Customer Accuracy Expectations

[David Lott]

What are the current accuracy expectations from a custom rifle group-wise at
50 Yards
100 yards
200 yards
Anything past would be great but we know the wind will play a huge role past 200.

 

[acourvil]

I mostly shoot local matches, I am not a high-level competitor. But with a good load and a custom rifle, I expect to be able to shoot 1/2MOA 90% of the time at 100 and maybe 80% of the time at 200 with mild to moderate wind. I don’t shoot center fire at 50 yards, that’s only for rimfire.

Ooops. Just realized this was in the rimfire section. For rimfire, I would say 1/2-3/4 MOA at 50, sub MOA at 100 and maybe 1.5 MOA at 200 with very mild wind.

 

[whatsupdoc]

For a rimfire realistic numbers would be .4 at 50 .9 at 100 and 1.5 at 200.

 

[MarkCZ]

For a rimfire realistic numbers would be .4 at 50 .9 at 100 and 1.5 at 200.

Those groups work good for me in good wind conditions. I don't shoot a lot of groups, I shoot steel. I setup 4", 3", 2' and 1" gongs at 200yds and a Long Gong setup at 300yds 8" ,6", 4". I set up 12" gongs for sighter, then try to run the steel, and see how many times I can hit the small ones.
I would expect sub MOA groups to 200yds most of the time under good wind. I have shot sub MOA out to 400yds under very good condition That is not the norm., but I have done it. Past 200yds it is all about the ammo

 

[oldrifleman]

For a rimfire realistic numbers would be .4 at 50 .9 at 100 and 1.5 at 200.

These would be appropriate.

 

[Csafisher]

Let’s see some of these 1.5” groups at 200 . Definitely doable but not regularly. Certainly not the majority of the time even with good conditions. More like 2moa at 200.

 

[hafejd30]

After shooting rimfire more and watching a ton of videos of guys shooting custom barreled rimfires I’m at the point where I realize the right lot of ammo in the average rifle will hang with or outperform the majority of ammo in a custom. Where a custom with the right lot of ammo will outperform most factory setups

My B14R last time out shot 3-10 shot groups all right at moa at 100 yards. Which I wasn’t sure how good it was at the time but it seems fairly acceptable now

To answer the question though I’d be happy with 1/2 moa with decent ammo at 50 and 1 moa with decent ammo at 100. That’s with SK match/LR match etc.

I personally don’t want to pay stupid high ammo prices for rimfire so I’d be more happy with a rimfire that shot SKLR with several lots at 1 moa more consistent at 100 vs a rimfire that shoots 1/2 moa at 100 but requires ammo that twice as expensive

I don’t compete. I just like shooting long range and have got more into Rimfire in the last few years. One of my B14R’s will be sent for a custom barrel most likely and I’d be satisfied with 1 moa at 100 without unexplained fliers. A lot of this is ammo dependent as well though

I think the .4-50, .9-100 and 1.5 moa at 200 as noted above is a fair expectation. But I wouldn’t want to be limited to the highest price eley or Lapua to achieve that

I should also add this would be the average of a couple 5 shot groups at these distances or 10 shot groups. We’ve all seen the ammo that puts 5 into a dime at 100 yards then changing nothing but the aimpoint on target shoots a 2” group with fliers right next to it from the same magazine. Rimfire is funny like that

 

[hafejd30]

Let’s see some of these 1.5” groups at 200 . Definitely doable but not regularly. Certainly not the majority of the time even with good conditions. More like 2moa at 200.

Assuming he put those numbers in moa. So more like 3”

 

[kyotekiller25]

For me I'd say around 1/2" at 50, 1" at 100, and 3" at 200.

That's what I average anyway with 10 shot groups from a CZ457 with a Bartlein and SK Long Range ammo.

I have never shot a 1.5" 10 shot group at 200. That would be pretty tough to do with anything other than a full blown BR 22 and top tier lot tested ammo I think...

 

[tomme boy]

A full custom purpose built gun...... Most everyone seems to be using factory made guns and just replacing parts as their custom. No one here has ever showed a real benchrest rimfire gun and what they do compared to a put together gun.

So are you building a benchrest or a NRL type? A pure br then take 0.1" off below #'s

0.3" @ 50
0.7" @ 100
don't shoot past that soo can't say.

