Did I over anneal my brass? help!

[hkfan45]

I just set up my new Bench Source annealer and had a hell of a time trying to determine if I had correctly set the dwell time and height of the torches. I am annealing my Lapua 308 brass which has 7 prior firings and has never been annealed before. When I ordered the Bench Source, it was recommended to me that since my brass had not been annealed in so many firings, I should run the brass through twice. I used Tempilaq 650 on the neck/shoulder and 400 on the body. I had a hard time reading the Tempilaq 650 since it wanted to turn black instead of clear. I finally decided on 3.8 seconds where the Tempilaq 650 turned clear around the shoulder and the Tempilaq 400 did not turn clear on the body. The case necks never turned red or glowed at all (I turned off lights). I ran the brass through twice, per the recommendation of Bench Source.

Now, heres the issue. I tried sizing the brass on the FL type-s die (334 bushing) like I always do (I neck turn). Usually, with the same brass prior to annealing (fired 7 times), my sized neck diameter was 0.3325-333. However, after annealing, this same brass is sizing to a neck diameter of 0.330-0.3305. What gives? Why is it sizing much smaller than before annealing? Did I over anneal and now the brass is too soft??

 

[SWThomas]

Sounds like you did it right to me. The brass will be softer once it's annealed and won't have as much spring back as before. Hence the smaller measurements.

Wait until you see what happens to your group size. You'll be happy.

 

[hkfan45]

It seems abnormal for a 334 bushing to size annealed brass to a diameter of 0.3305. That's what has me so thrown off.

Is there a test to determine if I over annealed?

 

[cobyb]

I also anneal with a bench source and using the tempilaq on the inside of the case will yield better results.

 

[FALex]

What does your brass look like after annealing? See any grayish/bluish color just below the shoulders? Can you post a pic of some pieces?

 

[hkfan45]

What does your brass look like after annealing? See any grayish/bluish color just below the shoulders? Can you post a pic of some pieces?

Looks pretty much like the brass did prior to annealing. See picture.

 

[timelinex]

It seems abnormal for a 334 bushing to size annealed brass to a diameter of 0.3305. That's what has me so thrown off.

Is there a test to determine if I over annealed?

Why? Sounds about right.. .
.334 minus .003 (combined neck wall thickness on lapua brass) is .331. Your just .0005 off, which can be from a combination of things like slightly thicker necks, bushing slightly smaller than spec and accuracy of measuring device.

Your annealing did exactly what it was supposed to; make the necks pliable and reduce spring back.

I don't think there is any easy way to check over annealing by a little. The only way I know of to check if you really screwed the pooch is if you can bend the necks with your hand force. Otherwise nothing to worry about.

Also, I've never heard of the "run it through twice" advice. If you anneal it right the first time, that's it. The brass is annealed. I might be wrong about this one, I just never heard otherwise though.

 

[hkfan45]

Why? Sounds about right.. .
.334 minus .003 (combined neck wall thickness on lapua brass) is .331. Your just .0005 off, which can be from a combination of things like slightly thicker necks, bushing slightly smaller than spec and accuracy of measuring device.

Your annealing did exactly what it was supposed to; make the necks pliable and reduce spring back.


I don't think there is any easy way to check over annealing by a little. The only way I know of to check if you really screwed the pooch is if you can bend the necks with your hand force. Otherwise nothing to worry about.

Also, I've never heard of the "run it through twice" advice. If you anneal it right the first time, that's it. The brass is annealed. I might be wrong about this one, I just never heard otherwise though.

I just took a piece of brand new, never fired or sized Lapua brass and sized in in my type-s die w/ 334 bushing. The diameter after sizing was .3325, the same as the 7th fired pre-annealed brass. So, my annealed brass seems to have even less spring back than a piece of new Lapua brass? I'm confused.

