Dehumidifying a Gun Safe Properly --Suggestions?

[Strykervet]

So one vault has a no hole and just desiccant. The other has desiccant and an 18" Golden Rod for a roughly 72x36x29 inch interior. The small vault packed full of ammo and mags accumulates almost no water. The big vault with the rod AND the desiccant accumulates a cup of water or so every week or two.

By running the rod and desiccant, am I making a condition ripe for water to be pulled into the safe? Should I use one or the other, or is both appropriate, ie, is my safe dryer for using both? Or just one or the other? And which is best, the rod or the desiccant (or both)?

Looking for answers from folks with years of experience storing this way and answers from folks on here with engineering and physics experience with thermal properties, heat exchange and how moisture plays into all of that.

Thanks.

 

[PDXGS]

Sounds like the fullness/displacement of the small vault is working in its favor while the larger safe has more unoccupied air space- hence more humidity.
Where, as in what room in the house, are these located? Is it on concrete? Any idea what the humidity level is in the house?
Like you, I have two safes in my basement. One full and the other, larger one, not so full. I use a silica bead dehumidifier in the larger safe. This unit is made by Remington and can be plugged into an outlet overnight and recharged/dehydrated.
It has a window into the silica bed and changes color when saturated and in need of plugging in ( outside of the safe).
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/59...esiccant-dehumidifier-protects-100-cubic-feet
You want to remove water vapor in the air within the safe. You can do this by increasing the temperature, like with a Golden Rod. Or, you can use a desiccant that binds the water vapor.
Either way, you should try and seal up the safe as well as possible from air leaks and keep it shut.
I prefer silica gel bead beds over the ingle use crystal traps-which can be messy.
For The DIY types, you can buy silica gel beads from online sources and sew them into a pillow case. This can be warmed in a low oven for a few hours to recharge/desiccate the hydrated gel beads.
Here's a link to a source of various desiccants:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#desiccants/=slszak

 

[flounderv2]

Just use desiccant in the right quantity for the volume of the safe. The golden rod will just keep air circulating in the safe which is not good. It will heat the internal air and as the hot air rises it will exit the top of the safe and draw cooler air in from the bottom which is where your getting the extra humidity from.

Also, storing ammo, powder or primers in a safe is typically a NO-NO.

 

[Hairball]

I have three safes and while I am not an engineer I will throw my 2 cents in:

The issue you are having is caused by two factors, where you live and what you are using to take the water out of your safe. As you live in Washington the humidity/moisture levels are extremely high so you are already fighting an uphill battle to keep the moisture out of the safe. While a golden rod works great in drier climates, you have too much moisture in the air for the rod to be effective. The rod is not designed to eliminate humidity in a safe, heat rods are used to raise the interior temp of the safe and in doing so, raise the dew point inside the safe at which water vapor forms and sticks to whatever you have in there. As the rod can only get so hot, the natural levels of humidity are more than the rod can cover.

You basically have two options, increase the temp inside the safe to further raise the dew point or increase the amount of desiccant that you use in the safe to trap water vapor. I live in a higher desert region in SOCAL and our humidity is often below 30 percent and more often in single digits so a rod works great down here. Also keep in mind that anything you have in the safe that draws and traps water vapor, like paper and other porous materials is going to add to the problem. Another issue for you to consider is where you have the safe located. While most people put safes in the garage, these locations are subject to wide temperature shifts as the garage heats and cools throughout the day. You may consider moving the safe to an indoor location that you can maintain a more constant temp that will help you control the dew point inside the safe. Check the humidity levels where you have the safe now and compare those to where you may place the safe inside and in your part of the world you should see a big difference JMHO.

 

[Joea132]

I keep a dehumidifier running in my basement of my house (raised ranch). I set it to 35% and it has a pump with a hose going to a sink drain. Inside my safe I keep one of the blue bead dehumidifiers for closets. Being that I regulate the room itself, I only have to recharge the bead dehumidifier every other month or so. I store powder and primers inside the safe and whatever I have opened outside on my bench.

 

[Hairball]

I am not a fan off keeping powder and primers inside a safe. I keep mine in a gym locker and each bin is labeled for the powder/primer/bullets/loaded rounds that each one holds. These are nice as they are vented and allow expanding gases to easily escape without too much of an issue. While its not a full on flamable locker, it does the trick and keeps the stuff out of general sight and away from taking up room inside my safes.

 

[Strykervet]

Sorry haven't gotten back, my back has been acting up and I've been out for a bit.

I should have been more clear. I have a locker for primers and powder --not trying to blow up the house by mistake. Small one just has very costly factory ammo. There's smoke and fire on both as well as security, UL listed, multiples, backup comms, etc., etc. Nice having been an alarm tech once! But the UL listing limits what I can do to them regarding conversions and work.

