- Thread starter Golfnut721
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The information in the link was included only as illustrative of results achieved with a good rifle/barrel and good ammo. It wasn't prescriptive or a recommendation. No one needs to prioritize composite groups over any other, whether it's 25 or 40 round or something else. Of course, a chronograph is never necessary to see how an ammo shoots.
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With good shooting match ammo, few feel the need to pay attention to ES and SD at distances such as those in RFBR -- 50 yards. In any event, good shooting ammo won't have wild swings over the chronograph.
At increasing distances, ES and SD may matter more and more -- especially if the soft lead .22LR bullets actually go where their respective MVs predict. The problem is that, even without wind, they too often do not. And that's an issue that has little to do with ES and SD.
IDK about that granted the farthest I have shot in competition is 100 yds. but same ammo used at 50 shot great at 100. so, what I am saying is good will shoot good no matter so not knowing the SD/ES doesn't matter what the results are what you should be looking for no matter the distance.At some arbitrary distace X, yes it will matter.
Lee
You posted the link for? I posted what I believe in that composite groups are an inaccurate means to compare how a lot or rifle will shoot.
so, if SD/ES is all over the place in a lot of ammo wouldn't it show bad results regardless of distances? do you need the readings of SD/ES of that lot to tell /confirm the lot is not good after seeing on the target how bad it shot. can someone explain why they would need the readings to convince them the lot is bad.
Lee
I'm with you. It does not matter what the SD/ES is. If has a ES of 2 and a SD of 1. You still have to shoot it on targets. Shooting is the final goal, why not start there.
Take the older Norma Tac22, it shoots good ( not great )at 50yds. at 100yds you start to see vertical, at 200yds you see a mil of vertical, at 300yds you may see 2 mils of vertical. 50% of the rounds hit the targets, but 50% will be high or low. I don't need to see the ES/SD to know I not going to shoot it for long range.
You can start there and what you say is valid for 50 yard shooting. ES and SD are very telling at long range. Your ammo cannot overcome these over a long string. They become critical beyond 100 yards regardless of your 50 yard accuracy.
I personally think it becomes critical past 50yds. I have two rifles that will shoot CCI SV (I know it's cheap ammo) lights out inside 50yds. Took that ammo to a monthly silhouette match where the first target line is at 82yds and proceeded to miss some of those targets. I went to Eley ammo and the problem (mostly) went away. I still get the occasional weird flyer, but I'm not running the big bucks stuff, just Eley Club, so it's to be expected unfortunately.
I completely agree but some are not as critical as you and I. Beyond 100 yards it’s obvious to all.
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Yep, this is true for sure.
For those of us that shoot long range with 22rf its the vertical at distance that matters.
Latest example was a friend using his Anschutz 54 and running out of his good stuff/SK that did sub 1/2" at 50Y and would put most shots on our 200Y steel donkey that is 5" from belly to back.
He gets out his new stuff, also SK, trying it for the first time at 200Y, and it was pitiful trying to hit that same target. No the new stuff didn't do as well at 50Y, like .6-7" when zeroing but still not horrible for the regular guy.
Probably a perfect storm of high ES, and mentioning this because of the big flyers at 200Y which were ugly, also not so good in precision at 50Y.
I don't use a chrono either, and I'm not a BR shooter, so I don't need one holer's at 50Y but the ammo needs to put hits on reasonably sized steel at distance.
Even so its gets a bit silly shooting these 22rf's way past what they should be expected.
Just thought I'd put this in here for fun, and OT a bit, but I have a pcp air rifle that competes very well with my Anschutz 22rf at distance. It sends a 60gr, .245 G1BC, 25 cal, lathe turned pure lead boat tail bullet/slug at 862 fps with ES of 10 and is superior to 22rf in the wind. Wow, right?! However its not sub MOA at 100Y, more like just over MOA, and not built anywhere close to a Vudoo or Anschutz, etc in qaulity.
