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Gunsmithing Crowning Barrels.

Divey

Private
Minuteman
Aug 6, 2010
2
0
79
Sydney, Australia
Hi All, this is my first post here so please be gentle with me.

I am trying to find out what is the best possible way to crown a new barrel for accuracy. I have heard that 11° is the ultimate angle for a barrel crown, however, I can't find much information on the web to confirm this.

I do realise that the barrel must be dialed in using a four jaw chuck and dialed into the actual bore.

Is there anyone here that can assist me with information on this subject.
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

i doubt you will find any hard proof that one angle of crown is better than another.

me personally, i have been just breaking the edge of the rifling at 30*, then 90* and then a 45* deep recess. i doubt it is any better than anything else when it comes to accuracy but i really like the looks of it and it is deep enough that the crown is well protected.

chadsbarrel32.jpg


chadsbarrel4.jpg
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

As long as the crown is perpendicular to the bore, smooth and burr free one isn’t more accurate than another. Depending on the rifle's intended purpose though, one crown may be better than the others from a protection stand point.

Here's the one I use 90% of the time. .090" deep, 90 degree flat, 45 degree pull back, break the edges of the lands with a 60 degree chamfer and the OD @ 45 degrees.


168de88.jpg
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

I've had a few crowns redressed with very small 45 degree chamfer at the union of muzzle face and rifling, no deeper than the depth of the grooves, and it seems to have been both effective and durable. Certainly didn't hurt any. I think it makes the delicate ends of the rifling lands less vulnerable. Any gas cutting occurs at the bottoms of the exposed grooves, and I think that may be preferable.

It was done by a professional machinist using a stone Brownell's sells for the purpose, which works best with a custom made arbor, fitted to the bore.

Greg
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As long as the crown is perpendicular to the bore, smooth and burr free one isn’t more accurate than another. Depending on the rifle's intended purpose though, one crown may be better than the others from a protection stand point.</div></div>

+1....I'm a bit more of a traditionalist when it comes to my crown. 11* recess cut with the Skunkworks tool, leave the rifling sharp (never had/seen an issue by not doing a chamfer), OD of barrel is hand-dressed.

1hpatf.jpg
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Divey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi All, this is my first post here so please be gentle with me.

I am trying to find out what is the best possible way to crown a new barrel for accuracy. I have heard that 11° is the ultimate angle for a barrel crown, however, I can't find much information on the web to confirm this.

I do realise that the barrel must be dialed in using a four jaw chuck and dialed into the actual bore.

Is there anyone here that can assist me with information on this subject. </div></div>

Just for your information, there is also no-lathe precision muzzle crowning technology and tools, currently sold by Dave Manson.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/b23lfzpZrJ4"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/b23lfzpZrJ4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Divey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi All, this is my first post here so please be gentle with me.

I am trying to find out what is the best possible way to crown a new barrel for accuracy. I have heard that 11° is the ultimate angle for a barrel crown, however, I can't find much information on the web to confirm this.

I do realise that the barrel must be dialed in using a four jaw chuck and dialed into the actual bore.

Is there anyone here that can assist me with information on this subject. </div></div>


Sometime in the 1950's the US Army decided to sort this thing out. As the story was relayed to me they began literally with a saw cut, then worked up in 1* increments. This was done with a variety of barrel contours, calibers, bullets, etc.

It was determined from this that the 11* (or 79* depending on how you want to look at it) relief angle gave the best results.

I don't often look to bench guns for guidance as they are quite often apples/oranges to mainstream "working guns" however in this case I'll break my rule. All one has to do is go to a BR match and look at the wins and close seconds. You'll be hard pressed to find a 90* crown.

Take that for what its worth.

I always (no exception) single point machine my crowns to 11*. Working guns are recessed where's the target stuff is just a straight 11* from the OD down to the bore.


crowning.jpg


DSC_0031-6.jpg


DSC_0084-1.jpg


DSC_0086.jpg


DSC_0082.jpg


DSC_0087-1.jpg



Hope this helped and good luck.

C
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

Interesting, I wonder how the hand held tool shown in the video compares with the indicated lathe cut method? Looks like it might be concentric with the bore...
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Divey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi All, this is my first post here so please be gentle with me.</div></div>

You done good for a first post as far as the "be gentle with me" goes!

You had some very talented builders give some good explainations and photos to boot.

To all the posters, I also appreciate your information and the photos! They all are examples of very fine work.
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting, I wonder how the hand held tool shown in the video compares with the indicated lathe cut method? Looks like it might be concentric with the bore... </div></div>


As a beloved old friend and one hell of an ME said to me once, "How many four legged bar stools have you ever sat on that didn't rock on the floor?"

I'm plagiarizing his statement to make my point about using a piloted multiflute tool for anything. It's an almost certainty (like the sun coming up in the morning kind of certainty) that one flute is going to cut more than another. That being the case you now have a torsional side loading potential on the pilot. Most pilots are quite hard (50C scale ish). Especially when used with a drill press or cordless Dewalt. . .

