Desert Tech Recoil Fulcrum Point

[Juggerxxx]

I hope someone smarter than myself can figure this out and I hope I can even ask the question in a way that makes sense.
I have been going to PRS style matches with my desert tech SRS for almost a year now. One thing I have been fighting is a considerable amount of muzzle rise when a round goes off. So much so, it’s basically impossible to stay on target from a barricade using an utter bag that is strapped to the rifle. I even notice the rise or hop slightly from a bench with a bipod and rear bag. It’s even pretty bad if I switch from the 6.5CM to the 223R barrel shooting 55gr bullets. It’s there with a muzzle brake or with a 2lbs suppressor hanging off a 28” long barrel. I have even added four MDT weights to the hard guard. Right now the rifle is front heavy and it seems to have helped but it’s still very far off from where I would like it.
It was very eye opening when I shot an MPA chassis the other day and I was able to free recoil it on a barricade and still see misses, impacts and even bullet traces. The recoil was very minimal and very linearly straight back at me. This started making me think why my SRS was so fricken bad.
Is the reason the SRS has this much muzzle rise is not because of balance but rather because of where the round or propulsion originates from, being so far back In the rifle and away from the balancing point? Or does that not matter and you have to look at the whole chassis as a solid part of the fulcrum equation and I have some other issue to look for?

 

[65x55guy]

I hope someone smarter than myself can figure this out and I hope I can even ask the question in a way that makes sense.
I have been going to PRS style matches with my desert tech SRS for almost a year now. One thing I have been fighting is a considerable amount of muzzle rise when a round goes off. So much so, it’s basically impossible to stay on target from a barricade using an utter bag that is strapped to the rifle. I even notice the rise or hop slightly from a bench with a bipod and rear bag. It’s even pretty bad if I switch from the 6.5CM to the 223R barrel shooting 55gr bullets. It’s there with a muzzle brake or with a 2lbs suppressor hanging off a 28” long barrel. I have even added four MDT weights to the hard guard. Right now the rifle is front heavy and it seems to have helped but it’s still very far off from where I would like it.
It was very eye opening when I shot an MPA chassis the other day and I was able to free recoil it on a barricade and still see misses, impacts and even bullet traces. The recoil was very minimal and very linearly straight back at me. This started making me think why my SRS was so fricken bad.
Is the reason the SRS has this much muzzle rise is not because of balance but rather because of where the round or propulsion originates from, being so far back In the rifle and away from the balancing point? Or does that not matter and you have to look at the whole chassis as a solid part of the fulcrum equation and I have some other issue to look for?

not an expert at all. That being said, is it possible that somehow your cheek weld and shoulder impact are actually putting downward pressure just slightly when you fire, causing muzzle to rise?

the SRS (imho) holds more like a large, fixed stock AR. The MDT would feel more like a traditional rifle stock and cheek weld and stock / shoulder placement might be different.

 

[Steel head]

Your short rifle will want to rotate easier than a longer rifle.
run a brake with a lot of vertical bias like a MBM beast or LB 3.
You could also raise your butt pad/cheek weld and scope to lower you bore center line.
There’s a really good reason they carry a wide stability bar.

 

[Juggerxxx]

Thanks guys. I did think about the heavy cheek on the rest but it is at its worst when I free recoil it with one hand on the trigger and one hand way out on the hand guard.
I am starting to agree that it is the overall length of the package Being an issue but then again I’m currently using a 28” barrel and the 2lbs suppressor is another 9”.
I drilled two holes out on the AP brake so I’m going to see if that helps at all at this weekends match. If it appears to help then I might drill out some additional holes.

 

[brianf]

you guys need to talk to @orkan

prob has more time on a DT than anyone, knows how to shoot as well

 

[orkan]

Thanks for the tag @brianf. Getting a barrel heavier and longer is the only way to get the balance point appreciably out in front of the trigger guard. Either that, or adding a stainless steel suppressor, which gives no benefit. At least with the longer barrel you can gain some ballistic advantage. The addition of the RRS DT dovetail adapter gives you a nice flat surface to ride a bag. I typically run 30" 1.05" straight contour barrels. Back when we were selling them, that was by far our most popular configuration, for this reason and many others. There's no reason not to run a 30-32" 1.05" straight barrel in competition. Get that heavy barrel out front, and it'll drag your balance point forward.

