custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

[300sniper]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My gunsmith tells me he gets many times more uses from tooling when using it on Remingtons than using it on other stuff.

Mentioning cutting through heat treating, I was thinking of extractors. Since you don't have to modify that on a custom action. </div></div>

could that be because the amount of material removed while truing a remington action is very minimal compared to what ever else he is machining? </div></div>

Comparing Winchesters to Remingtons he says he gets 15 uses from a cutter on the latter two 1-2 on the former. He's probably one of the best guys to go to in the country for a push feed M70 build. </div></div>


oh, now i get it. my bad. i guess i just thought since we were in a thread comparing trued remington 700s to aftermarket actions, i figured you were comparing those when you said this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The metallurgy/hardening is better, and you don't have to cut through the surface of the action to work on it, because it is already done.
</div></div>

i didn't realize you were comparing a remington to a winchester. since we are now talking about that, why is the metallurgy/hardening better on a winchester than a remington? have you ever had or seen a remington fail due to the inferior metallurgy/hardening?

 

[ANGLICOMarine]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Run to Wal-Mart and pick up a youth model rifle.

They are $396.99 for a Rem 700 ADL youth packages.

Sell the barrel for about $80.

Sell the stock for $60. They sell quick to guys wanting to take their grandkids hunting but don't want to buy them a rifle.

Sell the trigger for $40-50.

Sell the scope, bases, rings for $40-50.

I've done this a couple times now, myself.

In the end, you have a Rem 700 for about $200. $250 to blueprint it and you have a nice damn action for $450. Pick the trigger of your choice and you're ready for a barrel and ready to rock and roll. Its been a winning formula for me to put together half a dozen custom rifles.

</div></div>


That is exactly what I did...started at Walmart and ended up with a KMW.

 

[Hondo64d]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

On the last rifle I had put together, I went with a custom action because by the time I had the following done to my stainless Remington action, I was within $100 of a custom action:

Receiver face squared
Lug seats squared.
Threads trued
Raceway reamed for PT&G bolt
Action milled for Wyatt extended box.
PT&G bolt.
Side bolt release installed.

I could have gone without the bolt, but in order to get it to custom specs I would have needed to have:

Firing pin hole bushed.
Bolt sleeved
Bolt face squared
Bolt logs squared

It was easy to flip my stainless 700 action for what I had in it and recoup a good chunk of the custom cost. In the end, the stiller was the most cost effective solution for me and I have not regretted my choice.

John

 

[bohem]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The metallurgy/hardening is better, and you don't have to cut through the surface of the action to work on it, because it is already done.
</div></div>

really? do you have some proof of this? i'd bet many, if not all of the aftermarket action manufactures rough out the receiver, then heat treat and then do the final machining. remington 700's aren't case hardened. when truing one, you aren't doing anything that an aftermarket action manufacture isn't doing on finish machining. </div></div>

I do, actually. Here's what I have from running the metallurgy tests on Remington steels, talking to manufacturers making the customs, touring the Remington plant and watching the raws in a couple of the shops actually making the custom actions.

1) Remingtons are thru hardened, not cased
2) Remingtons are completely machined and then heat treated. This is telltale from the fact that many are U shaped.
3) The "crookedness" of the Remington's is due to the process and how to make the rifle in an economical manner. I've heard the comment from an extremely good rifle smith say "The Remington is a K-mart version of the Mauser 98." I'm going to leave his name out of it, however his work is known on this site and many others. I don't disagree with him.

4) I've seen where a number of the custom actions come from when touring a couple of shops. The material is pre-hard almost exclusively. With modern equipment and carbide tooling it is not only more effective to put out a higher quality product cutting things one time as well as not difficult to cut the steels associated with rifle actions using such carbide tooling.

Exceptions to this come in the form of certain case hardening materials that once hardened require diamond or abrasive methods (grinding) to cut them. The applications of the certain materials that I have in mind, and which are used sparingly in the custom action world happens on small parts and things that are easily setup for post work in small/fast CNC equipment.

My feeling is this:

The Remington action as a base action is good to start with. If you have it already and you don't want to sell it off for whatever reason you will still have an excellent rifle to work with.