I understand the thermodynamics of the situation, I'm just trying to see what simple commercial solutions are working the best for everyone. I've considered putting in a second golden rod in the top in order to generate a more even temperature within and reduce circulation. I'd still use the dessicant I guess, since by virtue of it's hydration I'd be able to tell if it's bringing in more water... But I don't know if that's the issue or if it's getting trapped when I open the door, and which solution is best --tried and true.

On concrete on an aluminum plate in a sealed garage which has insulated security doors and will eventually be insulated and dehumidified (thus rectifying the problem for good I hope). But I'd still like it as dry as possible inside.

Yay or nay on the dual golden rod/dessicant?

Thanks, have a good 4th!

 

[Pinecone]

I have three safes and while I am not an engineer I will throw my 2 cents in:

The issue you are having is caused by two factors, where you live and what you are using to take the water out of your safe. As you live in Washington the humidity/moisture levels are extremely high so you are already fighting an uphill battle to keep the moisture out of the safe. While a golden rod works great in drier climates, you have too much moisture in the air for the rod to be effective. The rod is not designed to eliminate humidity in a safe, heat rods are used to raise the interior temp of the safe and in doing so, raise the dew point inside the safe at which water vapor forms and sticks to whatever you have in there. As the rod can only get so hot, the natural levels of humidity are more than the rod can cover.

You basically have two options, increase the temp inside the safe to further raise the dew point or increase the amount of desiccant that you use in the safe to trap water vapor. I live in a higher desert region in SOCAL and our humidity is often below 30 percent and more often in single digits so a rod works great down here. Also keep in mind that anything you have in the safe that draws and traps water vapor, like paper and other porous materials is going to add to the problem. Another issue for you to consider is where you have the safe located. While most people put safes in the garage, these locations are subject to wide temperature shifts as the garage heats and cools throughout the day. You may consider moving the safe to an indoor location that you can maintain a more constant temp that will help you control the dew point inside the safe. Check the humidity levels where you have the safe now and compare those to where you may place the safe inside and in your part of the world you should see a big difference JMHO.

Slight correction. The dew point is the dew point, based on the amount of water in the air. Things like a Golden Rod raise the AIR TEMPERATURE, well above the dew point to avoid any condensation. They do not change the dew point. Definition of the dew point is the temperature that the air becomes 100% saturated with water vapor. Warm air has a higher capacity for water vapor. The do lower the RELATIVE HUMIDITY. As RH is a % of the maximum amount of water vapor that is present. At the dew point, the RH is 100%.

Desiccants remove moisture from the air and thus lower the dew point.

 

[Strykervet]

Yeah, but what's working best for everyone? I know shit gets stored long term with dessicants and I know they work VERY well when sealed in the right amount just on their own, so...

That and the rod SHOULD work fine, no?

BTW, the rod I got is 18" and is supposed to be sufficient for more cubic feet than my vault holds. I can get another though if necessary.

 

[Strykervet]

But I'm not looking forward to going through 1000lbs of this shit every fall/winter/spring here. It's dry season here now, but that won't last long.

 

[BurnOut]

Do you have electrical power in the safe? I run a combination of an active solution (Eva-Dry 1100 Petite Dehumidifier) in the middle of the safe on a shelf, and a passive solution (Eva-Dry 500 Mini-Dehumidifier) at the top on a shelf.

I am located in the Dallas area, and my safe is inside the house. I am in and out of the safe a few times a week (read: air exchange), and have to "recharge" the passive unit probably once every 6 or so weeks. The active unit only collects any volume worth mentioning if I neglect to recharge the passive unit.

 

[Strykervet]

Yeah, it's got power and security and fire. But I can't use anything that isn't listed for the application, and I'm having a bitch of a time even finding that out at the moment. I figured the manufacturer's would know, but I'm waiting on a UL engineer to get back to me at the moment. I don't want to damage the insurance rating of this vault. I'm not so sure it's a good idea to use rechargeable batteries inside of a confined space, but I could be wrong on that (UL and insurance-wise). I just don't know.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

My opinion is that a Golden Rod and a rechargeable desiccant like the Remington branded ones are a great way to combat the humidity. I live in AZ so I only need to recharge my desiccant once every two months or so even though I go into the safe several times a week. In other environments you will likely have to do it more.

 

[Pinecone]

Unless you safe is truly sealed to air, and even then, dehumidifying will actually draw moisture into the safe. So you can help, by dehumidifying the area that safe is in.

A golden rod type device does not remove humidity, it just raises the temp to lower the relative humidity, not the actual moisture content of the air.

 

[MarkCO]

You already have been given several good pieces of advice...the golden rod won't remove moisture and is probably drawing moisture into the safe. IF you have a lot of nice wood and blued firearms, it is better for them to maintain the same RH over a long period of time. If you coat the bores and keep them clean, they are actually better off with no rod and no desiccant.

Worked on a case several years ago where a Golden Rod dried out some paper enough, with high enough temperatures to ignite which ignited a pound of gunpowder...famous pistol hunter/writer Bob Good. The ensuing explosion was impressive. Would not have one in my safe if you paid me.

