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Advanced Marksmanship dealing with heartbeat

howdydoit

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 15, 2009
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MO
Im having trouble while in the prone position ( well in sitting position too). I shoot at my personal range and at 100 yards I dont see any effect, but at 300yards it starts to become a problem.
Ive got NPA, im in my NRP and then my crosshairs jump off the taget verticaly. Ive always had a very pronounced heartbeat but its never been this bad. years ago while in the Marine Corps, I could feel the same problem while in the sitting position, but it was not so pronounced. Im shooting off a pack with no rear bag. Ill try a rear bag next time out to see if the helps.


Is there some way to control or reduce this effect?
Howdy
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

Prone, with a bipod, I've never noticed much heartbeat. Maybe your rifle's too far out of your shoulder pocket and contacting flesh instead of your collarbone. You might try being aware of the contact your cheek is exerting, as well.

I don't shoot prone very often but I hope that helps. I could be wrong, though.
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How good of physical shape are you in? </div></div>

+1 physical conditioning a huge plus along with diet.
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

If you have a good position of your body with a good npa then the pattern your crosshairs make because of your heartbeat should be fairly predictable. You should be able to watch the small bounce of the reticle and in between beats your crosshairs should go back to centered. If you concentrate on the pattern you can time your trigger squeeze to right when your heart rests. Hope this helps.
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

I too have a very pronounced heartbeat. watching my chest you would think i have an enlarged heart.

I had a gastric bypass back in march of 2009 and have now lost over 150 lbs. I used to be able to overcome the heartbeat with good positioning and I really think the extra 150 lbs of fat made it easier to be honest. Now, when sitting on the bench I can see the cross hair moving about 1/4 mil and I basically time my shot which sets me up for shitty trigger control. I try to dry fire 3-5 times before each shot to get a feel for the trigger and to keep working the muscle memory.

Prone on the bipod is a whole different story. If i load the pod correctly, I end up laying on a part of my body i never knew existed - i have a very pronounced xyphoid process now (bony protrusion, actually cartilage, right smack dab in the center of my chest at the point where my ribs and abs meet) and it HURTS to lay on it for an extended period of time. I end up laying to one side a little and this is also poor form but I somehow make it work. I'm not a great shot, but all i can offer is the things I do to help out...

no caffiene, keep the sugar down, eat good (lots of protien and fiber, low carbs) and keep the breathing deep and strong. when I notice my heart really thumping, i close my eyes and go to a happy place while breathing exercises are done. (in thru mouth for 4 counts, hold 4, out mouth for 8, repeat 3-4 times) I can see diminished frequency and magnitude after doing so.
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

Thanks guys,

LOL my physical condition is not what it used to be. So Ill work on that more along with everyones suggestions.

thanks again.
howdy
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: howdydoit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Is there some way to control or reduce this effect?
Howdy</div></div>

Yes, a knife to the chest but it only works once...
wink.gif
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: howdydoit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Is there some way to control or reduce this effect?
Howdy</div></div>

Yes, a knife to the chest but it only works once...
wink.gif


</div></div>

okay everyones suggestions except this one. lol
 
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Re: dealing with heartbeat

I've always heard to predict the rhythm and try firing between beats. I think comfort is also a predicter, the less you're using your muscles to adjust, the better off. Sorry, I'm not very experienced but this is what I've noticed.
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

If you are feeling your heartbeat, you are either not breaking at the bottom of the breathing cycle, or you are gripping the rifle too tight.

When there too much air in the lungs the heartbeat will bounce off the lungs, so you have to break at the bottom of the cycle.


Having too tight a grip also raises the heart rate and is transferred to the rifle.
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having too tight a grip also raises the heart rate </div></div>

I've found this to be true in all areas of my life
crazy.gif
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

Mental.... (Long post, maybe worth the read. Unlikely)

I grew up hand loading and testing loads. I had a rifle (read "not bench rest") that would shoot -sub- .1 (tenth) moa groups with good conditions and me on a good day from bench & bags.

Loading and shooting that rifle taught me two things, one of which applies to you...

Perhaps a somewhat detailed background to qualify my "Mental" experiences.

I grew up under a former USMC father whose past time was competitive shooting; I was started in Trap (shotgun) shooting first. At age 7 is when I first stood alone, on the line with men, at my position holding a loaded, dirt cheap .410 bolt action shotgun. It was just the local guys at the local club who knew me & were mostly convinced I'd NOT shoot them and maybe would shoot -A- clay target out of 25, which I did, occasionally. I'll never forget how cool I was when dad "graduated" me up to a 12 gauge Beretta auto. It made no difference he had to load the loads so light they would only crack the bolt open 1/4" or so. It made no difference I was so little after half a match or so I was too tired to be able to pull the bolt back with my little hands. I was not embarrassed either I had to resort to putting the butt of the gun on the ground and open/lock the bolt to the rear by pressing my foot on the bolt handle. The gun/muzzle was taller than I was too. All that mattered was I was cool beans- I was shooting a freaking 12 man!