 

[FALex]

I'm thinking you under-annealed the cases...no dark, cherry-red glow, 3.8 seconds under the flame, and the absence of the bluish/gray coloring just below shoulder are indicators that they just did not get hot enough.

I know all torch settings are different, but when I turn mine on, it is just barely on...probably considered the "low" setting of the torch. I only have the one torch, using a low rpm motor, but my .260 cases average 8-10 seconds to properly anneal them.

Best article I have read on the "Art of Annealing"
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

 

[hkfan45]

I use two torches at almost their highest setting. The pencil tip is about 0.5" away from the neck, with the tip of the pencil blue flame parallel to the middle of the case neck. The blush outer flame (wider than the blue pencil tip) encompasses the whole neck and top part of shoulder junction. Does this sound right? Should the flame be lower so that the pencil tip is aligned with the shoulder?

 

[FALex]

I use two torches at almost their highest setting. The pencil tip is about 0.5" away from the neck, with the tip of the pencil blue flame parallel to the middle of the case neck. The blush outer flame (wider than the blue pencil tip) encompasses the whole neck and top part of shoulder junction. Does this sound right? Should the flame be lower so that the pencil tip is aligned with the shoulder?

No, I would caution against moving it any lower on the case. The location of your flame is probably good, just need to add time to each case. Do you have some spare/discarded brass, or maybe some .223/cheap stuff you can play with? You really want to see that nice, deep, maroon glow and then get them out of the flame.

 

[hkfan45]

So, I repeated the test with spare brass. I left the height of the torches and torch intensity the same. Currently, I annealed at 3.8 secs and the case neck remains dark (with lights turned off) as it leaves spindle. At 4.5 secs, I see a very slight dark red glow just as it leaves the spindle. The Tempilaq 400 stripe 1" from case head does not melt. At 5 secs, the case neck has turned a slightly lighter shade of red just as it leaves the spindle. The Tempilaq 400 begins to slightly melt at the 1" mark on the case. At 6 secs, the case neck glows cherry red and the Tempilaq 400 melts to about 0.5" from the case head. Interestingly, even at 6 secs, there is no blue/gray ring below the shoulder. The neck does begin to darken at the 4.5 sec mark, though.

 

[Aushunter]

3.8 seconds doesn't sound long enough IMO for the brass to get to the right temperature, unless you are using 2 torches.

I practice on discarded brass from the range before I use my own.

 

[SWThomas]

So, I repeated the test with spare brass. I left the height of the torches and torch intensity the same. Currently, I annealed at 3.8 secs and the case neck remains dark (with lights turned off) as it leaves spindle. At 4.5 secs, I see a very slight dark red glow just as it leaves the spindle. The Tempilaq 400 stripe 1" from case head does not melt. At 5 secs, the case neck has turned a slightly lighter shade of red just as it leaves the spindle. The Tempilaq 400 begins to slightly melt at the 1" mark on the case. At 6 secs, the case neck glows cherry red and the Tempilaq 400 melts to about 0.5" from the case head. Interestingly, even at 6 secs, there is no blue/gray ring below the shoulder. The neck does begin to darken at the 4.5 sec mark, though.

Sounds like 5 seconds is good.

 

[Kentucky Jelly]

Benchsource does use two torches. Don't worry about the color of the ring after annealing. Trust the tempilaq. What is benchsource's reasoning behind annealing twice?

 

[hkfan45]

The problem with the Tempilaq 650 I am finding is no matter how thin I put it on, it just turns black, not clear. This is on the outside of the case. Am I looking for when it turns clear, or starts to melt? As for the Tempilaq 400, it just starts to melt and then turn a slight brownish color at 5 secs at the 1" mark from the case head.

 

[timelinex]

I know the benchsource manual says to use 650, but the right temperature to use is 750. Theres a member or two on here that are straight up metallurgists and have comments on alot of annealing threads. Those are the guys to really listen to. 650 degrees is not enough to properly anneal the brass unless you keep it in there longer. The issue with keeping the brass in there longer is that the base starts getting hot before the neck is the proper temperature (as you saw). As far as using the tempilaq, make sure you put it on the inside of the neck and a good layer of it.

