I've always held the AR15 like the Magpul guys. Using the thumb on top of the quadrail. I just got back from a conference and an instructor was showing how a lot of special forces are holding it with a thumb under and their four fingers on top of the quadrail right in from of the reciever. Anybody out their doing this?
Advanced Marksmanship CQB forend hand
- Thread starter Outlaw45
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Re: CQB forend hand
The guy on the right isn't actually doing that..look at where his fist is. He's got a laser designator on his top rail, that's what you might be confusing for his hand. And just be wary of the all encompassing "special forces" claims that people make
The guy on the right isn't actually doing that..look at where his fist is. He's got a laser designator on his top rail, that's what you might be confusing for his hand. And just be wary of the all encompassing "special forces" claims that people make
Re: CQB forend hand
That's interesting. With a bent elbow it is a more natural hand position (in that the wrist isn't rotated). Feels a bit less stable though because the thumb is more of a pivot than the palm. Whatever works!
That's interesting. With a bent elbow it is a more natural hand position (in that the wrist isn't rotated). Feels a bit less stable though because the thumb is more of a pivot than the palm. Whatever works!
Re: CQB forend hand
I have seen people use this technique before, and have used it myself but only when I'm shooting support side. I've never seen someone run it full time though.
I have seen people use this technique before, and have used it myself but only when I'm shooting support side. I've never seen someone run it full time though.
Re: CQB forend hand
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outlaw45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've always held the AR15 like the Magpul guys. Using the thumb on top of the quadrail. I just got back from a conference and an instructor was showing how a lot of special forces are holding it with a thumb under and their four fingers on top of the quadrail right in from of the reciever. Anybody out their doing this?</div></div>
Have you tried it yet then? How did you like it if so? It's something I'll have to remember to mess with when I get home, see how it works
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outlaw45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've always held the AR15 like the Magpul guys. Using the thumb on top of the quadrail. I just got back from a conference and an instructor was showing how a lot of special forces are holding it with a thumb under and their four fingers on top of the quadrail right in from of the reciever. Anybody out their doing this?</div></div>
Have you tried it yet then? How did you like it if so? It's something I'll have to remember to mess with when I get home, see how it works
Re: CQB forend hand
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mtn Troll</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen people use this technique before, and have used it myself but only when I'm shooting support side. </div></div>
This is how I use and teach it. An asymmetrical support side grip allows for more rapid and fluid transition to and from support side.
I use this "Beer can Grip," as I call it, for support side shooting, and I utilize the "thumb rail" instead of "thumb over" for firing side, but I teach both of the latter and let my students decide, they both have pros and cons.
As far as this grip goes (using it for support side), it has no real effect on accuracy, it does seem to make target transitions slightly more sluggish (based on observations, timed drills, and results on paper). I believe this is a result of the general rule: Control of the weapon (leverage to drive the weapon and weapon retention) decreases the closer your hands are together.
Like most new techniques, takes some serious practice to feel natural.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mtn Troll</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen people use this technique before, and have used it myself but only when I'm shooting support side. </div></div>
This is how I use and teach it. An asymmetrical support side grip allows for more rapid and fluid transition to and from support side.
I use this "Beer can Grip," as I call it, for support side shooting, and I utilize the "thumb rail" instead of "thumb over" for firing side, but I teach both of the latter and let my students decide, they both have pros and cons.
As far as this grip goes (using it for support side), it has no real effect on accuracy, it does seem to make target transitions slightly more sluggish (based on observations, timed drills, and results on paper). I believe this is a result of the general rule: Control of the weapon (leverage to drive the weapon and weapon retention) decreases the closer your hands are together.
Like most new techniques, takes some serious practice to feel natural.
Re: CQB forend hand
Who was the instructor?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outlaw45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've always held the AR15 like the Magpul guys. Using the thumb on top of the quadrail. I just got back from a conference and an <span style="font-weight: bold">instructor</span> was showing how a lot of special forces are holding it with a thumb under and their four fingers on top of the quadrail right in from of the reciever. Anybody out their doing this? </div></div>
Who was the instructor?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outlaw45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've always held the AR15 like the Magpul guys. Using the thumb on top of the quadrail. I just got back from a conference and an <span style="font-weight: bold">instructor</span> was showing how a lot of special forces are holding it with a thumb under and their four fingers on top of the quadrail right in from of the reciever. Anybody out their doing this? </div></div>
Re: CQB forend hand
Why do you want to do this? If it's because some instructor, in IL, told you SF guys are doing it you should buy some ocean front property I have in AZ. It's beach front and you can taste the salt.
I would argue that's some clever marketing.
I mention in IL, because there are no SF groups in IL. Nothing really close to IL, maybe some guard dudes running around. Sounds like complete BS to me. I think anything will feel natural and make you shoot better when you have to practice it for thousands of repetitions. I think I would be pretty good at anything if I practiced it thousands of times.
The only time I have used this type of grip on the fore end was against a barrier. Fingers and thumb pushed forward into obstacle used for support. Use it on the strong and weak side.
Sounds like a gimmick. Anytime somebody leans on the accomplishments of others, I think you should question their intentions.
Why do you want to do this? If it's because some instructor, in IL, told you SF guys are doing it you should buy some ocean front property I have in AZ. It's beach front and you can taste the salt.
I would argue that's some clever marketing.
I mention in IL, because there are no SF groups in IL. Nothing really close to IL, maybe some guard dudes running around. Sounds like complete BS to me. I think anything will feel natural and make you shoot better when you have to practice it for thousands of repetitions. I think I would be pretty good at anything if I practiced it thousands of times.
