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Gunsmithing Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

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cap2031

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Feb 23, 2011
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Houston Texas, U.S.A.
www.templartacticalfirearms.com
#1
I'm wanting to start building some rifles, I've got machining experience and I know that a good lathe is worth the money, I just want to find a good deal.

Do smiths ever sell lathes here? Where is a good place to look online (I've been on CL & ebay for months and nothing but junk, so far). This is for my garage that has to fit 1 car and a Ducati so I'm looking for around a 12x lathe, I want to be able to dial runout down to or lower than .0001"

I've been eyeing the Grizzly G4003 with stand. $3k is a great price for that machine, but would really like to find one for $2k. I want to reserve the rest of my budget for tooling, etc.

I'm also looking for a good tabletop mill for inletting and other small stuff.

Thanks,
CAP
 
#2
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

Well I am a real amatuer even in my book. With that being said you say you "have machining experience"? If so then you are expecting to purchase a lathe large enough to do gun work, can't have more than a 12" swing and don't want to pay more than $2K? Then you are expecting this machine to be capable of "dialing runout to less than .0001"?, for $2K???

Sir, afraid your expectations for machine vs. the amount you are willing to pay is at complete opposite ends of reality. Again, I am a dipshit amatuer machinist but any 'machinist/gunsmith' worth his salt that has a machine capable of your expectations for tolerance and size isn't going to meet your price range!

I looked for years around here etc for a lathe appropriate size for gun work. A fairly well used machine is hard to come buy for $2K in good condition and one capable of the tolerances you are requiring will only exist in a higher dollar and gently used tool room lathe. A new machine capable of tolerances you are expecting consistently doesn't exist for $3k, more like 3 times that I would think!

A used machine with that capability is going to be expensive and a new machine is going to be really expensive!

Just my .02 worth but think you need to either lower your expectaions for a used machine tolerances or raise your dollar limit considerably.

Sincerely wish you luck.

Respectfully,
Dennis
 
#3
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

Thanks for your feedback.

I would respectfully disagree with you on a few points. Not only do I have machinist experience (10 yrs in hydrogen fuel cells, aerospace fluidic connectors, and large oil/gas products), but I'm a degreed manufacturing engineer who has purchased multi million dollar lathes, mills, etc, and make my living in manufacturing of very high dollar tight tolerance machined parts. Currently I'm a production manager in the oil and gas business and shipped over thirty million last month.

In my experience higher cost machines do not mean tighter tolerances. It usually means you have a larger envelope where you can charge a premium for your capabilities as being one of the only shops that can do a particular kind of work. Our $5M Integrex machines and $700 Mori's and Daewoo CNCs get no better tolerances than some of our manual work on very old manual LeBlones. The output and complex machining capabilities blow the LaBlone out of the water, but it does nothing for +- tolerances. I'm in this industry, but the lathe I'm looking for is much smaller than anything in my industry to find within my realm of business.

Your right about the tool room lathe route, and when people need to get rid of them they can easily go for $1500 - $2000. The market in the oil/gas industry (where I live for CL) is so hot right now there's really nothing for sale, even the junk machines that are still able to run are being used for production.

Your wrong about the runout and needing a higher cost machine. I can dial in almost any manual lathe to .0005" as long as its got decent bearings, getting to .0001" is not that much harder especially on a smaller lathe that hasn't been abused and if it was only used for gunsmith work it should be in perfect shape. It takes a lot of patience and some finesse, but I've dialed down to .0005" all day long machining drill bits (oil/gas PDC diamond bits) on an old lagun in China that had pretty worn bearings. This was critical for vibration down hole and I taught all my chinese guys how to do this to produce the best quality because bad quality reflected badly on myself being the plant manager of our China plant.

Is $2K ridiculous, no, it happens all the time. Grizzly makes a decent machine for $3K, I wouldn't run production on it, but its ok for the home hobby gunsmith. A used Grizzly should sell in the 1.5-2K range depending on what it comes with. If it comes completely tooled up I would gladly go to $3K.

When the market turns here I'm sure I can pick something up pretty decent for $1500, but that may take 2 - 5 yrs and I don't want to wait that long.