I did this very unoffcial test with it on a windy day at 421Y, 12 shots and 12 hits using a 3 MIL holdoff. I couldn't see where I was hitting but could hear the thwack on steel so was obviously hitting low. Also a wobbly, goofy, bench was used. This was just for a fun first try and I think it could be improved upon a lot.
The white circle is around 11" in size. Hey look a nick on the dick, I meant to do that, JK, lol
Not too bad for a BB gun.
Latest example was a friend using his Anschutz 54 and running out of his good stuff/SK that did sub 1/2" at 50Y and would put most shots on our 200Y steel donkey that is 5" from belly to back.
He gets out his new stuff, also SK, trying it for the first time at 200Y, and it was pitiful trying to hit that same target. No the new stuff didn't do as well at 50Y, like .6-7" when zeroing but still not horrible for the regular guy.
Probably a perfect storm of high ES, and mentioning this because of the big flyers at 200Y which were ugly, also not so good in precision at 50Y.
I don't use a chrono either, and I'm not a BR shooter, so I don't need one holer's at 50Y but the ammo needs to put hits on reasonably sized steel at distance.
Even so its gets a bit silly shooting these 22rf's way past what they should be expected.
Just thought I'd put this in here for fun, and OT a bit, but I have a pcp air rifle that competes very well with my Anschutz 22rf at distance. It sends a 60gr, .245 G1BC, 25 cal, lathe turned pure lead boat tail bullet/slug at 862 fps with ES of 10 and is superior to 22rf in the wind. Wow, right?! However its not sub MOA at 100Y, more like just over MOA, and not built anywhere close to a Vudoo or Anschutz, etc in qaulity.
I did this very unoffcial test with it on a windy day at 421Y, 12 shots and 12 hits using a 3 MIL holdoff. I couldn't see where I was hitting but could hear the thwack on steel so was obviously hitting low. Also a wobbly, goofy, bench was used. This was just for a fun first try and I think it could be improved upon a lot.
The white circle is around 11" in size. Hey look a nick on the dick, I meant to do that, JK, lol
Not too bad for a BB gun.
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Lee, the link was included only to show four small ten shot groups. That's all it was meant to illustrate. It wasn't a recommendation for or against composite groups. Don't make an issue out of nothing.
A chronograph isn't necessary to see how an ammo shoots.
Nice shooting! And most likely even the cheapest regulated air rifle will crush a .22lr in consistency shot to shot.For those of us that shoot long range with 22rf its the vertical at distance that matters.
Latest example was a friend using his Anschutz 54 and running out of his good stuff/SK that did sub 1/2" at 50Y and would put most shots on our 200Y steel donkey that is 5" from belly to back.
He gets out his new stuff, also SK, trying it for the first time at 200Y, and it was pitiful trying to hit that same target. No the new stuff didn't do as well at 50Y, like .6-7" when zeroing but not still horrible for the regular guy.
Probably a perfect storm of high ES, and mentioning this because of the big flyers at 200Y which were ugly, also not so good in precision at 50Y.
I don't use a chrono either, and I'm not a BR shooter, so I don't need one holer's at 50Y but the ammo needs to put hits on reasonably sized steel at distance.
Even so its gets a bit silly shooting these 22rf's way past what they should be expected.
Just thought I'd put this in here for fun, and OT a bit, but I have a pcp air rifle that competes very well with my Anschutz 22rf at distance. It sends a 60gr, .245 G1BC, 25 cal, lathe turned pure lead boat tail bullet/slug at 862 fps with ES of 10 and is superior to 22rf in the wind. Wow, right?! However its not sub MOA at 100Y, more like just over MOA, and not built anywhere close to a Vudoo or Anschutz, etc in qaulity.
I did this very unoffcial test with it on a windy day at 421Y, 12 shots and 12 hits using a 3 MIL holdoff. I couldn't see where I was hitting but could hear the thwack on steel so was obviously hitting low. Also a wobbly, goofy, bench was used. This was just for a fun first try and I think it could be improved upon a lot.
