Custom Action (Bighorn Origin) or Tikka T3x

[kentuckyMarksman]

I've decided I'd like a bolt action 223. Seems like it would be a lot of fun. I don't have any experience with custom actions, or with Tikkas. In terms of bolt actions, I have 2 R700s (308 and 30.06), and then some military surplus rifles. I know I'd like a 1:7 to 1:8 twist, and around a 24" barrel. I like building stuff myself and tinkering with stuff, I've built several AKs, 1911, M1 Garand, and assembled a few ARs.

I like the wide aftermarket of the R700 platform, and I already have 2 of them, so there is some familiarity there, but I know the factory action isn't the best, and custom actions are a better option. I like fact that the Bighorm Origin action isn't terribly expensive, would allow me to pick the barrel I want, and build the rifle I want from the ground up, but I'd also have to buy a barrel vise and action wrench. I already have headspace gauges. I could match this action with the trigger of my choosing, some bottom metal, and a Manners stock.

Or, I could get the Tikka T3x 223 varmint rifle. I don't have any experience with Tikkas, but I've read good things. Manners makes stocks for them, and the action and barrel should be of good quality out of the box. I believe this option would probably be slightly cheaper too, but I don't have the same aftermarket selection.

I know some of you here have 223 bolt action rifles, what is your experience and what would you choose?

 

[JMcBurn]

My Tikka 223 Varmint shoots in the .1-.3 MOA with the 75gr BTHP or 75gr ELD-M. My load is 24.8gr of 8208XBR with the 75gr ELD-M at around 2.445"

 

[j741]

Get the Tikka. The actions are great and the rifles just plain shoot.

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

My Tikka 223 Varmint shoots in the .1-.3 MOA with the 75gr BTHP or 75gr ELD-M. My load is 24.8gr of 8208XBR with the 75gr ELD-M at around 2.445"View attachment 7070200

Nice group! Thanks for the info! Is your rifle all stock, or did you make any upgrades to it?

 

[JMcBurn]

I paid less than $700 for mine also by the way. Even putting it in an MPA, the overall cost is less than an Origin barrel action.

 

[JMcBurn]

Nice group! Thanks for the info! Is your rifle all stock, or did you make any upgrades to it?

Thanks sometimes I can shoot groups.

I put it in an MPA, put a $10 trigger spring and a 20 MOA base.

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

Thanks sometimes I can shoot groups.

I put it in an MPA, put a $10 trigger spring and a 20 MOA base.

Cool! Thanks for the info. I'll have to look into MPA. Could you PM me where you got your rifle? I see it for about $850 right now. $700 would be better.

 

[BWB]

If you go with the Origin out of the gate it gives you more long term options. Easily swapping barrels, changing bolt heads for another caliber, REM700 footprint for aftermarket stocks, triggers, etc..

Going this route now will likely save you more money down the road, plus its a better action.

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

If you go with the Origin out of the gate it gives you more long term options. Easily swapping barrels, changing bolt heads for another caliber, REM700 footprint for aftermarket stocks, triggers, etc..

Going this route now will likely save you more money down the road, plus its a better action.

Thanks! I do like that it's the Rem700 footprint for stocks and triggers. Outside of changing bolt heads / barrels, how else is the Origin a better action over the Tikka? Is it because the recoil lug is located between the action and the barrel instead of being in the stock?

 

[BWB]

This is direct off the website, but every one of these is a benefit. BOLD are my favorite reasons.

The ORIGIN action by ZAI includes some major features from ZAI’s Bighorn line of actions such as:
– pinned rail
– fluted bolt body
– floating and interchangeable bolt head
– controlled round feed
– fully enclosed mechanical ejector
– Remington style feed lips
New features for the ORIGIN are:
– pinned recoil lug
– swept bolt handle
– DLC coated bolt heads
– Salt bath nitride receiver and bolt body
Standard compatibility options include but are not limited to:
– Savage small shank pre-fit barrels
– Remington Model 700 inlet stocks and chassis
– Remington Model 700 aftermarket triggers
– Hinged floor plate internal box magazines
– AICS style detached box magazines (not AW)
– All of Bighorn Arms bolt knobs (5 options)

 

[BWB]

Hunts Long Range Supply also sells recoil lugs that will allow you to shoulder a barrel that was cut for the BigHorn TL3. You see those barrels all over. That's another huge perk in my eyes.