Also, I might be a little spoiled being in a part of the country that has A LOT of wealthy machining manufacturing with very high profit margins. Meaning they let equipment go and purchase new equipment at the drop of a hat. So location wise I might be used to seeing 1.5-2K deals for tool room type lathes and even larger older machines. I'm sure in different parts of the country this is not occurring.

So it sounds like lathes are sold from time to time here, but not often.
 
#5
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cap-Kilo66</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm wanting to start building some rifles, I've got<span style="font-weight: bold"> machining experience</span> and <span style="font-weight: bold">I know that a good lathe is worth the money, I just want to find a good deal.</span>forgot to consider the "good deal" part

Thanks,
CAP </div></div>

Guess stupid me fell into a 'baited' question huh? You sure made it clear in above statement of your knowledge/experience! Now that you made me out for an uneducated fool I guess I will respond with my last post on THIS matter.....

If you have so much experience with machining, machines and tolerances then why are you searching a shooting forum for advice on where to purchase. Seems with your 'expertise' you would have more connections to "cheap" machines then anyone here? Never ran across a smith on any shooting forum with a prestine and accurate lathe wanting to sell it cheap to buy something else.

I purchased a real nice SB Heavy 10L from a local college auction 3yrs ago this month for $1872 with tax. Have no clue if it will 'dial in' to .0001 or less, all I know is I don't have the experience to find out nor the need. While being 'stupid' for responding to a loaded question I surely am not stupid enough to sell if for $2k or even $3k and doubt anyone with any experience would do so hence my stating such in my first post. Guess I am not smart enough to figure out why with your experience, knowledge, connections and salary that you are digging in the dirty corners for a near new lathe at a near worn out price??

Well I am done with this and made another 'note to self' on why I keep answering questions on this forum or any others? Guess the only thing I can come up with is my life indeed 'really sucks'!
Now gonna take my dumb uneducated ass out to the shop and start building a 6XC for cousin on my 'cheap' lathe.

Respectfully,
Dennis the Chump
 
#6
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

Dennis,

Don't take it so personally. You both made good points. I, and I'm sure a few other, would be interested in your build process. Please post some pics of your progress when you get a chance.

-Ryan
 
#7
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

Dennis,

I totally didn't mean to make you sound like a fool at all, not my intention and I don't think that represents you at all, sorry if my tone came off that way, I was just defending myself from your response, and wanted to make sure you know I wasn't a complete idiot as well. It also wasn't a loaded question, I just seriously asked if lathes are sold on the hide here, if not I would move on to other avenues for my hunt without paying a fortune in freight.

Your SB lathe is the exact kind of deal that I'm looking for. And yes, you should be able to dial it down to .0001". Especially if this was a college lathe that was bought new by the college and not a donated abused lathe to that college. Even so, it may take a little work or reconditioning which shouldn't cost to much to get it in shape. I've called my university and they are looking for lathes, not selling any; again down in Houston the market is hot and the colleges are trying to train machinists as fast as possible. $4.00 gas gets every machine working like crazy down here.

I do have a lot of experience and a lot of connections in my market, but as I said there's no way these guys will sell even their junk. They are putting everything to work until it falls apart. Plus the market I work in is for REALLY expensive large envelope machines and stuff that needs it own foundation to even work well (down hole mud motors, spiral rotors 20 - 30 ft long and 6-12 inches in diameter, MWD tools with nuclear power sources 20ft long and 1,500 - 3700lbs - really big stuff with 200+ hours of machining time).

Also SB's are great lathes, you got a winner there....a LOT better than a Grizzly, also new SB's like your 10L go for 4.5K so you got a great deal.

I too would be interested in your build process, and you're a lot farther along in the smithing than I am. Every product has its nuances, and there are tricks of the trade/product that I'm sure you have over many including myself. No disrespect, and envious of your SB lathe for less than $2K. Again no disrespect, and I do appreciate your feedback.
 
#8
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

UPDATE!

So I found a Grizzly G4003 lathe and bought it. This machine has got about 30 hrs of run time and only used to machine PVC plastic, so it has barely been used and the best part is I paid less than $1500.

