Did Hornady Change 147 ELD-M Bullet?

[mikehill85]

I have a Tikka CTR in 6.5 Creedmoor and my rifle really shoots the 147 grain Hornady ELD-M bullets well. I recently bought a new box of 100 bullets and I got pretty bad results with them. My rifle typically averages < 0.5 MOA for 5-shot groups with them and the new box of bullets averaged ~0.7 MOA. It was literally like shooting a different rifle.

The bullets from the new box that shoot poorly have a more translucent ballistic tip (on the right below) and are about 4/1000 of an inch shorter in the base to ogive dimension (according to my comparator) than the bullets that shot well (see below).

Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[stello1001]

This is simply all my speculation, but I believe the tip could indeed have been made from a different material.

As far as the measurement changing, that's just your typical hornady lot to lot variation.

It's not like they're known for consistency, quite the opposite actually.

 

[mikehill85]

This is simply all my speculation, but I believe the tip could indeed have been made from a different material.

As far as the measurement changing, that's just your typical hornady lot to lot variation.

It's not like they're known for consistency, quite the opposite actually.

I looked into it a little bit and it seems Bryan Litz noticed this too (see below). Apparently there are two different versions of the bullet. One is a bit longer than the other. I checked and all the factory ammo I have from the past year has the less opaque ballistic tip (which is the bullet that shot much better for me).

I would note that something similar happened to me with the 140 grain ELD-M bullets. They shot great and then when I bought a new box they sucked. I would guess there is something similar going on. At the time I didn't pay much attention to it and didn't notice/check if there was a difference in the ballistic tips or the dimensions between those that shot well and the ones that didn't.

Anyway, I have no idea how to know which version I am getting when I buy a box of bullets. I guess I'll have to do some load development and switch to a different manufacturer.

Bryan Litz Ballistics

There appears to be two different versions of the Hornady .264 caliber 147 grain ELDM. One is a longer nose, lower drag, higher (but less consistent) BC, while the other is a shorter, higher drag,...

www.facebook.com

 

[Emerson0311]

I looked into it a little bit and it seems Bryan Litz noticed this too (see below). Apparently there are two different versions of the bullet. One is a bit longer than the other. I checked and all the factory ammo I have from the past year has the less opaque ballistic tip (which is the bullet that shot much better for me).

I would note that something similar happened to me with the 140 grain ELD-M bullets. They shot great and then when I bought a new box they sucked. I would guess there is something similar going on. At the time I didn't pay much attention to it and didn't notice/check if there was a difference in the ballistic tips or the dimensions between those that shot well and the ones that didn't.

Anyway, I have no idea how to know which version I am getting when I buy a box of bullets. I guess I'll have to do some load development and switch to a different manufacturer.

Bryan Litz Ballistics

There appears to be two different versions of the Hornady .264 caliber 147 grain ELDM. One is a longer nose, lower drag, higher (but less consistent) BC, while the other is a shorter, higher drag,...

www.facebook.com

How much you want to bet the newer version is cheaper to manufacture?

 

[straightshooter1]

I looked into it a little bit and it seems Bryan Litz noticed this too (see below). Apparently there are two different versions of the bullet. One is a bit longer than the other. I checked and all the factory ammo I have from the past year has the less opaque ballistic tip (which is the bullet that shot much better for me).

I would note that something similar happened to me with the 140 grain ELD-M bullets. They shot great and then when I bought a new box they sucked. I would guess there is something similar going on. At the time I didn't pay much attention to it and didn't notice/check if there was a difference in the ballistic tips or the dimensions between those that shot well and the ones that didn't.

Anyway, I have no idea how to know which version I am getting when I buy a box of bullets. I guess I'll have to do some load development and switch to a different manufacturer.

Bryan Litz Ballistics

There appears to be two different versions of the Hornady .264 caliber 147 grain ELDM. One is a longer nose, lower drag, higher (but less consistent) BC, while the other is a shorter, higher drag,...

www.facebook.com

Well, if you go to a different manufacturer, you'll still find significant differenced from lot to lot in their BTO's. This is true even for the likes of Berger bullets.

 

[HMRamateur]

Well, if you go to a different manufacturer, you'll still find significant differenced from lot to lot in their BTO's. This is true even for the likes of Berger bullets.