Desiccants, active or passive are preferred. If you get the right size for the container they should work well for 2-4 months even if you open and close it frequently. If the seals are poor, less time. The kind I use...3 hours in the over and they are ready to go again. I have had the same canister for going on 10 years, so the cost is almost nothing. I will routinely put guns in the safe without cleaning them, so for me, a much better solution.

 

[Hairball]

This is basically what I use:

 

[Strykervet]

You bring up a good point, I think the rods say to keep flammables away. I know they don't remove moisture, but they can prevent it from collecting on metal which is the point.

I'm more comfortable with something I don't have to empty (ideally) and I'm more comfortable using a 110v properly wired device with no moving parts than I am anything battery powered (especially rechargeable). I can't vent water out and use a proper dehumidifier because I can't run water and power through the same hole and for insurance reasons there can only be one hole and it has to be small (3/8 or 1/2, I forget which).

The problem is the dew point around here can be 50deg. or even worse, so I'd be playing with fire using desiccants alone without an airtight system --essentially at that point, I'd have water on the metal and in the desiccant. The desiccant only removes water in the air. See what I mean? That's why it comes in bottles and such, because they are sealed and the only point of the desiccant is to remove the trapped water.

Eventually the room will be more controlled, I want to move loading gear in there and utilize the space as an interior one, but that's a yet to be tackled problem.

No nice wood, thank god for that, but that damn HTI isn't cheap either.

 

[Strykervet]

This is basically what I use:

Hey, thanks, I'd never seen that bullfrog deal before. I'll look into that more.

 

[Hairball]

Thought I would just open this older thread and tag into it instead of starting another on the same idea. Basically I am going from the Remington units to a H2Out unit that covers 512 cubic feet with one unit instead of multiple Remington units. Does anyone out there have one of these H2Out units and what do you think. It says to burn them off every 4-6 weeks but I am hoping to go maybe 2 months at a time.

 

[hermosabeach]

I have a goldenrod that has worked for 15 years.... It keeps air circulating and the temp above a condensation point....

 

[Hairball]

I use a hot rod as well in addition to a bullfrog pad and some of these small rechargeable ones but I thought I would switch out the rechargeable units for one of these larger H2Out's that I received in the mail today. Made is USA and has a 10 year warranty and cover 512 CF so I am going to put it in my 65CF safe and see how it goes.

 

[lee1000]

I have a Browning silica bead bag/box and had bought some reusable silica from McMaster Carr (cheap) and still have stick them in the oven every 3 months or so. I'm seriously considering getting a goldenrod.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

[bjay]

Ok i read above.. no ammo inside safe... why is that?

 

[Pinecone]

No powder, primers or ammo in safe. If they go off, the safe becomes a VERY large bomb with LOTS of shrapnel.

 

[Strykervet]

Ok i read above.. no ammo inside safe... why is that?

Because the safe in a fire would be paramount to a bomb. A brick of 1000 primers is equivalent in force to a hand grenade (I've been told) and 1lb. of powder is equivalent to a stick or half stick of standard blasting dynamite. So loading components stored in a safe, that's very bad --unless you have them in a safe with the door open or even completely off, with the opening facing a "safe" direction. This makes the storage more like a shaped charge (were it to go off) and thus focus much of the blast where you intend for it to go.

There are hazardous materials lockers you can use, I like to use a cheap Stack on locker (the more expensive red hazardous materials lockers are basically the same thing just more expensive) and some places may require them if you have such and such amount of powder or primers. Some places require the lockers to be placed so far away from any buildings and have clearance around it among other things. But if you hoard powders and primers, it would behoove you to get a locker and read up on how to safely store powders in them.

Storing loaded ammo in a safe has it's own dangers, but IMO, the dangers of storing loaded ammo properly in a locked safe is much less than that of storing components, particularly powders and primers. In the military, the ammo was kept in metal boxes and that went into what was essentially a walk in vault packed with explosive shit. I'm doing no different (minus the walk in and the explosive shit!) and feel very comfortable with my ammo stored this way.

Also, say there was a fire. If I had the ammo stored elsewhere in the house, it's gonna burn fast and go off. Fire dept. won't respond to a fire when ammo starts kicking off, they just watch. But in the safe, the ammo is relatively well protected due to the fire rating (among the highest) and so it would take a while for that to go up. The powder and primers in an open locker, they will conflagrate relatively fast and blow in a "safe" direction.

Still currently using the rod and the silica pellets. Still not impressed by any battery operated devices. That, IMO, is going to be your highest risk for fire/spark/explosion from within due to the batteries. A properly wired 110 circuit inside the vault would be much safer. But note, "PROPERLY" is the key word here.

Be safe, and call your local fire dept./marshal for info on how you need to store powders there in your area, what they recommend, etc. They're usually real helpful guys and this is good info to know.

 

[NavyshooterM40]

I use a golden rod and put everything in a Bore Store from Brownells. The Bore Store also allows you to store more firearms with them scratching the finish of the one next to it.