Taking that action, with an avg. market value of appx. $400 and then truing it (~$200), adding a side bolt release (~$100), pinning the recoil lug (~$75), truing and oversizing the scope base holes (~$75), upgrading the extractor (~$100) and retiming the handle and welding on a new threaded handle/knob (~$125) and adding an aftermarket recoil lug (~$25-35) puts you at over $1000 invested in the action. Let's skip the fluted bolts for now since that's usually an option for custom makers.

It is now slicked up and has many of the features that other custom makers advertise. It will also shoot extraordinarily well and you'll have a rifle to be proud of.

Down the road you attempt to sell it. All that extra work that you paid $600+ for is worth $0.50 on the dollar give or take a little.

If you are considering going "whole hog" on the truing and upgrades then just sell the Remington to someone who isn't going to do all that and save your pennies to buy a custom action with all the bells and whistles at the start.

If you just want the tenon and bolt head trued with a new barrel installed then it is still worth it to stick with the Remington (or just about any other factory action for that matter).

</div></div>

i don't think you proved anything that he stated is true. when we put our tooling to a remington 700 to true it up, we aren't doing anything that an aftermarket action manufacture isn't doing on final finish machining. it doesn't really matter if a aftermarket action manufacture starts with pre-hard or not.

</div></div>

Actually, I corrected your statement that action manufacturers machine soft, then heat treat and post machine. It's not done that way by the majority of custom manufacturers.

I'm not arguing that the truing process does anything to the tenon and lug abutment surfaces that aren't done by the custom action manufacturers, which I also clearly stated.

My point is to comment on the misconception that the Remington manufacturing process is no different than the majority of custom manufacturing processes except that the custom processes "true" after heat treat.

 

[bohem]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> [...]adding a side bolt release (~$100), pinning the recoil lug (~$75), truing and oversizing the scope base holes (~$75), upgrading the extractor (~$100) and retiming the handle and welding on a new threaded handle/knob (~$125) and adding an aftermarket recoil lug (~$25-35) puts you at over $1000 invested in the action. [...] </div></div>

You’ve already added a bunch of other superficial costs, so why skip the fluting?</div></div>

I didn't include it because that's an add-on to the custom actions usually, not a standard. My rationale was that we're discussing what it takes to get a Remington 700 up to the same feature list as the average custom action. That doesn't usually involved a fluted bolt, so I skipped it. If you add the cost of a fluted bolt to either one I don't see how it makes a difference one way or another. The same cost is added to both.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can’t speak for others, but I am upgrading my action to increase consistency. I want my action to lock up square and cycle efficiently. The receiver’s concentricity is going to compliment the quality barrel that I’ve also invested in. Fat knobs, big holes, and fancy extractors are not necessary. As my students would say, “It’s all just swag.”
</div></div>

I agree, that's why I made a clear delineation between truing the receiver to the point that the "things that matter" are equivalent and the full, gold plated cost to match the spec sheet.

$600-650 for a trued receiver that doesn't have a bunch of bells and whistles is much cheaper than a full custom with lots of bells and whistles but the effective performance on the bullets going downrange is negligible.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Custom actions are great. The higher cost is justified by offering a variety of unique options to the customer. However, If all that is needed is a solid, repeatable and reliable action, a trued 700 is half the cost.

You can gold plate a 700 and then say a custom will be cheaper, but what exactly is your point?
</div></div>

I think that I made a clear point at the end but it appears that wasn't quite so. Here's what I am saying:


Equivalent features specs starting from a Remington action is less cost effective than just buying a full custom action.

Just truing the tenon and timing for a true tenon and proper timing on the action for proper extraction function is less expensive and much more "worth it" in my opinion.

 

[300sniper]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Actually, I corrected your statement that action manufacturers machine soft, then heat treat and post machine. It's not done that way by the majority of custom manufacturers.

I'm not arguing that the truing process does anything to the tenon and lug abutment surfaces that aren't done by the custom action manufacturers, which I also clearly stated.