I had alot of trouble at first too and after some advice on here and some experience, this is what I have found works best... Don't use tempilaq, but rather send the brass through in a dark room. Make sure to choose a long setting like 6 seconds. Then time how long it takes for the flame to turn from blue to engulfing the neck with a yellow flame. Put it down to a time so that yellow engulfing flame happens right as the brass is leaving the flame. Many knowledgeable reloaders say this is the perfect time. According to metallurgists however its just slightly too long. That color change is actually one of the elements in the brass burning out. So adjust the time very slowly down, so its at the brink of happening but doesn't actually happen. This should be the perfect time. At this point, I usually bust out the 450 and 750 tempilaq( your 400 will do just fine). The 450 should not change at all and it should be about right on for the 750. If the 450 is changing then your flame isn't hot enough and the brass is spending too much time in the flame, so turn it up hotter. If your flame is too hot, it will be annealing really fast (like 2-3 seconds). There's no harm done in doing it too fast, but its just hard to tune it to just right and keep it that way. When the flame temperature naturally gets hotter or colder over time, you will be under or over annealing by 2x more.

According to your descriptions, it sounds like that correct time might be somewhere in the high 4's range, which is consistent with the results of many others. Noones times will be the same, because noones flames are exactly the same temperature or location.

As far as the measurement of your sized cases go.. Lets put it this way. There is no way for it to get any smaller than the size of your bushing, unless something is gumming it up like lube. Don't lose any sleep over it, just get the proper bushing and call it a day. If a bigger bushing gets the job done, thats great. You will be working the brass that much less.

 

[kansas]

Tag. Still learning this step in case prep.

 

[Rprecision]

I know the benchsource manual says to use 650, but the right temperature to use is 750. Theres a member or two on here that are straight up metallurgists and have comments on alot of annealing threads. Those are the guys to really listen to. 650 degrees is not enough to properly anneal the brass unless you keep it in there longer. The issue with keeping the brass in there longer is that the base starts getting hot before the neck is the proper temperature (as you saw). As far as using the tempilaq, make sure you put it on the inside of the neck and a good layer of it.

I had alot of trouble at first too and after some advice on here and some experience, this is what I have found works best... Don't use tempilaq, but rather send the brass through in a dark room. Make sure to choose a long setting like 6 seconds. Then time how long it takes for the flame to turn from blue to engulfing the neck with a yellow flame. Put it down to a time so that yellow engulfing flame happens right as the brass is leaving the flame. Many knowledgeable reloaders say this is the perfect time. According to metallurgists however its just slightly too long. That color change is actually one of the elements in the brass burning out. So adjust the time very slowly down, so its at the brink of happening but doesn't actually happen. This should be the perfect time. At this point, I usually bust out the 450 and 750 tempilaq( your 400 will do just fine). The 450 should not change at all and it should be about right on for the 750. If the 450 is changing then your flame isn't hot enough and the brass is spending too much time in the flame, so turn it up hotter. If your flame is too hot, it will be annealing really fast (like 2-3 seconds). There's no harm done in doing it too fast, but its just hard to tune it to just right and keep it that way. When the flame temperature naturally gets hotter or colder over time, you will be under or over annealing by 2x more.

According to your descriptions, it sounds like that correct time might be somewhere in the high 4's range, which is consistent with the results of many others. Noones times will be the same, because noones flames are exactly the same temperature or location.

As far as the measurement of your sized cases go.. Lets put it this way. There is no way for it to get any smaller than the size of your bushing, unless something is gumming it up like lube. Don't lose any sleep over it, just get the proper bushing and call it a day. If a bigger bushing gets the job done, thats great. You will be working the brass that much less.

This is great advise, mirrors my findings.