Otherwise, shooters have a tendency to not manage the extra weight in the rear properly. They tense up their firing shoulder, trying to lift the rifle with their body instead of support it properly... then during recoil it slaps them down or they instinctively relax. Should start relaxed, be relaxed, and end relaxed. Support the weight with your non-firing hand and only using the exact specific muscles required to do the job.

If you'd like a to have a high level discussion, feel free to give me a call, as I refuse to get into high level rifle driving discussions on a forum. 605-554-1911

 

[orkan]

Here's a 30" setup like I was referring to. You can see it's not clamped in, as it doesn't have the RRS mount attached. It's just balancing like that. Without the titanium can on, it would balance about perfect right there. With the RRS mount on, the nice flat bottom of that dovetail gives you a nice bag rider for those barricade shots, and also distributes the weight across a wider area, which makes it easier to balance. A 32" balances slightly better, and with a nice big stainless brake out there, does even better. Then you can throw the bipod legs forward and it will move it out further still. A 30-32" with an RRS plate installed is about perfect, in my opinion.

 

[Juggerxxx]

Thank you tagging Greg and thank you Greg for the reply. I miss you around the forums these days.
Here is my rifle and it’s balancing point (not clamped) with a 28” barrel and the weights I have added. Even removed the monopod but that’s not much weigh. Seems very balanced but yet a massive amount of muzzle rise. I have taken me out of the equation and just compared free recoil to that of a traditional action rifle. Massive difference and I just don’t grasp why. I might have to call you.

 

[orkan]

One thing I've seen a few times before is the "snaggy grippy" nature of the handguard to skin transition right there where yours sits. That stuff grabs onto your bag and will cause it to rock, rather than slide. The RRS plate I've mentioned helps considerably with that. What contour of barrel you have there? It looks like your balance point is just barely in front of the trigger guard. To help things out, you'll really want to get that balance point out onto the handguard a bit.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

In short.....
With the DT the "detonation" is on top/behind the user interface (Trigger Hand).
With traditional bolt actions the "detonation" is far in front of the user interface (Trigger Hand).

In layman terms.....Think of it this way.
Way easier to pivot something in the middle (DT grip location) than to pivot at a spot that is more off center.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Juggerxxx]

One thing I've seen a few times before is the "snaggy grippy" nature of the handguard to skin transition right there where yours sits. That stuff grabs onto your bag and will cause it to rock, rather than slide. The RRS plate I've mentioned helps considerably with that. What contour of barrel you have there? It looks like your balance point is just barely in front of the trigger guard. To help things out, you'll really want to get that balance point out onto the handguard a bit.

Oh crap! Is this what you are possible suggesting in this video where I have the bag strapped to the scope mount? The recoil appears to be linear at first but then the muzzle rises as soon as the scope mount stops on the strap And even starts to lift the ladder?

 

[orkan]

Oh crap! Is this what you are possible suggesting in this video where I have the bag strapped to the scope mount? The recoil appears to be linear at first but then the muzzle rises as soon as the scope mount stops on the strap And even starts to lift the ladder?

Yup... in that situation... the way you've got that strap like that... nearly any rifle is going to go muzzle up in an awful hurry. Let that rifle slide independent of the support bag. Also, I'm not a super big fan of totally "free recoil." Having the rifle's NPA set on your support so that it is trained on target with no input from you is a pretty good thought process. However, your relaxed shoulder should be not far away or lightly pressing in order to stop that momentum quickly.

You don't want the rifle setup as a teeter totter. You want it setup as a sled. Flat, balanced, and room to move without pivoting on a fulcrum.

 

[rob.sfo]

For what it’s worth, I’m able to spot hits/misses with my 16” 308 SRS. And I’m not special. So there should be something that can be fixed (likely pointed out by the smarter people who already commented).

Just posting to give you some hope.