I love mine.

 

[JMcBurn]

This is direct off the website, but every one of these is a benefit. BOLD are my favorite reasons.

The ORIGIN action by ZAI includes some major features from ZAI’s Bighorn line of actions such as:
– pinned rail (tikka rails are pinned)
– fluted bolt body
– floating and interchangeable bolt head
– controlled round feed
– fully enclosed mechanical ejector
– Remington style feed lips
New features for the ORIGIN are:
– pinned recoil lug (tikka uses an integral lug machined into the bottom of the action)
– swept bolt handle (sterk and others are available for the tikka)
– DLC coated bolt heads
– Salt bath nitride receiver and bolt body (tikka bolt is nitrided and is just as smooth or smoother of an action as an Origin)
Standard compatibility options include but are not limited to:
– Savage small shank pre-fit barrels (tikka profit barrels are being produced currently)
– Remington Model 700 inlet stocks and chassis (plenty of tikka inlet stocks and chassis available)
– Remington Model 700 aftermarket triggers (tikka trigger is one of the best single stage triggers out there with aftermarket options available)
– Hinged floor plate internal box magazines
– AICS style detached box magazines (not AW) (tikka will take metal AICS mags with the right bottom metal)
– All of Bighorn Arms bolt knobs (5 options) (plenty of budget knobs available)

Notes on your post just to provide the OP information.

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

Thanks for the info! You're right, those are a lot of benefits, definitely something to consider, and I can piece it together as time and money allow. That's probably the best option. Might just give Big Horn a call.

 

[BWB]

They are amazing to deal with, best customer service I've encountered in the industry.

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

Notes on your post just to provide the OP information.

And the Tikka sounds like a great option as well. Thanks for the info. Sounds like I can't go wrong with either. Tikka would be cheaper to get me shooting, and then I could change out the stock for the Manners later.

 

[Sheldon N]

I'll echo BWB's comments and recommendations for the Origin. Opens the door for a lot more long term options to be built around that platform, better options for used gear like triggers, stocks, chassis, prefit shouldered barrels for either TL3 (w/ recoil lug) or Origin, and opens the door to make it an easy swap to a 308 bolt face caliber.

 

[JMcBurn]

They are amazing to deal with, best customer service I've encountered in the industry.

That I can agree on. Big Horns customer service is incredible, but my experience with getting a buddy's rifle together did have some hiccups that required the action to be shipped back to Big Horn for some parts/fitting to get it running 100%. Only reason I would dissuade the OP from going that route would be purely because it is his first custom (assumption based on what he says he has currently). If I could suggest a first custom I would suggest stepping up to a TL3 as it is truly a custom action that is fitted and perfect before it ships. The Origin might require a bit of fitting to get it running 100%, but when that work is done it is an incredible action.

 

[BWB]

Not sure what your "fitting" issues were, I haven't heard of any other issues. I have of the first they put out and I've had zero issues and it's been in a chassis and 2 other stocks since, everything fit fine. As stated if there does happen to be an issue they will address it. The end product is all anyone cares about and the Origin gives you a better end product.

 

[Lunchbox27]

I’m a Tikka fan. I have two, the one pictured has been completely upgraded, minus the action of course and trigger. The Tikka action is so smooth and I love the trigger as is. From the factory they are hammers and wont hold you back. I cannot speak to the Origin, but have heard nothing but good things. You won’t go wrong with either.

 

[DisplacedTexan]

Had a tikka and a bighorn tl3.... Still have the tikka.

 

[sleeplz]

@BWB what ring height are those? Also what brand?

 

[fb40dash5]

Notes on your post just to provide the OP information.

RE: the nitrided bolt point... aren't only the CTR and TAC bolts coated? And it's my understanding that they're a coating, not actually nitrided? Could be wrong, I bought a plain jane...

I'd say if you just want a custom action, or the enjoyment of building it up yourself, go for it.

Otherwise, a Tikka Varmint is a perfectly serviceable .223. The trigger, at least on mine, is as good as I can imagine wanting/needing... I'm not that experienced with good triggers (but have a lot of experience with not so good ones) but mine pretty much feels like glass breaking. That's a good chunk of change to not be spending.

