Nobody shoots 22Lr .3-.4 at 100 yds [ETA- "consistently"] that's honestly just BS
Customer Accuracy Expectations
- Thread starter David Lott
- Start date
I totally agree. My most consistent average at 100 is .70, I know some that would beat that but our club champ can get to .64 regularly in his 1 piece rest.
I am from a centerfire long range benchrest background. In centerfire we shoot 5 shot groups with 5 group AGG. for results. I shot 3 IBS world records in 600yds. I was the first to shoot below 1" with a 0.749" Light gun record. Not bragging, just to let guys know, I know what I am doing.
I started shooting Rimfire long range about 5 years ago. I use the same 5 shot groups aggs for testing. I have been jumped on about 5 shot groups, not being enough rounds for testing. I'm in no way saying 10 shot or more are not a good way to test, it's not for me.
David I know what you are trying to do, with your 10 shot groups at a test range, where you have no conditions, or shooter error. You are just testing the gun, with each ammo. I know the ammo is our limit.
I am asking why in rimfire, how did we get to groups 10, 20, 50 shots? David this question is not so much for you , but for the group. Rimfire is a BEAST compared centerfire. Gun handling is the main issue in opening group, any inconsistency will change the group. Wind that you can not feel can open groups. Will this effect a 10 or 20 groups more or not. For these reasons alone, is why i shoot 5 shot groups.
Are we expecting too much from a round that will walk around the bullseye all day long, but still shooting great groups. And can shoot great in the morning and so so in the afternoon of the same day. Then the dropouts at long range. Making you say what the hell was that. Sometimes you just can't tell what the next round is going to do. Rimfire is a Beast, but I love it. I sold my centerfire and got more rimfires.
David keep up the good work, you guns are great.
Just reminding that 10 fps ES amounts to 1" vertical at 200Y if life were perfect.
Also that wind affects the vertical too. Ask the worlds top 22rf 50Y BR shooters if this is so. I know some of the worlds highest level N50 BR shooters using state of the art pcp airguns. One in particular watches his flags and is constantly aiming slightly higher or lower to get more X's.
This is a recent target of his at 50M. ES around 12 fps. He'll probably win the Worlds this year in Finland.
Also that wind affects the vertical too. Ask the worlds top 22rf 50Y BR shooters if this is so. I know some of the worlds highest level N50 BR shooters using state of the art pcp airguns. One in particular watches his flags and is constantly aiming slightly higher or lower to get more X's.
This is a recent target of his at 50M. ES around 12 fps. He'll probably win the Worlds this year in Finland.
I can only answer this for myself. I shoot F Class for score ... 40 shots at 50 yards. ARA is 25 shots for score. So we know what size the composite 40 or 25 shot group has to be in order not to drop points. If ones goal is small groups go with five per group. You'll get more 'good' groups that way. If your goal is accuracy then shot for score and keep track of your composite group size requirements for your discipline.
I personally don’t need 10 or 20 shot groups. The more shots is however a better representation of the rifles actual accuracy
10 rounds with a .22 are easy compared to a centerfire for a few reasons
1) I usually have a box of 500 rounds so it’s easy to shoot more
2) I don’t have to reload the .22 which intrigues me to shoot more
3) I don’t struggle fighting barrel heat and mirage from my barrel or suppressor like I do with centerfire
If you’re shooting a discipline requiring a lot of shots like fclass then it pays to run the whole box and get an accurate representation of your capabilities. Especially if you’re preparing to drop a bunch of money on a tested lot of ammo
10 rounds with a .22 are easy compared to a centerfire for a few reasons
1) I usually have a box of 500 rounds so it’s easy to shoot more
2) I don’t have to reload the .22 which intrigues me to shoot more
3) I don’t struggle fighting barrel heat and mirage from my barrel or suppressor like I do with centerfire
If you’re shooting a discipline requiring a lot of shots like fclass then it pays to run the whole box and get an accurate representation of your capabilities. Especially if you’re preparing to drop a bunch of money on a tested lot of ammo
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I would think shooting 10 shots or more per group indoors with no conditions is more about proving the ammo than the rifle.
My .25" 25 shot group has to be outside in conditions. This also means the shooter has to be able to read the conditions of that day.
The target I posted above was shot outside during a small rain front passing through. Except for one group, I had 3 to 5 different holds for each group on that target, quite often holding well out past the red circle. Only had one shot on that target that I wanted back.....being bullheaded I rushed the shot knowing it had a chance of not being good. LOL!!!
It was also shot with the only 50rd. box of that lot# I ever had. Another shooter gave it to me that day to try out.
Edited to add.....My 25 shot group is a composite group of 25 individual shot, fired one shot per bull for total score.