<span style="color: #FF0000">My point is to comment on the misconception that the Remington manufacturing process is no different than the majority of custom manufacturing processes except that the custom processes "true" after heat treat.</span>
</div></div>

re-read what i said in my first post. i asked for proof that remington's had bad metallurgy/hardness. i also wanted to know what surface you are cutting through on a remington when truing it that a aftermarket action manufacturer doesn't do on finish machining. you replied that you can prove it.

i was never comparing remington's manufacturing processes to aftermarket action's manufacturing processes. i was comparing a smith making truing cuts on a remington to an aftermarket action manufacturer's final finish machining. all of it is done post heat treat.

here's kind of an interesting video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKYG94u8-...ture=plpp_video

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hondo64d</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the last rifle I had put together, I went with a custom action because by the time I had the following done to my stainless Remington action, I was within $100 of a custom action:

<span style="color: #FF0000">Receiver face squared</span>
<span style="color: #FF0000">Lug seats squared</span>.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Threads trued</span>
<span style="color: #009900">Raceway reamed for PT&G bolt</span>
<span style="color: #009900">Action milled for Wyatt extended box.</span>
<span style="color: #009900">PT&G bolt</span>.
<span style="color: #009900">Side bolt release installed.</span>
I could have gone without the bolt, but in order to get it to custom specs I would have needed to have:

<span style="color: #3366FF">Firing pin hole bushed.</span>
<span style="color: #009900">Bolt sleeved</span>
<span style="color: #FF0000">Bolt face squared
Bolt logs squared</span>
It was easy to flip my stainless 700 action for what I had in it and recoup a good chunk of the custom cost. In the end, the stiller was the most cost effective solution for me and I have not regretted my choice.

John

</div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">The Red: </span> Everything in the Red is covered in getting a Remmy blueprinted. Cost=$250 max

<span style="color: #3366FF">The Blue:</span> That one i'll give you. Some cartridges need this. Cost=$82

<span style="color: #009900">The Green:</span> Completely unnecessary!

So if you buy everything high (R700 for $400, $250 for BP, and $82 for bolt bush) you would still only be $732 into the Remington. But, if you did what some have suggested here, you would be $450-$500 into a blueprinted remington. If what you want is every thing Hondo64d listed, than what you really want is a custom action to begin with. Just know that for the guy trying to do this on a budget all of that unnecessary Green crap is not going to make your rifle shoot better.

For the most bang for your buck in a custom rig buy a Remington, have it blueprinted, do not skimp on a quality barrel, bed the rifle to a decent quality stock, and tune the trigger (cheapest option but i would recommend a good trigger replacement). If you do this it will be just as as capable as the guys who spend a lot more.

At the risk of being proved wrong and sounding like an idiot, i would say that most of the top rifle builders on this site that sell complete custom rifles based on a blueprinted Remington are not sleeving bolts or adding PTG bolts to them as part of their 'truing' process.

 

[bohem]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Actually, I corrected your statement that action manufacturers machine soft, then heat treat and post machine. It's not done that way by the majority of custom manufacturers.

I'm not arguing that the truing process does anything to the tenon and lug abutment surfaces that aren't done by the custom action manufacturers, which I also clearly stated.

<span style="color: #FF0000">My point is to comment on the misconception that the Remington manufacturing process is no different than the majority of custom manufacturing processes except that the custom processes "true" after heat treat.</span>
</div></div>

re-read what i said in my first post. i asked for proof that remington's had bad metallurgy/hardness. i also wanted to know what surface you are cutting through on a remington when truing it that a aftermarket action manufactured doesn't do on finish machining. you replied that you can prove it.

i was never comparing remington's manufacturing processes to aftermarket action's manufacturing processes. i was comparing a smith making truing cuts on a remington to an aftermarket action manufacturer's final finish machining. all of it is done post heat treat.

here's kind of an interesting video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKYG94u8-...ture=plpp_video </div></div>

That's one manufacturer that cuts in the soft, which is hardly a demonstration to the "majority" doing the same thing.


The comment in red is what got me, from your initial post:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The metallurgy/hardening is better, and you don't have to cut through the surface of the action to work on it, because it is already done.
</div></div>

really? do you have some proof of this? <span style="color: #FF0000">i'd bet many, if not all of the aftermarket action manufactures rough out the receiver, then heat treat and then do the final machining.</span> remington 700's aren't case hardened. when truing one, you aren't doing anything that an aftermarket action manufacture isn't doing on finish machining. </div></div>






I don't really see a point to this though, we're in agreement that the truing of a Remington is a post heat treat process, that the rifles shoot the same and it's the bells and whistles that differ from customs vs. factory actions, and that the Remington's aren't case hardened. Nor are we in disagreement that the metal alloy used in Remington receivers is substandard.