Some key things, don't let the patina on the brass dictate if you did it right. The classic patina look shows up after time. Timpleq goes on liquid dries to a solid. Once it gets to the right temperature it returns to a liquid.

make a gauge to keep your torch a consistent distance from the neck. Measure the blue cone of the torch for better repeatability

 

[MrFord]

The problem with the Tempilaq 650 I am finding is no matter how thin I put it on, it just turns black, not clear. This is on the outside of the case. Am I looking for when it turns clear, or starts to melt? As for the Tempilaq 400, it just starts to melt and then turn a slight brownish color at 5 secs at the 1" mark from the case head.

When you paint it on the outside of the brass you are measuring the temp of the flame. Put it inside the case neck to measure the temp of the brass

Mr.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

I know the benchsource manual says to use 650, but the right temperature to use is 750. Theres a member or two on here that are straight up metallurgists and have comments on alot of annealing threads. Those are the guys to really listen to. 650 degrees is not enough to properly anneal the brass unless you keep it in there longer. The issue with keeping the brass in there longer is that the base starts getting hot before the neck is the proper temperature (as you saw). As far as using the tempilaq, make sure you put it on the inside of the neck and a good layer of it.

I had alot of trouble at first too and after some advice on here and some experience, this is what I have found works best... Don't use tempilaq, but rather send the brass through in a dark room. Make sure to choose a long setting like 6 seconds. Then time how long it takes for the flame to turn from blue to engulfing the neck with a yellow flame. Put it down to a time so that yellow engulfing flame happens right as the brass is leaving the flame. Many knowledgeable reloaders say this is the perfect time. According to metallurgists however its just slightly too long. That color change is actually one of the elements in the brass burning out. So adjust the time very slowly down, so its at the brink of happening but doesn't actually happen. This should be the perfect time. At this point, I usually bust out the 450 and 750 tempilaq( your 400 will do just fine). The 450 should not change at all and it should be about right on for the 750. If the 450 is changing then your flame isn't hot enough and the brass is spending too much time in the flame, so turn it up hotter. If your flame is too hot, it will be annealing really fast (like 2-3 seconds). There's no harm done in doing it too fast, but its just hard to tune it to just right and keep it that way. When the flame temperature naturally gets hotter or colder over time, you will be under or over annealing by 2x more.

According to your descriptions, it sounds like that correct time might be somewhere in the high 4's range, which is consistent with the results of many others. Noones times will be the same, because noones flames are exactly the same temperature or location.

As far as the measurement of your sized cases go.. Lets put it this way. There is no way for it to get any smaller than the size of your bushing, unless something is gumming it up like lube. Don't lose any sleep over it, just get the proper bushing and call it a day. If a bigger bushing gets the job done, thats great. You will be working the brass that much less.

Here is your answer to both the annealing question and the sizing. Like Timelinex says, you want to adjust things to cycle the brass out of the flame just prior to that change in flame color. Your necks shouldn't be glowing cherry red or any BS like that, but you also need to get the brass hot enough to accomplish the task.

 

[bubbala]

The Art and Science of Annealing

 

[hkfan45]

So, I did some more testing at a slightly longer dwell time (4.5 secs). At that speed, the flame turns to yellow about 0.5-0.75 sec before it moves off the spindle. The case mouth glows a slight dark red just as it leaves the flame. See the attached picture of case. It shows a slight gray mark just under shoulder. I've given up on the Tempilaq 650. It seems to turn black and never get clear, regardless of whether I put it outside or inside.

 

[Rprecision]

I use 750 the 650 doesnt match up with what we are trying to accomplish

 

[SeattleDude]

Are you sizing from Fired (.344) all the way down to .334 in one operation? If thats the case then that could be a reason why they size like that.

I had issues with neck kind of flaring up when I try to size in one step using Stype bushing. So I size with .339 bushing first and then with .335 to get my .002 neck tension.