 

[TubbyT223]

.5” at 50 1” at 100” 2”-4” at 250. That usually what I do to true my data. My RimX holds tighter at 250 for I just use that as a guideline for buddies getting into PRS. If it will hold that it will work for PRS.

 

[justin amateur]

I find that cartridge quality is my problem,
not the rifle.

My expectations are:

center to center measurement
shooting off the bench

0.4 inches at 50 yards
1.3 inches at 100 yards
4 inches at 200 yards

That'd be an entire box of cartridges, 22lr,
on a really good day, with extremely good ammo.

My reality is:

0.6 inches at 50 yards
1.8 inches at 100 yards
4.5 to 6 inches at 200 yards

50 consecutive shots

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Being the rebel of just about every group, I really expect minute of steel. NO this is not a joke or sarcasm. It must be good enough to hit a typical Precision Rifle target 90 to 98 percent of the times when shooting from a solid rest. That would be ammunition limited, not rifle limited.

Typically this is what I like to see. Three shots at 117 yards. It’s good enough, for this Bartlien barreled Vudoo.

 

[Williwaw]

For F Class at 50 yards I need 0.4 inch for forty rounds, 0.3 for a ten shot group.

I just checked the new Anschutz I got last week and it tested sub 0.3 for 50m. Don't know why a top custom build shouldn't match or beat that.

 

[Jeff Kalina]

Custom rifle as in an unlimited, single shot ARA gun? .2 max -5 shot group at 50 yards
NRL/PRS type .4 max -same as above
That is without much wind
No clue on further distances.

 

[justin amateur]

To obtain a fairly accurate calculation of spread
based on results at 50 yards: double the distance gives triple the spread.

So 0.2 at 50 yards, expect 0.6 at 100 yards
and 1.8 inches at 200 yards for 5 consecutive shots.

With 0.4 inches at 50 yards, 1.2 inches at 100 yards
and 3.6 inches at 200 yards under optimum conditions.

Spread isn't a linear progression, it's geometric.
With ballistics it's a curve when plotted on a graph.

 

[beetroot]

I feel like 1moa in the horizontal is entirely possible, even out past 100yards.
Vertical on the other hand, well that's all down to the ammo.

 

[jbell]

A full custom purpose built gun...... Most everyone seems to be using factory made guns and just replacing parts as their custom. No one here has ever showed a real benchrest rimfire gun and what they do compared to a put together gun.

So are you building a benchrest or a NRL type? A pure br then take 0.1" off below #'s

0.3" @ 50
0.7" @ 100
don't shoot past that soo can't say.

Right about here, ish… These would be the absolute max for average group size at 50 yards, I actually expect better with very good ammo (not necessarily stringently lot tested for that rifle) in perfect conditions. At 100 yards 0.7-0.8/0.85 inch is about what I expect. Beyond that I don’t care because to me that proves the rifle is capable and it’s is a matter of finding the best ammo. I am talking in terms of 5 round groups for at least a 30-50 rounds or 10 round groups for 5 groups or so. Something like that.

I have owned several rifles that were able to repeat this over the years, all were shot prone with a bipod and light weight rear bag. For a true Benchrest rifle I would expect better.

I do agree with everything Justin armature has said over the years about groups don’t really matter if they are not centered up, but IMO that is more on the shooter than the rifle. Especially when shooting in a fashion other than pure Benchrest.

For a little more on this, if I have a rifle that no matter what I do will not consistently shoot in the 1/2 MOA range at 50 yards I will either rebarrel it or sell it hard stop.

 

[crossgun]

Rimfire ammo is the limiting factor at distance. I need and expect 1/4" groups at 50 yards. Reality is 3/4"-1" groups at 100 yards. The guys tracking 3" groups at 200 yards are spot on even though I regularly see 1.5"-2" groups there.

I'm looking for lot tested ammo that will produce ES of 30 fps or less for 30-50 round strings. +/- 15 fps from my average MV gets me basically +/- .2 mils. at 200 yds. In the most ideal conditions thats sitting at basically three inches. Inch target on the 200 yd KYL rack is basically bullshit and comes down to having that round that shoots your average FPS, so lot of luck. Reality of rimfire shows its face and you have a miss in the most ideal conditions.

Lots of guys will go by the 80% rule and delete the high and lows speeds from there data I guess so they feel better about their SD and ES. Reality is you never know when you're getting which bullet.

 

[Defender32]

I want to see what it will do on the bench and I want to see a Sub 8-SD and sub 25-ES. Quality ammo is the most important part of the equasion after you have a solid foundation of fundamentals.

