity (single stack). Dtech is a quality boutique builder who has put together thousands(!) of these things.

Tip: get the brass before or concurrent with ordering an upper. Availability of Hornady brass is good right now but I always worry about brass availability for orphaned cartridges.

See also:
www.thetruthaboutguns.com

The Truth About .243 WSSM (Winchester Super Short Magnum) - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ JJ Sutton, C.P.S., C.M.A.S. writes [via ammoland.com] To begin with, there are statements in this article that are purely my own, and my opinions are obvious and blatant. Nonetheless, I really hope there are some good tidbits in here that grab people’s interest. As...
www.thetruthaboutguns.com
Click to expand...
I was contemplating one of the wssm cartridges long ago. Can someone educate me on this? What size head? Is it possible to scrounge parts and build yourself? Or do you need proprietary bolt n barrel?
 
To my knowledge neither Olympic Arms nor Dtech sold the proprietary parts to do-it-yourselfers. Rim size is ~0.535”.
 
mensajd said:
Pro: 6mm Creedmoor ballistics in a small frame AR.
Click to expand...

So I guess I'm down to deciding between the 6.5 wssm and the 243 wssm. I've been reading random velocity numbers online and I'd like confirmation on what I think I've learned. Please let me know if anything I said below is wrong.

  • It sounds like both cartridges will out perform a 6.5 Grendel.
  • The 243 wssm is about 10% more powerful than a standard 243 win.
  • The the 6.5 wssm outperforms 6.5 creedmoor
  • The 243 wssm shoots flatter but has more wind drift than a 6.5 wssm
Couple of additional questions:
  • What are the lightest and heaviest bullets you can shoot out of the 6.5 wssm considering barrel twist?

Getting closer. Thanks!
 
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I think your wind drift assumption is wrong. An AR coyote rifle needs to operate with mag length loads or else you might as well build a single shot 6br bolt action rifle. Max mag length load in an AR15 is ~2.30” (unless you do really kludgy things like cutting up the leading edge of the mag). So if you use the highest BC 6.5 bullets, they’ll intrude so much into your cartridge that you won’t be able to meet your velocity assumptions. If you use lighter 6.5 bullets to meet the mag length constraint, then the BC and hence wind drift will suffer. The mag length constraint dominates this analysis because adequate barrel twist options are readily available in any of your cartridge candidates. If you are willing to move to an AR10 platform, then a 6 creed rocks.
 
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mensajd said:
I think your wind drift assumption is wrong. An AR coyote rifle needs to operate with mag length loads or else you might as well build a single shot 6br bolt action rifle. Max mag length load in an AR15 is ~2.30” (unless you do really kludgy things like cutting up the leading edge of the mag). So if you use the highest BC 6.5 bullets, they’ll intrude so much into your cartridge that you won’t be able to meet your velocity assumptions. If you use lighter 6.5 bullets to meet the mag length constraint, then the BC and hence wind drift will suffer. The mag length constraint dominates this analysis because adequate barrel twist options are readily available in any of your cartridge candidates. If you are willing to move to an AR10 platform, then a 6 creed rocks.
Click to expand...

So you would lean more towards the 243 wssm?
 
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I’ve been in the same boat lately ... too many runners with the 223, I’ve decided to do a 12.5” 6.5 Grendel for suppressed use. I like all the wildcats but for an AR I’d rather not deal with any brass prep while reloading or even trying to chase down spent brass. 6.5 Grendel seemed like the easy button for me and brass is cheap enough that if I wanted to load some for it they would be consumables.
 
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treillw said:
So you would lean more towards the 243 wssm?
Click to expand...
I purchased two dtech uppers, a 20 practical and a 243 wssm so you can obviously infer my preferences. Suggest you think through what your requirements and constraints are and give Mike at dtech a call. He’s quite knowledgeable about the wssm calibers and their limitations in an AR. BTW I have no relationship with dtech except for being a happy customer.
 
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Same boat here. Almost done my 90 gr Varmageddon load development for my Grendel, then want to build a 22 Grendel and compare performance out to 600 yards. There's always 22 Creedmoor in an AR10 but don't want go down that road unless the 22 Grendel disappoints.
 
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mensajd said:
I purchased two dtech uppers, a 20 practical and a 243 wssm so you can obviously infer my preferences. Suggest you think through what your requirements and constraints are and give Mike at dtech a call. He’s quite knowledgeable about the wssm calibers and their limitations in an AR. BTW I have no relationship with dtech except for being a happy customer.
Click to expand...
How are you liking that 20 practical? I have a 20 practical barrel that I’ve yet to put on a lower as I am using my 17 rem now. What necking dies do you have?
 
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