I took chips generated from truing a blued Rem 700 action, 7 digit no prefix and it had a friend's metallurgy lab run the standard set of tests for alloy identification. It came back as a dead ringer for this:

http://matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=617e73be10b94e82ad2b9fc92479d03a

That isn't a low grade alloy, it is not extremely hard or soft, and it shows a good elongation to failure level which is important for a receiver that may experience a case failure and overpressure event. It will yield and soak up energy prior to outright fracture, that's an important feature for a safe action alloy.


It appears to me that we're only in disagreement on your statement from the initial post, in red, regarding the roughing, heat treat, and finish machining as I know that to be off base for:

All the receiver blanks come from a gun drilling and wire shop that uses pre-hard. The receivers that I saw, and was required as a condition of the tour to leave unnamed, comprise probably 70% of the customs that are regularly seen on this site.

The video that you posted is interesting, and it is an example of a custom builder that does rough, heat treat, post machine. It does not define how all of the shops do it, and indeed from the appx. dozen receivers from different manufacturers that I saw the rough, HT, post process does not comprise a "majority if not all".

ETA: I think it was unclear what I meant when I had proof of the metallurgy, and it was in agreement with your statement and to the contrary of what was posed by the other poster.

I know what the alloy is and it's heat treat condition in Remington's. I also know what the alloy is on the aftermarket actions and the heat treat conditions, like many of us do. Neither is substandard.

Like I said above, I think the only thing we're in disagreement on is the comment

<span style="color: #FF0000">i'd bet many, if not all of the aftermarket action manufactures rough out the receiver, then heat treat and then do the final machining.</span>

As I've been to a number of shops, including one that does a lot of the blanking work for custom manufacturers and it they start with pre-hard.

 

[eyehunter92]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

Since this is America. You should get it exactly the way you want it. Go custom and skip eating out for a month. I always believe a gun with a reputable name on it, is not only going to be easier to sell (when you get bored with it), but will command a price closer to what you paid for it. "You can not have both quality and quantitiy".

 

[Texar2]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

I thought Surgeon machined thier actions after heat treating? Also has anyone noticed that the new Remingtons seem to not cut the same as old ones. I recently trued a new remington and an old remington sortsman 78. Seems like the old metal peeled off and the new kind of crumbled off like powder. Also, had a small piece of the new bolt fracture off during normal operation. The lugs lapped up very nice on the old 78 but I could not acheive the same results with the new one. The metal seemed to be porous on the new 700. I will no longer use new 700s from marlington master.

 

[lonely_wolf]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that I made a clear point at the end but it appears that wasn't quite so. </div></div>

Sorry mate, I got caught up in the thread. You were quite clear at the end. It seems we agree!

 

[bohem]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Recoil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought Surgeon machined thier actions after heat treating? </div></div>

If they are now, that's a relatively new change. The Precision SHooting article from October 2009 on the Surgeon RSR's talks about the RSR's and 591's being cut from a piece of pre-hard.

Perhaps they changed to something different when they were bought out.

 

[Texar2]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

Just read thier new webpage. Click on actions. It explains how they make the bolt and action.

 

[henke4310]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

another question for you guys what the difference between a remington 700 and 722? Would stocks inlet for 700 fit the 722?
are triggers and bolts the same? It seems to me that iv read somewhere that there pretty much the same but iv never compared the 2. I have a remington 788 and a few 700 and i know they are nothing alike

 

[donovan]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

1/4 moa is the same out of both just how much coin you want to spend have Surgeon, templar, and trued 700 . if done by a good smith 1/4 moa is the same outta both just what you want and how much you want to spend............

 

[300sniper]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That's one manufacturer that cuts in the soft, which is hardly a demonstration to the "majority" doing the same thing.