This should serve me well, electricians are on the way over now to run power, and now I've got to start modifying it to get a little better work out of it.

I think its going to take me a little while to get tooled up and my processes down but I'm really looking forward to building some great rifles with guy.

lathe.jpg
 
#10
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

Curtis you can get get your FFL and make your money back making Suppressors and tact knobs.

That was a good find. There are plenty of retired machinist around here you can hire one or two days a week to turn them out.
 
#11
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don-n-Texas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Curtis you can get get your FFL and make your money back making Suppressors and tact knobs.

That was a good find. There are plenty of retired machinist around here you can hire one or two days a week to turn them out. </div></div>

making cans? you make it sound like it just a simple step in order to do that. Check into the license cost of manufacture restricted items, manufacture license, and what other fees are involved in making cans. Not to mention the liability insurance.
 
#14
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinarms</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don-n-Texas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Curtis you can get get your FFL and make your money back making Suppressors and tact knobs.

That was a good find. There are plenty of retired machinist around here you can hire one or two days a week to turn them out. </div></div>

making cans? you make it sound like it just a simple step in order to do that. Check into the license cost of manufacture restricted items, manufacture license, and what other fees are involved in making cans. Not to mention the liability insurance. </div></div>

So I guess no one does it because it's so hard it's impossible to do.

Life is so hard to much trouble maybe we should just quit. lol





 
#15
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

Hard? how did you get that? Expensive and profitable making a few cans? hell no. I am saying it is illegal to do unless you have all of the proper licenses. I wouldn't even think about making cans unless I was going to do high production just to offset. But I guess if you want to piddle around and make a few cans in your garage go right ahead I won't stop you. The ATF might but thats ok because you were able to make a few cans for cheap.
 
#16
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

If it was me I would replace all the fasteners with good quality american stuff bc you know they are import junk and you will cuss when you twist them off. It will happen I've seen it many times on the grizzly. Save the pita headaches now. Take it for what its worth.
 
#18
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cap-Kilo66</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I found a Grizzly G4003 lathe and bought it.
lathe.jpg
</div></div>

I have that same lathe, but branded as a Birmingham rather than a Grizzly.
I bought it new in 2005.
I have used it a lot(for a garage lathe, not a shop lathe), probably an average 5 hrs per week, every single week.
I figure there's an honest 1500+ hours on it.
My spindle bearings now have 0.0001" of cyclic runout that I can never eliminate.
This cyclic runout is right at 1/2 the spindle speed so I know it's just part of the roller bearings not being equal diameters on all sides of the spindle.
Other than that, it's been a great lathe.
I often wish I had a 40" bed and a foot brake so I can see upgrading to a 14x40 in the next year or two.

shop2.jpg
 
#19
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: STR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That will do for now. Wait until the bug really bites you. LOL.</div></div>

Ohh yeah!!! You are not kidding. I'm a Mfg Engineer by education and know my way around machine shops. Its one thing doing shop management with an established company with a budget, but when its your $$$ the tooling gets a little harder splurge on. Where you are also going with that is precision bearings and more rigidness, which yes I would love that, but to get what I really want, I need to pool inventors together and just by and existing machine shop where I can eventually do both; manufacturing and gunsmithing.

As far as cans go........my official answer is I will do nothing with cans unless I get the approved Form 1 and needed licenses. Yes, the cost is considerable.

So for now, its going to be used on rifles and other projects.

@2156SMK: this lathe has .0001" as well, and I think that is ok for what I need.
 
#21
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emouse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> you gonna hold super tight tolerances on a lathe with a rusted bed???


:-(</div></div>

I've already been reconditioning it, there's no more rust now, machined test and lathe setup pieces with great results holding .0001" tolerances easy, I'm sure with a little finess I can get down to .00005". It's hard to measure anything better than that and do we really need anything better than .0001"? I don't think I do. So I'm happy with it.
 
#22
Re: Do Smiths Ever Sell Lathes on the Hide?

I have to say I am a little jealous of you guys being able to do your own work on guns. No shipping, waiting on the smith, hoping someone you don't know is doing a quality job, that would be nice!
 
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