The white circle is around 11" in size. Hey look a nick on the dick, I meant to do that, JK, lol
Not too bad for a BB gun.
View attachment 8262723
Because this is rimfire, there is nothing you can do about the bullets. Less respected/lower quality ammo usually has larger ES and SD because quality control or manufacturing consistancy isn't as good. However, what if it produced single digit ES or SD but poor bullet quality produced groups that were unacceptable? That would mean that good ES and SD numbers don't mean buttcuss!
It is all a combination of quality bullets, consistent and repeatable manufacturing processes. Being able to accurately measure bullet velocities' is our only way to look at the quality of the ammo we are shooting.
It is all a combination of quality bullets, consistent and repeatable manufacturing processes. Being able to accurately measure bullet velocities' is our only way to look at the quality of the ammo we are shooting.
Here you go! just as it was when I found that lot of Cx1117 getting ready at Lapua's Mesa center and the test results. rifle is a 1st Gen Baity Falcon. the barrel in the picture shot that 20-shot group a new BM 3G barrel shot the two 5-shot groups with the CX 1962 & 1117 but this is not my dream rifle.
a 1965 1411 Anschutz Match 54 is what could be called my sexy rifle that CX 1962 lot did a 11mm group at the center. the same rifle shot this 50-shot group at 100 yds. with a lot CX 1913 first time shot in the rifle.
Lee
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I am trying to understand the importance of knowing a lot's SD/ES. this being that it is rimfire past 50 yds. doesn't a shooter have to dial in a bit of MOA to get decently POA/POI? we are talking what 1100 fps max. so isn't the bullet's flight path in an arc? so, the bullet at longer distances is coming down to the POA sight line to get the POI impact dialed in? a shooter is essentially lobbing the rounds to the target. so how much does gravity change the SD/ES that was measured at the muzzle if it does at all?
Lee
Lee
Brian Litz really needs to write some articles on 22LR
My understanding he is a CF shooter. how many RF rounds do you think he has shot to be able to make an assessment on the .22LR?Brian Litz really needs to write some articles on 22LR
I have seen the pushback on his tuner testing for RF. you can't compare CF to RF as has been pointed out by grauhanen big difference between a soft lead bullet and a jacketed one.
Lee
For my Anschutz 1827F with Polar Biathlon ammo when shooting a target at 300Y with a 50Y zero =
If at 1110 fps my ballistic calculator shows 124.5" drop, vs if 50 fps slower at 1060 fps its 133.8" of drop, so theoretically 9.3" of difference. That represents normal ?ES? with a decent 50 round box of 22rf match ammo.
So it depends on the size of the steel target at distance we're trying to hit while hoping to get a edge hit due to the size of the vertical dispersion.
Nowadays I'm just messing around at long range so I'm not buying tested ammo like I did before but yes the Polar Biathlon ammo that I chose based on groups at the test center shot better at 50Y, 100Y, and father out. My current Wolf MT is almost as good but I lucked out and got a decent batch.
So, you based performance over knowing the SD/ES as I don't believe at Lapua they provided any chronograph or SD/ES information. what they do provide is group size and POI information such distance for POI to POI it stands to reason a lot that shoots small at one distance 50 yds. in this case will shoot comparably in size to the increased distance.
I noticed no one has yet answered my question on gravity and if this would have any effect on the measured SD/ES at the muzzle.
Lee
Very unusual question.
The short answer is not at all.
A longer answer is that if you could mathematically determine some tiny effect the actual change would be lost in the noise.
I’m not sure if you are a MIT scientist looking to prove an obscure theoretical point or just someone lost in the weeds. It’s obvious the net effect is nil.
A ballistic chronograph is a diagnostic tool to assist in trajectory analysis.
If you are working on understanding the "why," it's useful.
For testing to find ammunition to produce the best results, unnecessary.