The comment in red is what got me, from your initial post:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The metallurgy/hardening is better, and you don't have to cut through the surface of the action to work on it, because it is already done.
</div></div>

really? do you have some proof of this? <span style="color: #FF0000">i'd bet many, if not all of the aftermarket action manufactures rough out the receiver, then heat treat and then do the final machining.</span> remington 700's aren't case hardened. when truing one, you aren't doing anything that an aftermarket action manufacture isn't doing on finish machining. </div></div>






I don't really see a point to this though, we're in agreement that the truing of a Remington is a post heat treat process, that the rifles shoot the same and it's the bells and whistles that differ from customs vs. factory actions, and that the Remington's aren't case hardened. Nor are we in disagreement that the metal alloy used in Remington receivers is substandard.

I took chips generated from truing a blued Rem 700 action, 7 digit no prefix and it had a friend's metallurgy lab run the standard set of tests for alloy identification. It came back as a dead ringer for this:

http://matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=617e73be10b94e82ad2b9fc92479d03a

That isn't a low grade alloy, it is not extremely hard or soft, and it shows a good elongation to failure level which is important for a receiver that may experience a case failure and overpressure event. It will yield and soak up energy prior to outright fracture, that's an important feature for a safe action alloy.


It appears to me that we're only in disagreement on your statement from the initial post, in red, regarding the roughing, heat treat, and finish machining as I know that to be off base for:

All the receiver blanks come from a gun drilling and wire shop that uses pre-hard. The receivers that I saw, and was required as a condition of the tour to leave unnamed, comprise probably 70% of the customs that are regularly seen on this site.

The video that you posted is interesting, and it is an example of a custom builder that does rough, heat treat, post machine. It does not define how all of the shops do it, and indeed from the appx. dozen receivers from different manufacturers that I saw the rough, HT, post process does not comprise a "majority if not all".

ETA: I think it was unclear what I meant when I had proof of the metallurgy, and it was in agreement with your statement and to the contrary of what was posed by the other poster.

I know what the alloy is and it's heat treat condition in Remington's. I also know what the alloy is on the aftermarket actions and the heat treat conditions, like many of us do. Neither is substandard.

Like I said above, I think the only thing we're in disagreement on is the comment

<span style="color: #FF0000">i'd bet many, if not all of the aftermarket action manufactures rough out the receiver, then heat treat and then do the final machining.</span>

As I've been to a number of shops, including one that does a lot of the blanking work for custom manufacturers and it they start with pre-hard. </div></div>


gotcha bohem. i think we're on the same page now. i guess i would have lost that bet about the machining/heat treat process. that's why i said "i'd bet" and not stated it as a fact. i haven't seen everyone's manufacturing processes but i really would have thought the majority would have roughed out the part and finish post heat treat.

i think it just gets me when someone does state something as fact such as the bad metallurgy and hardness without any way to back it up. there are plenty of reasons to use an aftermarket actions without making things up to sell them.

 

[kheuertz]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

Custom action would be my recommendation...I went with a Surgeon 591 with integrated lug and solid, one piece 20 MOA rail that was EDM machined.

I figured less variables the better. (i.e. separate lug, action, rail, screws, alignment, etc.)

...and I figure less excuses!

 

[Hondo64d]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hondo64d</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the last rifle I had put together, I went with a custom action because by the time I had the following done to my stainless Remington action, I was within $100 of a custom action:

<span style="color: #FF0000">Receiver face squared</span>
<span style="color: #FF0000">Lug seats squared</span>.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Threads trued</span>
<span style="color: #009900">Raceway reamed for PT&G bolt</span>
<span style="color: #009900">Action milled for Wyatt extended box.</span>
<span style="color: #009900">PT&G bolt</span>.
<span style="color: #009900">Side bolt release installed.</span>
I could have gone without the bolt, but in order to get it to custom specs I would have needed to have:

<span style="color: #3366FF">Firing pin hole bushed.</span>
<span style="color: #009900">Bolt sleeved</span>
<span style="color: #FF0000">Bolt face squared
Bolt logs squared</span>
It was easy to flip my stainless 700 action for what I had in it and recoup a good chunk of the custom cost. In the end, the stiller was the most cost effective solution for me and I have not regretted my choice.