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We’ve been through this lol….. 5 shot groups vary in quite a bit. What some people say is a flyer is just a round within the actual dispersion population. This is why you can’t trust doing tuner testing or lot testing or even setting a zero with just 5 shots. Unless of course you overlay multiple groups to a larger aggregate. My guns that average in the low .3s at 50 will print 5 shot groups ranging from a ~.15 to a ~.45.
There is a good explanation of group size analysis with regard to the number of shots in a group here http://the-long-family.com/group_size_analysis.htm
Group size represents the repeatability of the rifle and ammo.
Unlike good hand loaded CF ammo, no matter the name on the box with .22LR shooters are at the mercy of the vagaries of the production line. In essence, the more shots in a group, the better the picture of the shooting characteristics of a box of ammo.
With good .22LR ammo most rounds will shoot have a POI at or very near the POA (when they are the same). But some shots will strike further away from the center, with some being further and further away. Below is a simulation of the POI of 250 shots (taken from the source linked above).
The more points of impact that are included the more representative they are of the performance of the rifle/ammo.
Even though I can quote an extreme spread 'group size' I'm really paying attention to Mean Radius, CEP 95 and SD X and SD Y ... based on a sample size of 40 minimum.
For ARA it is 25 single shot for a composite group for 25 rounds. The 40 rounds for F-Class is a composite group also. Both of these you are trying to hit a X. The composite is telling what group could be, but it is not 25 round or 40 round group fired at a single point. You are shooting your course of fire. I have shot IBS Score Centerfire and reduced yardage Centerfire F-Class, I know how it works.
I don't see how that invalidates my group analysis. I of course don't hold center for every shot ... that would be a weather report, not an assessment of system precision and accuracy.
I don't just shoot a 5 shot group, I shoot many. You say your gun averages in the low .3's at 50 yds and 5 shot ranging .15" to .45" . Average is an AGG. Just like I am doing. Now that is funny.
I'm a long range steel shooter, I zero at 50 yds, get my ES and Tune for my vertical at 200yds and 300yds and my dope down range, and shoot steel.
Would be exceptional except it doesn't exist in the real world. Double that group size at 100 consistently from a bipod/bag is exceptional IMO, and I'm thrilled when I find a lot that regularly shoots .7/.8 @ 100.
I'm not invalidating your analysis. I said you are not shooting a 25 shot group, you shooting your card. You have to hold for your conditions. your analysis is good. That is the score shooting. I'm a long range steel shooter I hold for wind all the time. I go for hit %
What is funny is that you can’t see the point or don’t understand basic stats lol. Average is not the same as Agg. Keep drinking the koolaid lol
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Average is the total of your groups divided by the # of groups. In shooting an AGG is the total of your groups divided by the # of groups. Maybe I'm not shooting AGG's, I must be averaging my group, just like you. You need to explain how you came uo with your Average, and how that is different from a AGG.
This is just me not being that educated at max accuracy at 100, but wouldn't 0.3-0.4" consistently at 100 be well beyond what even in the indoor test centers usually get under the best possible conditions? I feel like typically their best monthly 100m groups are in the 17-20mm range (outside to outside) for 10 shots, usually 20mm+ for 20 shots. Lapua's test centers post their best groups monthly on facebook and I'm not sure I ever saw anything under 15-16mm and those results span test centers in Germany, Ohio, and Arizona facilities. That has to represent hundreds of high end precision rigs tested every month. If you subtract 6mm for the bullet dia. to do center to center groups that would suggest their absolute best groups they ever test are barely breaking 0.4" and their typical monthly best group is ~0.6". Granted those groups are happening at ~110 yards so there's certainly a bit to be gained being 10 yards closer. That's with the barreled action removed from the stock and put into a bedded block placed in a shooting machine rest that's mounted on a concrete block isolated from the rest of the building foundation....
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This is pretty typical of my rifle with Lapua SLR.Let’s see some of these 1.5” groups at 200. Definitely doable but not regularly. Certainly not the majority of the time even with good conditions. More like 2moa at 200.
Average is self explanatory. But say you shoot 5 groups of 5. You may have an average group size of .3. But the total 25shot group size (agg) is say a .5. You’d overlay all 25shots to make one group. I do apologize because aggregate may not technically be the right term as agg means the total sum of a dataset I believe. I’ve heard it called agg, composite, and total group size…. Anyway, I encourage you to shoot 5 or 6 groups and use an app to find the x,y of each shot in relation to the POA. You can use excel to calculate the total group size. This is another reason why I call Bs on the toooner tests I’ve seen.
Or you can shoot a 25 shot group and realize it’s waaaay bigger than your 5 shot average. And not necessarily because of the shooter or environmentals. It’s just the natural dispersion of the system. The benefit of shooting smaller group sizes and combining them is to be able to also measure mean radius. Which is more meaningful.