As has been repeated ad infinitum, the targets tell you what works, what doesn't.
I found that MV relates directly to my vertical spread on target
when wind and cartridge defects don't interfere.
At 100 yards, 10 fps difference shows 1/4 inch of vertical spread.
40 fps will show an inch with quality 22lr.
At 200 yards, 1 fps causes 1/10th inch difference in vertical.
40 fps will show 4 inches, before wind or bullet defects affect results.
If you are working on understanding the "why," it's useful.
For testing to find ammunition to produce the best results, unnecessary.
As has been repeated ad infinitum, the targets tell you what works, what doesn't.
I found that MV relates directly to my vertical spread on target
when wind and cartridge defects don't interfere.
At 100 yards, 10 fps difference shows 1/4 inch of vertical spread.
40 fps will show an inch with quality 22lr.
At 200 yards, 1 fps causes 1/10th inch difference in vertical.
40 fps will show 4 inches, before wind or bullet defects affect results.
Nope I chronoed after I got the case of ammo to get the velocity then chose bc based on actual drops.
It shot well enough to 300Y and a bit farther.
So to me the ammo met my requirements.
Decent enough in every way and it helped me to win a fair amount of NRL22 matches as well as placing high in some longer range outlaw matches.
I think you are confused on what I said. you bought a lot of ammo based off the test center performance results. you only knew what the chronograph numbers were after you got the case.
unless you are saying no matter how it shot at the center you would have bought anything?
Lee
Now you are just argumentative to support your opinion. Right or wrong, it’s neither proving anything nor worthy of doing. Drop it already.
Nope I don't think so, I quote what was wrote earlier-
I did before but yes, the Polar Biathlon ammo that I chose based on groups at the test center shot better at 50Y, 100Y, and father out.
so, I am just trying to see if I misunderstood what was wrote. why does it matter to you?
there are two schools of thought here, one uses actual on target result performance and the other SD/ES numbers. I get the reason for long distance shooting wanting to know.
Lee
Maybe, just maybe, both things matter. Maybe not to you. Maybe not to some. But if you are shooting long range and don’t care about anything but that you paid somebody to choose your ammo, then maybe you have more money than sense.
It matters to me because in this whole thread there have been two considerations by two different interests going on. Those that believe that knowing the potential of an ammo at distance is important, and those that have no reason to care.
It truly boils down to that.
Yes, of course it’s most important how a particular batch of ammunition groups on paper. And yes, results on target will determine whether you use that ammo. But just why in the fuck are you all so dead set against using statistical predictors like ES/SD to help you out? Are you all just anti-science/technology?
Or is it that you are just so set in your ways that there can only be one way…the traditional way. To get from point A to point B?
It’s a fair question.
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Hi-NV shooter is coming off some what like a troll.
At some distance X for any ballistics problem, the SD of MV will matter, because of basic math. The solution itself starts to get sensitive to the initial conditions, or show a sensitive dependence on initial conditions.
If one shoots nothing but BR at 50 or 100M, its possible one doesn't need to involve themselve in any of this, since once they are zeroed at competition distance, they don't even need to dial turrets, etc.
The predicate for having any real discussion here is being in a situation that you are actually needing a ballistic solution, and not just a trivial solution (eg a zero for a single condition) but a full array of solutions (eg "zeroes" for multiple distances, Temps, MVs, etc).
Then, and only then, once you understand when, where, and ballistics are relevant, and when, where, and why initial conditons are relevant to solving the ballistic solutions. From there, an ES/SD type variable is obviously imporant-- as "descriptive statistics" of the initial conditions.
At some distance X for any ballistics problem, the SD of MV will matter, because of basic math. The solution itself starts to get sensitive to the initial conditions, or show a sensitive dependence on initial conditions.
If one shoots nothing but BR at 50 or 100M, its possible one doesn't need to involve themselve in any of this, since once they are zeroed at competition distance, they don't even need to dial turrets, etc.