If you wanted to split the difference you could also do what I did- buy a Lite cheap, and either shoot it for a while and rebarrel, or just shrug and say you just spent ~$600 for an action & trigger. You'll end up spending more (with my Bugnut & wrench, gauges, and barrel I spent more rebarreling than buying the rifle) but you get to tinker, and you get the barrel you want, not the limited selection that gets imported here out of their already limited choices. I originally did it cuz they didn't sell what I thought I wanted at the time (a 24" .308 heavy barrel) but in the meantime I decided I'd rather go 6.5CM anyway, so I don't regret not just laying down the cash for a CTR to begin with. Truth be told the Lite barrel was surprisingly not bad in .308, I can't imagine it wouldn't be even better with a much smaller bore, IIRC the profile doesn't change between calibers.

 

[patriot07]

Tikka - 8 days a week. The T3x Varmint 223 is one of the best values in the entire bolt gun world. It shoots stupidly good. One of the 2 guns I really regret selling. Mine was crazy accurate, but my wife made me get rid of one to get my 6.5CM.

 

[Stooxie]

The CTR bolts are Teflon coated. The regular ones are NiB or chromed, or something like that. When I had my bolt face opened up, the gunsmith pointed out how the end mill bit was getting a workout against the hard surface.

-Stooxie

 

[RampedRaptor]

Had a tikka and have a TL3. The tikka I had with a aftermarket bolt knob/trigger spring was smoother than my TL3 to run.

There’s good support out there for the Tikka and in your case, I’d recommend you lean towards the tikka. Great rifle/action

 

[JMcBurn]

RE: the nitrided bolt point... aren't only the CTR and TAC bolts coated? And it's my understanding that they're a coating, not actually nitrided? Could be wrong, I bought a plain jane...

Ever noticed that the silver non coated Carbon Steel bolt doesn't rust? It is super hard.

 

[MarinePMI]

I have 3 (soon to be four) Tikka T-3's, and just started the DROS on an Origin yesterday (f'ing Kalifornia).

I think most get it right (essentially), that it depends on long term goals.

I don't think the Origin is necessarily a "better" action than a Tikka, but it has a lot of long term versatility (with an associated increase in cost) over the Tikka. This is good if you plan on chasing cartridges or want to move up and down the short action size (.223, SPC/Valk, .308, and SAUM) over time. If you're more into building out a collection of precision rifles, than the Tikka is probably a better option. I love my Tikka's, but got the Origin because I wanted to play with the Valkyrie, and didn't want to be wedded to an action with a somewhat unique bolt face diameter.

Just depends on what you want to do...

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

I'll echo BWB's comments and recommendations for the Origin. Opens the door for a lot more long term options to be built around that platform, better options for used gear like triggers, stocks, chassis, prefit shouldered barrels for either TL3 (w/ recoil lug) or Origin, and opens the door to make it an easy swap to a 308 bolt face caliber.

You're right, it does seem to open more doors.

That I can agree on. Big Horns customer service is incredible, but my experience with getting a buddy's rifle together did have some hiccups that required the action to be shipped back to Big Horn for some parts/fitting to get it running 100%. Only reason I would dissuade the OP from going that route would be purely because it is his first custom (assumption based on what he says he has currently). If I could suggest a first custom I would suggest stepping up to a TL3 as it is truly a custom action that is fitted and perfect before it ships. The Origin might require a bit of fitting to get it running 100%, but when that work is done it is an incredible action.

Yeah, I think I'd be interested in the Tl3 for a future build, but considering the Origin for a 223. I'm not afraid of some fitting, I've built AKs and a 1911, neither of those platforms bolt together like an AR does.

 

[Changed]

The only thing holding me back from the origin is the swept bolt handle.

My tikka in .223 is everything I could ask for from a factory gun. It is as accurate as any mo my customs, but the barrel is slow and chromoly. This is a major drawback for me.

 

[Stooxie]

If the Origin was available with a 0 MOA rail I'd likely have one by now. I'm a huge nitride fan but paying another $500 for the TL3 for the privilege of losing nitride on the receiver and a 0 MOA rail is not happening.

 

[BWB]

@BWB what ring height are those? Also what brand?

Those are the Vortex/Seekins 30mm LOW - I think they are .87"

 

[BWB]

If the Origin was available with a 0 MOA rail I'd likely have one by now. I'm a huge nitride fan but paying another $500 for the TL3 for the privilege of losing nitride on the receiver and a 0 MOA rail is not happening.