The only time I have used this type of grip on the fore end was against a barrier. Fingers and thumb pushed forward into obstacle used for support. Use it on the strong and weak side.
Sounds like a gimmick. Anytime somebody leans on the accomplishments of others, I think you should question their intentions.
Re: CQB forend hand
Well, Henk Iverson was an instructor that gave a lecture in Il. where I was at. I don't know where he lives or trains. I do know he's from South Africa and has killed people more ways than anyone knows. He speaks from experience and has a no-bullshit way of doing things. He immigrated to the States and now trains our best.
Well, Henk Iverson was an instructor that gave a lecture in Il. where I was at. I don't know where he lives or trains. I do know he's from South Africa and has killed people more ways than anyone knows. He speaks from experience and has a no-bullshit way of doing things. He immigrated to the States and now trains our best.
Re: CQB forend hand
I'm in agreement with pshell on this. I'm unaware of anyone using this technique. As someone stated above, I've done this when pushing the weapon up against a wall/barricade to steady the weapon but thats it.
Whats even more disconcerting is that while you were taught this, the instructor(s) failed to impart to you the "why" of doing this, if there is even one, which I am highly doubtful. As such, I throw up the BS flag on this one.
I'm in agreement with pshell on this. I'm unaware of anyone using this technique. As someone stated above, I've done this when pushing the weapon up against a wall/barricade to steady the weapon but thats it.
Whats even more disconcerting is that while you were taught this, the instructor(s) failed to impart to you the "why" of doing this, if there is even one, which I am highly doubtful. As such, I throw up the BS flag on this one.
Re: CQB forend hand
I am all in favor of trying new techniques when in a training environment and determining for myself if the juice is worth squeeze. But, the instructor better tell me why the new technique is better than what I have been doing and what advantage I get out of it. New just to be new doesn't do it for me. Neither does "the SF guys are doing it". They have a different set of requirements than the rest of us. And I also agree that labeling a technique with "SF" is a great selling point to some crappy stuff.
Try it and see. It might work for you or not.
Guns
I am all in favor of trying new techniques when in a training environment and determining for myself if the juice is worth squeeze. But, the instructor better tell me why the new technique is better than what I have been doing and what advantage I get out of it. New just to be new doesn't do it for me. Neither does "the SF guys are doing it". They have a different set of requirements than the rest of us. And I also agree that labeling a technique with "SF" is a great selling point to some crappy stuff.
Try it and see. It might work for you or not.
Guns
Re: CQB forend hand
Ok he didn't teach me this technique. He was simply referring to photos showing "SF's" he was training and someone asked about how they were holding the gun. He said they have found what works best and for them having their support hand closer to the reciever was better. His main point was that the sport shooting style of having your support hand all the way out at the end like they do in 3 gun comps doesn't work in a gunfight.
He was only one speaker at a conference. He didn't instruct anyone.
Ok he didn't teach me this technique. He was simply referring to photos showing "SF's" he was training and someone asked about how they were holding the gun. He said they have found what works best and for them having their support hand closer to the reciever was better. His main point was that the sport shooting style of having your support hand all the way out at the end like they do in 3 gun comps doesn't work in a gunfight.
He was only one speaker at a conference. He didn't instruct anyone.
Re: CQB forend hand
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outlaw45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok he didn't teach me this technique. He was simply referring to photos showing "SF's" he was training and someone asked about how they were holding the gun. He said they have found what works best and for them having their support hand closer to the reciever was better. His main point was that the sport shooting style of having your support hand all the way out at the end like they do in 3 gun comps doesn't work in a gunfight.
He was only one speaker at a conference. He didn't instruct anyone. </div></div>
Really? So by that logic if I show you this picture, it has to be so?
http://i49.tinypic.com/258cifq.jpg
[headsmack] so that hand forward on the rail doesn't work in a gunfight huh? Well before costa and all the others out there made this technique popular, who do you think they learned it from (because costa sure as shit hasn't been in a real gunfight)? Let me give you a hint, it was from the guys at Bragg, albeit the technique wasn't as goofy looking as costa and others have made it with the hand rotated so much that the ellbow points at the sky. [/headsmack]
If I had every thing issued to me that manufacturers/people have labeled with "as used by Special Forces" I would need a second garage to store all the stuff. My suggestion to you is to take this advice you were given with a grain of salt as it is highly questionable. My BS flag remains fully hoisted.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outlaw45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok he didn't teach me this technique. He was simply referring to photos showing "SF's" he was training and someone asked about how they were holding the gun. He said they have found what works best and for them having their support hand closer to the reciever was better. His main point was that the sport shooting style of having your support hand all the way out at the end like they do in 3 gun comps doesn't work in a gunfight.
He was only one speaker at a conference. He didn't instruct anyone. </div></div>
Really? So by that logic if I show you this picture, it has to be so?
http://i49.tinypic.com/258cifq.jpg[headsmack] so that hand forward on the rail doesn't work in a gunfight huh? Well before costa and all the others out there made this technique popular, who do you think they learned it from (because costa sure as shit hasn't been in a real gunfight)? Let me give you a hint, it was from the guys at Bragg, albeit the technique wasn't as goofy looking as costa and others have made it with the hand rotated so much that the ellbow points at the sky. [/headsmack]
If I had every thing issued to me that manufacturers/people have labeled with "as used by Special Forces" I would need a second garage to store all the stuff. My suggestion to you is to take this advice you were given with a grain of salt as it is highly questionable. My BS flag remains fully hoisted.