My father in many areas was a mind boggling brilliant man. And others areas, well, anyway... My first "gun" was a Red Ryder style BB gun, except he ground the rear site off before he ever let me launch the first BB- to FORCE me to learn proper mounting of the stock, cheek weld, head and eye alignment, Trigger tease etc. Once I got those things down, it's amazing what a determined kid can hit with a rear sightless, crude BB gun.

I feel it more brilliance to have started me in shotgun sports. Some 28 years later I look back and agree with him, and the various military sniper books I have read (Gunny Hathcock's book comes to mind) in when looking to interview soldiers for sniper school they especially liked to see a history of shotgun shooting. The essence of shotgun shooting, like I'm told of Golf, Tennis etc is mental. In trap shooting, you have 5 stations you shoot from in a given 25 rounds all repeated 4 times for a 100 target match. And the target thrower throws the targets in one of 5 specific angles. So it's FACT- if a man has hit JUST ONE target, presented from all of the 5 angles, from the 5 firing positions, then he can hit every target thrown, every time and be the world champ. No, you laugh, but the only guy to beat to hold the world title is yourself, if you have reliable shooting plunder. Enter "the mental program"

So once I have hit every target presented in trap shooting,(ball in tennis, tramp in golf, nail in carpentry, etc.) I can hit EVERY target presented in Trapshooting, EVERy time, so long as I clear my mind, have 100% faith and have filtered all doubts & negatives out of my mind for
-this- coming shot.

Dad & I spoke of & worked on and strengthened our mental programs. We'd get in a mental zone prior to shooting the first target that was as if we had seen the future, of us shooting perfectly, bringing home the trophies, feeling the euphoria in the victory etc. and exceedingly more times than not, our mental program's projection of the future, would pan out precisely in the hours/days to come at the awards dinner.

Early on we damn near won 1st & 2nd places overall at the Tennessee state shoot with our "mental programs" while competeing together in the "Parent & child team /class" (Henry Horton State park, American Trap Shooting Assoc. ["ATA"] "Trap & Field" Magazine, September 1991, page28- thats me with my "dirty sanchez" mustache, 16 years old and dad in the photo at the very top right of the page. The caption reads " ~tresmon~ jr. & senior paced parent-child duos in the main singles, and ~tresmon~ junior went on to take home 6 other trophies-three junior, two yardage and one D class doubles.) for the entire shoot with the scores we put up in the "parent & child category" and I was a wet behind the ears pup. I still have the ATA magazine article and pics.

My trapshooting career started with that .410, and ended with my having won myself a place on the TN junior trap team, and a potential tryout with the US team the following year if it went as well as the past year.

I had a best little buddy who's dad (Former "old school" USN SeaBee) started him out in NRA Junior program with Indoor small bore as well as (service rifle) high power.
It was with this friend & his dad that I got caught up into high power & precision rifle shooting. Hence my adaptation of my mental program to the rifle shot.

Enter "mental program & the heart beat."

The best task I learned with my mental program was heart control. The .1 moa rifle I spoke of was what I feel like was the best success I ever had with my mental program. When I got the load perfected in that rifle as well as the "rifle shooting" format of my mental program... I could pause my heart beat. I do not care if you believe me. I could TOTALLY STOP my heart beat, for a shockingly long duration of a time. A 16 mississippi count was about all that was worth anything as muscle fatigue from depleated O2 levels stared causing problems by that point, +/- a few seconds either way. But a 7-10 missippi was a no brainer. And that's PLENTY of time+++ to squeeze off a perfectly executed shot.

I have proved to doctors and nurses in the past as have the upper echelon (I read) of meditation experts that at-will the heart rate can be far reduced. I'm the only person i know of that has ever claimed "stopped" -though obviously for very short durations in the overall grand scheme of things.

So there I would be with handloads I had made as perfect as I humanly could, with a highly capable rifle on a cement bench on good bags.

I'd be over the rifle hovering on the stock with my mental program up and running. Everything is calm, serene, euphoric. From here it is hard to explain in text. It's as if my entire being, was mental. My existence, was mental only- as if their had never been a tangible physical part of my past or present, or me- my body. Like anything and everything that was every me, size, stature, ability, intelligence was & only had existed in thought. And that thought- ALL of me was tranquilly pouring across the top of the stock, delicately and wholly through the cross hairs like a leisure laser into the center of the POAim which became a bullet hole. Then my "whole existence" was the leisure laser trickling over the top of the stock, through the cross hair pouring through the bullet hole of the target making sure not to brush the edges of the hole/paper. Nothing else in all eternity existed except the cross hair & all of me pouring through that bullet hole, trigger squeeze and heart.