I wouldn't quite say significant. Berger has been very close lot to lot, while hornady is absolutely significantly different. I sold all my hornady bullets and replaced them with berger and the difference is very minor compared.

 

[mikehill85]

Well, if you go to a different manufacturer, you'll still find significant differenced from lot to lot in their BTO's. This is true even for the likes of Berger bullets.

That's true. The issue here is these appear to be literally two different bullets sold as the same. If you look at Bryan Litz's post about it, the difference in the length of the nose of the two bullets is 0.038", which is quite significant.

 

[Ledzep]

I looked into it a little bit and it seems Bryan Litz noticed this too (see below). Apparently there are two different versions of the bullet. One is a bit longer than the other. I checked and all the factory ammo I have from the past year has the less opaque ballistic tip (which is the bullet that shot much better for me).

I would note that something similar happened to me with the 140 grain ELD-M bullets. They shot great and then when I bought a new box they sucked. I would guess there is something similar going on. At the time I didn't pay much attention to it and didn't notice/check if there was a difference in the ballistic tips or the dimensions between those that shot well and the ones that didn't.

Anyway, I have no idea how to know which version I am getting when I buy a box of bullets. I guess I'll have to do some load development and switch to a different manufacturer.

Bryan Litz Ballistics

There appears to be two different versions of the Hornady .264 caliber 147 grain ELDM. One is a longer nose, lower drag, higher (but less consistent) BC, while the other is a shorter, higher drag,...

www.facebook.com

There was a change made across the board with ELD-X, ELD-M, CX, and ELD-VT to reduce drag variability. It was simply tip geometry. What Brian Litz saw and posted is 3rd party confirmation that DVRT works. The way our SKU system works, there is zero difference between 26333B (or any other bullet) that is made for boxing as bullets or those that are sent to ammo. Lot-to-lot performance in any random given barrel is subject to change with any bullet ever made by any manufacturer.



As far as the color/shade in the tip, we have a couple of material suppliers to reduce the probability/instances where a sub-component vendor halts production (no tips, no bullets). There are slight color variations but the base material is chemically the same thing (within the realm that two batches of polymer are "the same").

How much you want to bet the newer version is cheaper to manufacture?

See the above. Same part, same process, possibly a different material vendor or a different material lot. The polymer tip plays into DVRT and drag, but in my experience has almost no influence on dispersion unless it gets completely chewed up by a semi-auto. ETA: The tip is also by FARRRR the least effective cost cutting component of the bullet. copper & lead > plastic for price by a long shot.

 

[straightshooter1]

That's true. The issue here is these are literally two different bullets sold as the same. If you look at Bryan Litz's post about it, the difference in the length of the nose of the two bullets is 0.038", which is quite significant.

Looking at Bryan Litz data that you posted, it definitely looks like two different bullets, given such big differences in all the specs (e.g. boattail, bearing surface and ogive).

 

[mikehill85]

There was a change made across the board with ELD-X, ELD-M, CX, and ELD-VT to reduce drag variability. It was simply tip geometry. What Brian Litz saw and posted is 3rd party confirmation that DVRT works. The way our SKU system works, there is zero difference between 26333B (or any other bullet) that is made for boxing as bullets or those that are sent to ammo. Lot-to-lot performance in any random given barrel is subject to change with any bullet ever made by any manufacturer.



As far as the color/shade in the tip, we have a couple of material suppliers to reduce the probability/instances where a sub-component vendor halts production (no tips, no bullets). There are slight color variations but the base material is chemically the same thing (within the realm that two batches of polymer are "the same").



See the above. Same part, same process, possibly a different material vendor or a different material lot. The polymer tip plays into DVRT and drag, but in my experience has almost no influence on dispersion unless it gets completely chewed up by a semi-auto. ETA: The tip is also by FARRRR the least effective cost cutting component of the bullet. copper & lead > plastic for price by a long shot.

Good to know. Do you know approximately when the change took place? It could help me to look for lots of bullet of the type my rifle likes. When you say the change was simply tip geometry do you mean just the ballistic tip or the geometry of the nose of the bullet and the ballistic tip? Which version of the 147 grain ELD-M described in Bryan Litz's post is the one currently in production?