The TL3 can come DLC coated for free and the new bolt bodies in the TL3 are nitrided. Why the hate for the 20 MOA rail? Just curious as I don't see a downfall in any way. I've moved every rifle I own over to a 20MOA rail and every one has zero'd just fine.

 

[Zermatt Arms]

If the Origin was available with a 0 MOA rail I'd likely have one by now. I'm a huge nitride fan but paying another $500 for the TL3 for the privilege of losing nitride on the receiver and a 0 MOA rail is not happening.

Is there a particular need for a 0 MOA rail in your situation? We've had a number of people raise the concern that, with a 20 MOA rail, they would not be able to zero at a short distance. After imploring each one of those people to at least give it a try, they've always succeeded in zeroing at the distance they thought it would not be possible. If there is a different reason, we'd be happy to hear you out and look for a solution.

Thank you - Ray

 

[BWB]

There's that STELLAR customer service!!! Thanks for the reply Ray

 

[Stooxie]

Is there a particular need for a 0 MOA rail in your situation? We've had a number of people raise the concern that, with a 20 MOA rail, they would not be able to zero at a short distance. After imploring each one of those people to at least give it a try, they've always succeeded in zeroing at the distance they thought it would not be possible. If there is a different reason, we'd be happy to hear you out and look for a solution.

Thank you - Ray

I appreciate the question!

It's not a matter of will it work or won't it, it's a matter of paying for a problem that I then have to solve. I get it, any good scope has at least 60 MOA, or whatever, of elevation, meaning 30 up and down. I zero for 100-200 yards and on most of my rifles (both bolt and AR) that generally requires almost no adjustment to the scope. Maybe 10 to 20 clicks (2-6 MOA) of elevation and almost nothing for windage with good quality mounts.

Maybe I don't understand how it works (which is entirely possible), but if I have to overcome a 20 MOA rail by cranking my reticle by 1/2 to 2/3s of the available adjustment in that direction, what's the point? I know it won't hurt a good scope but having to pay for the privilege just doesn't strike me as something I want to do. Call it OCD if you like. ;-)

From a manufacturing standpoint I totally get it! Having fewer options keeps costs down and streamlines production. I would figure that it's easy to add height to a 0 MOA rail, with any number of great solutions, but there's only one way to take it out.

-Stooxie

 

[Zermatt Arms]

I appreciate the question!

It's not a matter of will it work or won't it, it's a matter of paying for a problem that I then have to solve. I get it, any good scope has at least 60 MOA, or whatever, of elevation, meaning 30 up and down. I zero for 100-200 yards and on most of my rifles (both bolt and AR) that generally requires almost no adjustment to the scope. Maybe 10 to 20 clicks (2-6 MOA) of elevation and almost nothing for windage with good quality mounts.

Maybe I don't understand how it works (which is entirely possible), but if I have to overcome a 20 MOA rail by cranking my reticle by 1/2 to 2/3s of the available adjustment in that direction, what's the point? I know it won't hurt a good scope but having to pay for the privilege just doesn't strike me as something I want to do. Call it OCD if you like. ;-)

From a manufacturing standpoint I totally get it! Having fewer options keeps costs down and streamlines production. I would figure that it's easy to add height to a 0 MOA rail, with any number of great solutions, but there's only one way to take it out.

-Stooxie

Understood. Thanks for the input!

 

[JMcBurn]

You're right, it does seem to open more doors.



Yeah, I think I'd be interested in the Tl3 for a future build, but considering the Origin for a 223. I'm not afraid of some fitting, I've built AKs and a 1911, neither of those platforms bolt together like an AR does.

Well from reading the origin thread most of the work that needs done is just timing the trigger. I believe it is something that big horn or any good smith will do for a nominal fee. That way it is perfect to be assembled.

 

[DisplacedTexan]

If the Origin was available with a 0 MOA rail I'd likely have one by now. I'm a huge nitride fan but paying another $500 for the TL3 for the privilege of losing nitride on the receiver and a 0 MOA rail is not happening.

I appreciate the question!

It's not a matter of will it work or won't it, it's a matter of paying for a problem that I then have to solve. I get it, any good scope has at least 60 MOA, or whatever, of elevation, meaning 30 up and down. I zero for 100-200 yards and on most of my rifles (both bolt and AR) that generally requires almost no adjustment to the scope. Maybe 10 to 20 clicks (2-6 MOA) of elevation and almost nothing for windage with good quality mounts.