I found that with concentrating on my heart within my mental program that in time it would actually slow down, and literally stop, or pause.
Again hard to explain in text but it would be something like: [I will use underscore marks _ to illustrate where normal beats should have been, but my heart was no longer beating in this mental shooting cycle.}

beat,beat.beat,beat. beat-beat. beat.....beat. beat........THump....THUMP! _,_._,_. _,_. (BANG!)_,_._,_. _,_.(following through the shot)_,_. _,_. THUMP!(heart resumes), beat,beat,beat,beat,beat. beat,beat. beat,beat. beat,beat.

I never knew why, and to be honest it was a little unnerving but the last few beats prior to the stop or pause of the rythm was HARSH. As was the start back up beat.

So we all hear what an amazing tool the mind is blah blah blah, and I'm actually a pretty conservative person. Never been much for Zen bull crap. Heck, I can hardly stand Brian Eno's stuff for all the zen bull crap plastered all over the forum. But maybe I'm actually using my own zen bull crap as I fell into it incidentally, or that is me & dad. Let's not overthink it, I'm a conservative.

But Learning to shoot in a meditative state can only be a good thing. With what little I know I can teach common folk to drop their heart rate a minimum of 15-20 bpm, for a *short* duration of time pretty quick, after I taught them basic meditation and thats with them keeping their meditative trigger tuned up. (It's like programming a switch in your mind to instantly drop into a serene/euphoric state of conscious.)

So anywho these statements are absolute fact. I'm home sick and have nothing better to do than type, so FWIW, enjoy. These techniques, and having a really good shooting rifle and hand loading knowledge is what got me to my first " .0" " group. My first .0" group measured .097" @ 100, and I was just barely old enough to drive yet. My all time best ever group I have fired was .092", center to center, with a stopped heart. {cut me some slack, I'm a poor boy and no longer sponsored by the attorney. I have not owned a single,premium, hand built custom rifle, EVER, except for my AR.)

The other thing this all taught me? It taught me burn out. When a bench rest group does not go into a .0_ _" hole or you do not shoot 100 straight in trap, or you do not "clean" your NRA target and you call it a (enter a whole lot of 4 letter words) bad day at the range, it's time to go back to THOUGHTLESS "plinking" and enjoy shooting, period.

I encourage you all to develop your own mental program. I use it when shooting everything that has sights. (slow fire anyway) I took my bow shooting from good to shooting one arrow into the back of another (called a "Robin Hood") frequently and a "triple hood" twice by running my mental program.

So wether you believe all this or no, I promise if you can really,really,really, REALLY really, really relax when your at the rifle new accomplishments in your shooting will come quickly. Just remember notto loose your bowels.

Tres








 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

Although I keep in shape, exercise frequently and pass my annual physicals with flying colors I suffer from a very low pulse.
....to a point where I can't even get a reading with the blood-pressure machines. I'm happy that my reticle pic is as steady as it gets.
...so I just have to worry about the other stuff.
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sosicmcise</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PT YO DAG-GONE BODY DEVIL DAWG!!!

Musta lost yo mind!</div></div>

+1 hahaha

I've been looking into these PowerLung things, apparently they can help you out with deeper breathing if you can't get around much as it is. But then again... the quote above...
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

I bought one of the Powerlung things, all it did was dry out my mouth and throat. Felt like a waste of money to me.
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

A lot of theory and lifestyle advice later, I gotta chime in with the simple- bones, sturdy "locked" positions, cement, bipod, rests - these should be your stock in trade. If your heartbeat is influencing your point of aim, you're likely not doing something right from a position standpoint. There are probably a million different possibilities, especially as everyone's body is built differently. But here's a suggestion for you- grab any rifle (preferably the one you like to shoot
smile.gif
), tape onto the stock a cheapo laser pointer from any drugstore (should run $5-$10 max), pointed in the same direction as the bore. Rest the rifle down on the ground on front and rear rests. Don't touch it. The laser is now obviously rock steady on the wall. Now get prone and start getting into position one step at a time - first just place your supporting hand. Note activity of laser. Now get behind the rifle. Note activity of laser. So and and so forth until you are completely in position. At some point the laser will begin to jump with your heartbeat, and that should help identify the culprit. Then spend all the time in the world reading forums, google image searching for nra prone, etc. etc. etc., trying out different positions and variations until you can do this full exercise without having the laser jump.

I just came up with this exercise, but it should be spot on in both identifying your weak point and finding a solution.
 
Re: dealing with heartbeat

Sense I kind of like my heartbeat, I use a heavy leathe shooting coat w/heavy sweat shirts underneith.

Works

In hot areas, as in Shooting the WP Wilson National Guard Championships in Arkansas in August, I use to pack the coat with ice before I moved to the firing line.