Bench groups:
.3 at 50
.7-.8 at 100
sub 2" at 200y 5 shots

I am truly more concerned with what I do positionally with that rifle and ammo combination. This is how we compete and it all needs to work together. 10 shots at 50y & 5 shot groups beyond 50y.
.5-.6 at 50
.8-1" at 100
2.2-2.5 at 200.

I am typically 2.5-2.8 at 200. This is still my positional struggle.

 

[Emerson0311]

To obtain a fairly accurate calculation of spread
based on results at 50 yards: double the distance gives triple the spread.

So 0.2 at 50 yards, expect 0.6 at 100 yards
and 1.8 inches at 200 yards for 5 consecutive shots.

With 0.4 inches at 50 yards, 1.2 inches at 100 yards
and 3.6 inches at 200 yards under optimum conditions.

Spread isn't a linear progression, it's geometric.
With ballistics it's a curve when plotted on a graph.

This is exactly what I see on paper. Of course the group size usually shrinks by 25-30% if the high/low “flyers” are ignored. The bulk of a group at 200 is often right around 2 1/2”. Mean radius to Center might be a more precise measurement.

 

[grauhanen]

What are the current accuracy expectations from a custom rifle group-wise at
50 Yards
100 yards
200 yards
Anything past would be great but we know the wind will play a huge role past 200.

Ten shot groups as a standard. Wind plays a role at 50, a huge role at 100 and more huge beyond. (At 100 a mere 1 mph cross wind will move a bullet about .35".)

At 50 a custom rifle should do sub-.300 (ctc) with good ammo and conditions accounted for.

At 100 a custom should do sub-.900 with good ammo under consistently favorable conditions. With wind unaccounted for all bets are off.

 

[021411]

My standard is 0.3 or better at 50, 0.5-0.7 at 100, 2” or better at 200. That’s realistic for me.

 

[Masojoh]

I expect my match rifles to shoot .2mil vertical groups at 200 yards. I have achieved that with factory guns (two different B14Rs, and one CZ 457 MTR), an Anschutz, two Rimxs with prefit barrels and even two Kidd 10/22s. If I have tested a rifle with my proven ammo - I buy a lot when I find a lot one of my guns likes - and that gun won’t shoot any of the good stuff well, I move it along.

One of the biggest challenges I have worked to deal with is the first round flier / cold bore shot. I’m sure the keyboard warriors would pick apart my testing, so I will just say if you don’t do anything to address that - via bore cap or some other method - you are leaving that first round up to chance.

What I’m saying is - instead of focusing on group size, why don’t we look at rifles that can deliver a first round that is within the SD of a string, versus 2-3x that SD? Just a thought.

Oh, and here is a snapshot of my chrono data that I track. I shoot a lot of eley for historical reasons. But that random lot of Lapua long range was amazing. It was sold out when I realized how awesome it was, or I would have bought a few cases of it!

 

[Williwaw]

What are the current accuracy expectations from a custom rifle group-wise at
50 Yards
100 yards
200 yards
Anything past would be great but we know the wind will play a huge role past 200.

Possibly more relevant, what are Mr. Lott's aspirations/expectations? Not being a smart adze but given your experience, how low can we go?

 

[jbell]

I expect my match rifles to shoot .2mil vertical groups at 200 yards.

Nevermind I'm an idiot...

 

[Emerson0311]

Your expecting 3/4" vertical at 200 yards?

Wouldn’t .2 mils be 3.64cm?

 

[jbell]

Wouldn’t .2 mils be 3.64cm?

Yeah I think my math is way off. I think it's just under 1.5 inches

 

[MarkCZ]

.2 mils is 1.44" at 200yds.

 

[jbell]

.2 mils is 1.44" at 200yds.

Yep my mistake. I should know better than to do math in my brain.

 

[David Lott]

Possibly more relevant, what are Mr. Lott's aspirations/expectations? Not being a smart adze but given your experience, how low can we go?

My goal is to get a repeater in the teens .1999 or 10.7mm for 10 shots at the Lapua test center (I think we are there but the ammo is not). Best 10 shot group has been a .22, with a bunch of .23,.24,.25s we have had a few .75 for 20 shots at 100 yards. We have shot sub 1" 5 shot groups many times at 200 but again I think ammo is still the culprit with good wind conditions. I was just curious what customers have come to expect.