Maybe I don't understand how it works (which is entirely possible), but if I have to overcome a 20 MOA rail by cranking my reticle by 1/2 to 2/3s of the available adjustment in that direction, what's the point? I know it won't hurt a good scope but having to pay for the privilege just doesn't strike me as something I want to do. Call it OCD if you like. ;-)

From a manufacturing standpoint I totally get it! Having fewer options keeps costs down and streamlines production. I would figure that it's easy to add height to a 0 MOA rail, with any number of great solutions, but there's only one way to take it out.

-Stooxie

You do realize that cranking that 1/3-2/3 gives you that much more elevation from zero? So you get more out of your scope....

 

[Stooxie]

You do realize that cranking that 1/3-2/3 gives you that much more elevation from zero? So you get more out of your scope....

Understood, but if I'm not shooting that far it's a purely academic argument. I understand why someone would want a scope base higher than 0 MOA.

-Stooxie

 

[BWB]

It also voids your NEED for a 0MOA base, no? I have yet to run into a circumstance where a 0 MOA base is better than a 20 MOA base and the 20 MOA gives me more options down the road to get more elevation out of my optic. If I never use it...great, but it's there if I want it.

 

[skeetlee]

the big horn shouldnt even be compared to a tikka. the origin is in a much superior class. tikkas are fine but they are not the same quality of a origin.

 

[MarinePMI]

Not sure I can completely agree with that. They're pretty close in quality; the Origin just gives you more options (as previously stated).

 

[Stooxie]

It also voids your NEED for a 0MOA base, no? I have yet to run into a circumstance where a 0 MOA base is better than a 20 MOA base and the 20 MOA gives me more options down the road to get more elevation out of my optic. If I never use it...great, but it's there if I want it.

I think we're getting away from the point here. I think the Origin sounds awesome for several reasons: nitride everything, controlled round feed, Savage barrel tenon, Remington footprint, looks great, supports multiple bolt heads, etc. As I said, I'd probably have one by now if not for the rail I'd build another 6.8 SPC bolt action rifle with it.

But here's the magic: I have enough choices not to need it. I don't need to rationalize myself into it, I have fully customized Tikkas (including a 6.8 SPC II) that shoot 1/3 MOA to 1/2 MOA all day. No more than $1,400 invested in any of them. Not saying they are better than the Origin, just that I'm good where I am and whether the 20 MOA rail thing is an objection that exists purely in my head or not, it's still a hurdle for me. Sounds like it is for others, too. I'm in sales as well. Believe me, just being able to say "yes" beats the shit out of trying to "educate the customer" over to your side all day long.

That said, I agree with those above saying the Origin allows for more options. That's plain as day. If the OP doesn't mind spending the bones it looks like an awesome platform. The Savage barrel nut with Remington footprint is super smart, and all in worry-free nitride. I'm there. Almost. ?

-Stooxie

 

[patriot07]

I have never used a 20 MOA base and have taken my 6.5 CM to 1,200 yards without issue.

My big complaint about a 20 MOA base is that it forces the scope higher (since objective bell is now angled down), and then angles up the line of sight so that you have to adjust your stock quite a bit to overcome it. The one rifle I tried with a 20 MOA base was uncomfortably high. So that's the reason I don't bother with it. If I was pushing the limits of elevation range, I'd do it and live with the downsides, but I'm not and I don't and it's never been an issue.

I did have a guy at the range one time who was having all sorts of problems and couldn't get zero-ed and I went to help him and it turns out he had a 20 MOA base with pretty low quality rings and a scope without a ton of adjustment, and he just couldn't get there. So while it's not a common issue, it's not non-existent either. Most folks aren't pushing the limit of their scope, so I just don't really see the point honestly unless you are.

 

[spife7980]

Yeah but are those the people spending 850 bucks on an action? No, they choose different alternatives in a price bracket more appropriate for those issues.

 

[patriot07]

Yeah but are those the people spending 850 bucks on an action? No, they choose different alternatives in a price bracket more appropriate for those issues.

I almost prefaced the entire rant with, "It seems completely irrelevant to this thread."

But hey, if we didn't talk about irrelevant stuff, this place would be incredibly boring.