Yes, I agree that the ballistic tip probably isn't going to change dispersion unless you really mess up the ballistic tip. That said, if Bryan Litz's measurements are roughly correct, the two versions of this bullet are basically different bullets. They weigh the same and have close to the same base-to-ogive dimensions but the bearing surface length is drastically different.

 

[Ledzep]

Good to know. Do you know approximately when the change took place? It could help me to look for lots of bullet of the type my rifle likes. When you say the change was simply tip geometry do you mean just the ballistic tip or the geometry of the nose of the bullet and the ballistic tip? Which version of the 147 grain ELD-M described in Bryan Litz's post is the one currently in production?

Yes, I agree that the ballistic tip probably isn't going to change dispersion unless you really mess up the ballistic tip. That said, if Bryan Litz's measurements are roughly correct, the two versions of this bullet are basically different bullets. They weigh the same and have close to the same base-to-ogive dimensions but the bearing surface length is drastically different.

It's been several years, about the time of A-Tip release. We kept it quiet while the patent process went through. The only changes to the 147 I can see was the cup that was used, which affected overall length (Both OAL's in his post are from after that change, it was done relatively early in production), and the DVRT tip change. There has never been a change to boat tail length, nor ogive length.

Let me state this clearly, Brian Litz stating that there are "Two versions" of the 147 ELD-M is purely an assumption on his part. He never reached out to us to verify that. To the best of my knowledge (I'm looking at revision history on the production print right now, I've also been actively involved or aware of most bullet plant projects for the last ~6 years) it's a false assumption. The drag variability difference between the two lines up with our numbers for Pre and Post DVRT. In other words, he has two lots of the SAME bullet, pre and post DVRT. If you look at the displayed data on his post, the boat-tail length does not include heel radius, which I assume makes up for the difference in boat-tail overall length. Also, the ogive/bearing surface intersection is always a muddy dimension to grab with authority. How you determine that point depends very much on the consistency of that measurement. It's easiest on "sharp" secant ogives but the 147 is a less-severe secant ogive with a more gradual transition to full bullet diameter. It's even more difficult to grab on tangent and hybrid bullets. In fairness, it could be a case of tooling wear blending that intersection point, too. I don't know what he had or how it was measured.

 

[Baron23]

If you look at Bryan Litz's post

I’d be glad to read it if you copied it here. But otherwise….fuck Facebook.

 

[mikehill85]

I’d be glad to read it if you copied it here. But otherwise….fuck Facebook.

There you go.

 

[barnesuser28]

I wouldn't quite say significant. Berger has been very close lot to lot, while hornady is absolutely significantly different. I sold all my hornady bullets and replaced them with berger and the difference is very minor compared.

I have two lots of 105 hybrids that are .040" different in length. I emailed Berger about it and they said they dont track bullet dimensions across lots, only within a lot. They both shoot great so idc but it is strange

 

[CK1.0]

FWIW, IME if one is in the habit of buying bullets 100 here and 100 there, then they’re pretty much always going to be seeing and dealing with more variability than they need to. That’s even if the boxes have the same lot number on them too, as some manufacturers might change shifts 2-3 times over the course of a “lot” and what decides why or the occasion they use to switch lots is sometimes a mystery.

That said, buying bullets in bulk (multiple 500ct boxes or more at a time) makes things much easier.

I’ve seen guys slag Hornady and some others over bullet consistency (especially some cheaper ones that they’ve never even shot enough of to know what they’re talking about) while praising other brands they’ve had better luck with… But from what I’ve seen, when bought in bulk, they’re all nearly about the same as far as consistency once you’ve got experience loading thousands of them.

Premium bullets like A-Tips and Bergers do usually shake out slightly better than the norm IME. But for what we pay for them they’d better (and while better, from what I’ve seen, like most things in this sport, the greater cost doesn’t really buy you a 1:1 ratio of cost to increased-performance).

 

[HMRamateur]

I have two lots of 105 hybrids that are .040" different in length. I emailed Berger about it and they said they dont track bullet dimensions across lots, only within a lot. They both shoot great so idc but it is strange

Interesting. I hadn't noticed that yet with multiple bullets from berger, crazy to see such a difference in length. As long as it shoots good, I guess that's all that really matters.