I hate to tell some people this but I have to. Just because your gun shoots a 0.4" group at 50 yds does NOT mean it will shoot a 0.8" group at 100yds. I wish people would STOP saying this.
I have a center fire that shoots consistent 5 rd groups of 0.25"at 100yds. But it has NEVER shot a 0.5" or even a 0.75" group at 200yds. It just does not work that way. I have yet to see in person someone that can do it like everyone says it happens.
I have a center fire that shoots consistent 5 rd groups of 0.25"at 100yds. But it has NEVER shot a 0.5" or even a 0.75" group at 200yds. It just does not work that way. I have yet to see in person someone that can do it like everyone says it happens.
I use the SD X and SD Y to confirm my tuner settings. If wind conditions are reasonably light SD X and SD Y will be approximately equal with a good tune. At least nearer equal than untuned. Again these are 40 shot data sets. I assume this addresses your concern.
It is enlightening to look at the difference between SD X and SD Y and then calculate the SD MV that it would take to create it. That can be compared to the chrono SD MV.
But in the end it still always comes down to missed wind calls.
On my Harrells tuner that would be about $15 bucks times about 400 clicks= $$$$!
Yeah no, I am at 5 shoots per setting until get to what seems like the best 2-3 then probably 15-20 to pick my spot.
You are being way too hard on yourself but here goes ...
I use OnTarget to generate the analysis. Targets get scanned, impacts are located and numbers are crunched. The result are some metrics which are much more robust and definitive in evaluating how things are going. Mean Radius(MR) and Standard Deviation MR are a couple. For confirming tuner settings I look at the SD X(horizontal distance from POA) and SD Y(vertical). I assume MV variations on average (there are exceptions) produce vertical in excess of the nominal horizontal dispersion. So the difference between SD X and SD Y will be minimized by a tuner setting that is producing positive compensation.
To answer Csafisher's question ... no, not 40 rounds per tuner setting. My technique for identifying candidate settings is a whole separate process that usually points to three possibilities which need to be confirmed. The initial process utilizes 40 five shot groups shot over two days. If all that sounds like a lot of work/ammo to anyone then you probably don't need to do it. I'm shooting at least a case of each lot and a few days and half a brick is the price I pay for confidence in my tuner setting.
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That's interesting, there used to be an archery software a couple decades ago called OnTarget, and it looks almost identical of what I remember and still strait out of a windows 95 interface 
50y sub .3 if mag fed, sub .2 if single loaded.
100y and 200y, I don’t really have enough experience with non-factory rifles to speak definitely. My Anschutz barreled Sako has fired numerous .5 groups @ 100m, so I can only guess a factory Anschutz would perform that well or better. Drawing on that, I’d expect a bit better from a custom build. I haven’t done a lot of testing at 200, preferring to play at 300-400(shooting to the limits of the range I have access to
), but have a 40XB that didn’t seem to have issues holding 1” at 200 with a bunch of us watching my friend driving it. Again, that’s perhaps an exceptional factory gun, I dunno, it came from the CMP. You already know my Bergara had no issues shooting sub 3” groups at 300y, and at least one fellow who didn’t believe it possible later posted his own groups far tighter from a custom Rim-X, so there’s that. Attitude affects how we shoot, and not everyone has a test bed to eliminate human input, thus we have good days and bad. I think if you believe something isn’t possible, you may not see the best results. I believe ammo today isn’t what it was even 20 years ago, but I believe rifles are far better. If the ammo can catch back up, maybe the grand days of exceptional mid grade fodder will get more of us out there tripping triggers!
I actually believe that current high end ammo is much better. They have improved bullet shape and the upper tier is more consistent. Back 20-30 years ago 100yrd accuracy was nowhere near as good as it is now.50y sub .3 if mag fed, sub .2 if single loaded.
100y and 200y, I don’t really have enough experience with non-factory rifles to speak definitely. My Anschutz barreled Sako has fired numerous .5 groups @ 100m, so I can only guess a factory Anschutz would perform that well or better. Drawing on that, I’d expect a bit better from a custom build. I haven’t done a lot of testing at 200, preferring to play at 300-400(shooting to the limits of the range I have access to
I believe ammo today isn’t what it was even 20 years ago, but I believe rifles are far better. If the ammo can catch back up, maybe the grand days of exceptional mid grade fodder will get more of us out there tripping triggers!
The OnTarget archery software was the cat's meow. Was very easy to make sight tapes out to 125yds.That's interesting, there used to be an archery software a couple decades ago called OnTarget, and it looks almost identical of what I remember and still strait out of a windows 95 interface