John

</div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">The Red: </span> Everything in the Red is covered in getting a Remmy blueprinted. Cost=$250 max

<span style="color: #3366FF">The Blue:</span> That one i'll give you. Some cartridges need this. Cost=$82

<span style="color: #009900">The Green:</span> Completely unnecessary!

So if you buy everything high (R700 for $400, $250 for BP, and $82 for bolt bush) you would still only be $732 into the Remington. But, if you did what some have suggested here, you would be $450-$500 into a blueprinted remington. If what you want is every thing Hondo64d listed, than what you really want is a custom action to begin with. Just know that for the guy trying to do this on a budget all of that unnecessary Green crap is not going to make your rifle shoot better.

For the most bang for your buck in a custom rig buy a Remington, have it blueprinted, do not skimp on a quality barrel, bed the rifle to a decent quality stock, and tune the trigger (cheapest option but i would recommend a good trigger replacement). If you do this it will be just as as capable as the guys who spend a lot more.

At the risk of being proved wrong and sounding like an idiot, i would say that most of the top rifle builders on this site that sell complete custom rifles based on a blueprinted Remington are not sleeving bolts or adding PTG bolts to them as part of their 'truing' process. </div></div>

Mulie,

As far as the items you deemed as unnecessary, I never deemed them as necessary, but specified to bring the 700 up to custom action specs. I went with a Stiller because I like the features it includes. To make a 700 have the same features cost money. I will concede. and did in my previous post, that you can get away without having the 700 action fitted for a PT&G bolt, but you would still have to have it sleeved, have the bolt face squared, firing pin hole bushed, lugs squared and the bolt sleeved to bring it to the same specs as a custom. You may be correct in that most who true 700s don't, unless requested, sleeve the bolt, but if they don't the tolerances will not be up to those of a Stiller, Borden, Defiance, etc. The Remington will have .010 to .012" of play between the bolt body and the raceways, a Stiller .004 to .006, and a Borden, IIRC, about .003". Necessary for acceptable accuracy? Maybe not, but that was never my point.

John

 

[hillsidehog]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Recoil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought Surgeon machined thier actions after heat treating? Also has anyone noticed that the new Remingtons seem to not cut the same as old ones. I recently trued a new remington and an old remington sortsman 78. Seems like the old metal peeled off and the new kind of crumbled off like powder. Also, had a small piece of the new bolt fracture off during normal operation. The lugs lapped up very nice on the old 78 but I could not acheive the same results with the new one. The metal seemed to be porous on the new 700. I will no longer use new 700s from marlington master. </div></div>

Is there any truth to this..I had a Smith tell me not to waste my money on a new 700 action( years idk ) but to find an old one when Remington seemed to be putting out a better product. Again..the exact years I don't know..should have asked...I'm leaning to the custom side so didn't really think about it at the time.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hondo64d</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but you would still have to have it sleeved, have the bolt face squared, firing pin hole bushed, lugs squared and the bolt sleeved to bring it to the same specs as a custom. You may be correct in that most who true 700s don't, unless requested, sleeve the bolt, but if they don't the tolerances will not be up to those of a Stiller, Borden, Defiance, etc. The Remington will have .010 to .012" of play between the bolt body and the raceways, a Stiller .004 to .006, and a Borden, IIRC, about .003". Necessary for acceptable accuracy? Maybe not, but that was never my point.

John </div></div>

Hondo,

I understand what you are saying as far as apples to apples to get the Remmy to have all the creature comfort features of the customs. I am not trying to slam you for picking the Stiller. I myself have a Bat action that has an integral rail and recoil lug, and a bolt to raceway tolerance of .0015". I am just trying to clarify for the budget builder what they can expect to get on a budget, which for precision purposes, is the same as the customs.

I respectfully disagree in regard to the tolerances however. Remington's do in fact have greater bolt to raceway tolerance than most customs but it's only about .007", not '.010"-.012"' (.695" bolt in a .702" raceway usually plus or minus .0005"). Depending on the builder and the intended purpose of the custom action, raceway tolerances can be anywhere from a .001" fit on a Benchrest action to .005" on a custom hunting style action. If a Remington has had the reciever face and threads cut true, lug abutments squared, bolt face trued, and bolt lugs squred (all done on a blueprinting), and proper headspace and chambering upon installation, when the bolt locks up in the reciever the cartridge is being held true to the center line of the bore with the bolt and abutments snug into place. For precision that is all that matters and is one of the reasons Savage actions with a floating bolt head do so well straight from the factory (and why some builders offer a 1/4 moa gaurauntee on their Rem built rifles). In fact it was good enough for the Savage team to win the F-Class Nationals a few years back. In fact one respected builder on this site, Big Horn, has incorporated that into their action design with good results.