 

[justin amateur]

I can produce small 5 shot groups.
Maintain a single point of aim for 5 shots,
in less than 3 minutes. My problem is
that each 5 shot group is centered in a slightly
different location, relative to the same aimpoint.
By the completion of 10 groups, build the aggregate,
now I'm looking at a total group size
2 or 3 times the average group size.
Outdoors, off the bench, differences in conditions
and shifting cartridge component/assembly patterns
moves those individual groups relative to poa.
I find shooting for score to be a more effective method
of establishing cartridge quality and my ability to judge wind.

 

[David Lott]

I can produce small 5 shot groups.
Maintain a single point of aim for 5 shots,
in less than 3 minutes. My problem is
that each 5 shot group is centered in a slightly
different location, relative to the same aimpoint.
By the completion of 10 groups, build the aggregate,
now I'm looking at a total group size
2 or 3 times the average group size.
Outdoors, off the bench, differences in conditions
and shifting cartridge component/assembly patterns
moves those individual groups relative to poa.
I find shooting for score to be a more effective method
of establishing cartridge quality and my ability to judge wind.

My new heavy-duty 1-piece 100% ball bearing rest will be here in the next week or so, coupled with my Foundation Benchrest hybrid stock should prove interesting for both groups and individual ARA targets. Past attempts left a lot to be desired and the other styles of rest all through shots.

 

[hafejd30]

.

I can produce small 5 shot groups.
Maintain a single point of aim for 5 shots,
in less than 3 minutes. My problem is
that each 5 shot group is centered in a slightly
different location, relative to the same aimpoint.
By the completion of 10 groups, build the aggregate,
now I'm looking at a total group size
2 or 3 times the average group size.
Outdoors, off the bench, differences in conditions
and shifting cartridge component/assembly patterns
moves those individual groups relative to poa.
I find shooting for score to be a more effective method
of establishing cartridge quality and my ability to judge wind.

22 sucks in that regard. Only a 22 can shoot a dime size group. Then move to a target 3” to the right and print another dime size group 2” right of the last POI.

 

[Williwaw]

My goal is to get a repeater in the teens .1999 or 10.7mm for 10 shots at the Lapua test center (I think we are there but the ammo is not). Best 10 shot group has been a .22, with a bunch of .23,.24,.25s we have had a few .75 for 20 shots at 100 yards. We have shot sub 1" 5 shot groups many times at 200 but again I think ammo is still the culprit with good wind conditions. I was just curious what customers have come to expect.

Thanks for the response David. 0.25 for ten shots works for me. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you have 50 and 100m results there to boot. I would be really interested to hear what those same rifles do with sub-optimum ammo. That is, I expect you are quoting results for the best lot tested ... how do they group with an average lot?

 

[BowChamp]

.25" for 25 shots at 50 yds is what I want.

Something like this puts a smile on my face........ 5 shot groups at 50 yds.

 

[Buckhead]

^^^^This right here. Give me a rifle that prints a 5x5 with a .25” average at 50.
100 = 0.7”
200 = 2.5”
I will do the rest.

 

[Jeff Kalina]

Check out What John at LeadFever does with a Savage. Youtube. Amazing!

 

[beetroot]

What I’m saying is - instead of focusing on group size, why don’t we look at rifles that can deliver a first round that is within the SD of a string, versus 2-3x that SD? Just a ththought.

I would love to see some conclusive testing on whether rifles can reduce ES/SDs or of you are forever a slave to lot testing.

If a particular rifle/barrel combination was guaranteed to give a lower SD and be less sensitive to ammo I would 100% buy that over pure accuracy.

Dropping from .5" groups to .3" at 50yards, or 1" down to .8" might be a selling point for benchrest, but for PRS/NRL I don't think it's that important, considering guys happily give up pure accuracy for reliability.

 

[justin amateur]

I don't believe that ammunition can fix a rifle with issues.
Also, no rifle can fix ammunition that has issues.

Uniformly well made cartridges, with tight muzzle velocities,
will produce the best results from any well built rifle.
If it produced admirable results from one of my rifles,
it will do so from all of my rifles. Differences in results
are not due to rifle preference, but to variations
in cartridge quality, as each box is sent downrange.
No two cartridges are identical. No two boxes are identical.
Differences in results are due to differences in cartridges.
Components and assembly tolerances change
moment to moment during manufacture.
Welcome to the assembly line lottery.