Chambering reamers are sure to come up now, so I'll address it in advance. At least with a piloted chambering reamer one has a reasonable assurance (in capable hands) of it being tangent and concentric with the rifle barrel.

Again you'll be hard pressed to find any of the more accurate minded gun plumbers using piloted crown tooling.

The flip side to this is I'm sure the guns shoot just fine. Just preference and what a guy has the resources to buy and use.

Good luck.

C
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Just for your information, there is also no-lathe precision muzzle crowning technology and tools, currently sold by Dave Manson.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/b23lfzpZrJ4"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/b23lfzpZrJ4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

</div></div>

Have you or anyone ever use one of these. If so.. did it do anything to the accuracy of your rifle???

Looks fairly simple... but would hate to ruin a good barrel if it screwed the accuracy at all.
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
DSC_0087-1.jpg



</div></div>

This one looks like a breech.
smile.gif
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting, I wonder how the hand held tool shown in the video compares with the indicated lathe cut method? Looks like it might be concentric with the bore... </div></div>

I am on dialup so cannot download the video mentioned but will say that with tools like the one Brownell's sells you will play hell cutting a crown without chatter!!!! Bought a 11* over 10yrs ago for an emergency fix to a crown. Cuss that SOB everytime I ever used it. Didn't matter whether CM or stainless, hand, drill and even tried it using the lathe for power and the POS would still chatter. Like Chad said, multi cutting edges = issues and as he mentioned also, a reamer is a different animal compared to a piloted crowning tool.
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

This tool shown in a video produces NO chatter in principle because of the carbide (serrated) cutting blades design and some other things incorporated into design. Serrated cutting blades, which in combination form numerous active cutting edges, overlap each other, helping to produce good finish, and also, eliminate tendency of the cutting edges to "dig" into the metal.

It's been around for nearly 10 years, and anybody interested can search the net for references and additional info. It's been tested an all kinds of barrels, chrome lined, stainless, alloy steel, whatever.

In regard to concentrically - it uses expandable non-rotating precision pilots, which is a completely different arrangement in comparison to typical piloted cutter. Pilots are expandable up to 0.010", so one pilot, say, 5.5 mm, covers all existing 0.22 calibers, rimfire and centerfire, including 5.45 mm on the low end. As the result, concentricity of the crown formed by this tool is typically comparable to the crown machined on the lathe by the operator who knows what he is doing, and much better in all other cases.

The main difference is that it takes 5 to 7 minutes on average to do it, as opposed to much longer time needed for lathe setup. Also, no disassembly of the firearm is needed. Just do a search for "Dave Manson muzzle crowning tool".

Out of approximately 800 tool kits, both professional type and military rifle ones, sold by Dave so far, at least half was bought by professional gunsmiths, including some well known guys. They buy these tools because they can make nice crowning jobs in 5-7 minutes and get paid their typical $35-$50, which makes them $250+ per hour for crowning jobs. The other guys buy it cause they do not have lathe, do not need to know how to use it or do the correct setup, and they can still make high quality crowns by themselves. Rifles, pistols, revolvers, whatever. Also, Dave has a cutter setup for shotguns, including double barrel ones. I have quite a bit of lathe experience myself, but would not want to set up double barrel in a chuck..

I'm not selling this tool here, but I'm associated with Dave Manson, and just wanted to let you know a bit more. If you're interested, call Dave Manson Precision Reamers and mention my name - Boris, and he'll treat you particularly nice, although he treats every customer nice. If you plan to visit 2011 Shot Show, you can also see live demonstration of this tool. There is a 30% chance you'll want to buy it right on the spot - it's been my observation that every third of the individuals watching the demonstration bought it.
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i doubt you will find any hard proof that one angle of crown is better than another.

me personally, i have been just breaking the edge of the rifling at 30*, then 90* and then a 45* deep recess. i doubt it is any better than anything else when it comes to accuracy but i really like the looks of it and it is deep enough that the crown is well protected.

chadsbarrel32.jpg


chadsbarrel4.jpg
</div></div>


Where did You get the lathe spider with the degree indications etched in?
Not meaning to Hijack the thread, Just interested in one like it.
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PBRACEGUNS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Where did You get the lathe spider with the degree indications etched in?
Not meaning to Hijack the thread, Just interested in one like it. </div></div>

i made it.

spiderchuckengrave6.jpg
 
Re: Crowning Barrels.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PBRACEGUNS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Where did You get the lathe spider with the degree indications etched in?
Not meaning to Hijack the thread, Just interested in one like it. </div></div>

i made it.

spiderchuckengrave6.jpg
</div></div>

That's a slick setup. Does the spider on the tail end of the headstock have matching marks?
You must have or have access to some really nice machinery!