It is not necessary to sleeve a Remington bolt for max precision for the reasons stated above, and its expensive. If everything else is done correctly they will shoot with the best customs. Bushing the firing pin is more caliber specific as in harvesting a Remington 700 short action and chambering it in 6BR or 6.5x47 Lapua where you are using a standard bolt face action (.473" bolt face) with a cartridge that uses a small rifle primer instead of a large rifle primer like the .308. Some do believe that a firing pin hole being perfectly centered in the bolt face aids precision but i have not seen any tests confirming this. I have however seen factory remingtons blueprinted as stated above be competitive with any other custom actioned precision rifle.

So for the budget buyer...don't sweat spending your hard earned and slow to come by money on a Blueprinted Remington or Savage action. You are not being cheated or shorted unless you decide to sell it and hope to get most of your money back. But if you are on a budget and decide you want something different you are more likely to rebarrel it anyway than get rid of it, and at that point it will be cheaper because all that truing work will already be done. The 10 shot group that was fired above at 506 yds was shot with a Douglas barrel and an untouched Remington action. It was bedded in an HS precision stock, and a spring kit and rework was done to the factory Remington trigger to yield a 1.5# trigger pull. That rifle is to date the most accurate rifle i have seen.

In case you missed it <span style="font-size: 26pt">GET A GOOD BARREL!!!</span> (I personnaly prefer Benchmark Barrels) the rest is important but secondary.

 

[roboto1138]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

Great thread, I am new to the bolt gun/long range shooting and new to this site. I have started a new project this year with a Remington 700 AAC -SD and will slowly be building it up over the next year. I didn't really have the money to start custom out of the box. Would the addition of a PTG bolt in a unworked Remington 700 action have any advantage until the action could be trued? I don't want to go off topic, I figured it kind of fit in to this post.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

I wouldn't bother with the PTG bolt. For the cost of the bolt you can have the action blueprinted which is WAY more important. I have observed when blueprinting a remington 700 that, as the internal lug abutments were being cut, one lug would sometimes cut before the other one. That means that, when you chambered a round, only one of the lugs was getting full contact.

It's best to tackle the blueprinting when you decide to rebarrel with a quality barrel. The barrel and blueprinting is HUGE in making it shoot. If you have a couple hundred dollars in your pocket and are looking for a place to start your upgrade, put a quality trigger in it like a Jewell or Timney. Next get yourself a Karsten cheek piece to aid in consistent cheek weld. Then bed your action to your stock in epoxy. These will give you the best low budget benefits until your ready to tackle the custom stock, blueprinting, and rebarrel.

 

[roboto1138]

Re: custom action over bluprinted remington 700?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't bother with the PTG bolt. For the cost of the bolt you can have the action blueprinted which is WAY more important. I have observed when blueprinting a remington 700 that, as the internal lug abutments were being cut, one lug would sometimes cut before the other one. That means that, when you chambered a round, only one of the lugs was getting full contact.

It's best to tackle the blueprinting when you decide to rebarrel with a quality barrel. The barrel and blueprinting is HUGE in making it shoot. If you have a couple hundred dollars in your pocket and are looking for a place to start your upgrade, put a quality trigger in it like a Jewell or Timney. Next get yourself a Karsten cheek piece to aid in consistent cheek weld. Then bed your action to your stock in epoxy. These will give you the best low budget benefits until your ready to tackle the custom stock, blueprinting, and rebarrel.</div></div>


That is kind of what I figured. I am a new shooter anyways and the gun out shoots my skill level any ways until I get a couple more down the tube.

I have a Bell and Carlson Tactical A3 style stock, a Timney trigger and a sheet of Kydex sitting in the closet to build a cheek rest.

Thanks for the advice.