The predicate for having any real discussion here is being in a situation that you are actually needing a ballistic solution, and not just a trivial solution (eg a zero for a single condition) but a full array of solutions (eg "zeroes" for multiple distances, Temps, MVs, etc).
Then, and only then, once you understand when, where, and ballistics are relevant, and when, where, and why initial conditons are relevant to solving the ballistic solutions. From there, an ES/SD type variable is obviously imporant-- as "descriptive statistics" of the initial conditions.
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No, I am not a troll, but seems like there are a few on this thread. I stated before the longest distance I have shot at in competition is 100 yds. and yes, I am old school where results are all that matters. call me a troll if I ask questions that seem to bunch up a few people's shorts. I can take any of my good shooting lots and dial in the MOA when I shoot at 100 yds. I might be off a click or two but most times I am on the money. I have no clue what kind of numbers any of the lots would show on a chronograph. maybe I am misunderstanding all of this.
so, if you know a lot of ammo has big SD/ES would you still shoot it in competition? quote-
At some distance X for any ballistics problem, the SD of MV will matter, because of basic math. The solution itself starts to get sensitive to the initial conditions, or show a sensitive dependence on initial conditions.
Am I misunderstanding this statement? if you know a lot of ammo has a wide SD you can calculate out this margin and still use that lot? are you making turret adjustments as you shoot different distances?
Lee
My questions were based off what Justin stated in post 8-
Does muzzle velocity affect trajectories? Yes.
Differences in time of flight changes the amount of time gravity pulls down on the projectile.
Those time differences affect the vertical location of the point of impact.
Is muzzle velocity the only factor that affects vertical spread? No.
Wind, barrel harmonics, bullet symmetry/balance and heel damage
can cause vertical spread also, either added to or subtracting from that caused by gravity.
Muzzle velocity differences always cause vertical spread, but can be hidden by the other factors.
So, if SD/ES as measured will affect the vertical dispersion. has anybody factored in gravity? correct me if I am wrong but I believe you are saying gravity has very little to no effect.
and believe me I am no scientist; in fact, I have been called the complete opposite. because what I can achieve with a tuner is against physics! funny thing is when I explain to those who ask, and they apply the same methods it works for them too.
Lee
Time of flight from muzzle to target determines the amount of drop, right?
Gravity is 386.09 inches squared.
Time of flight can be obtained by direct measurement with optical sensors
or approximated using a ballistic calculator.
Drop = 1/2 x 386.09 x time of flight squared.
Calculate drop1 with the faster mv
Calculate drop2 with slower mv
Subtract drop2 from drop1, that's y'er vertical spread, correct?
Gravity is 386.09 inches squared.
Time of flight can be obtained by direct measurement with optical sensors
or approximated using a ballistic calculator.
Drop = 1/2 x 386.09 x time of flight squared.
Calculate drop1 with the faster mv
Calculate drop2 with slower mv
Subtract drop2 from drop1, that's y'er vertical spread, correct?
Ugh.
LOL. "factored in gravity"? What the fuck do you think is causing bullet drop?
Threads like this always seem to have input from people with no intention of stretching the limits of 22LR yet can be the most vocal. I've seen ammo that is fantastic at 50 and 100 yards that is total garbage by 300 yards. I had a lot of Eley Match that shot unbelievable at 200 but by 400 was falling apart. I tried tuning it, EC V2, no avail.
I may be in this category that doesn't embrace numbers so much with 22LR. Mostly because I can't control the production of the ammo I use. I bought the ammo for one of 2 reasons, I wanted inventory, or it proved itself on target. Let's concentrate on the proven ammo.
I shoot an awful lot from 300-600 yards with 22LR, both my 16tw Vudoo and 13tw Rim X have the majority of vertical dispersion tuned out on calm days. But, the lot of RWS R50 I shoot in the Rim X has roughly between an 17-20% failure of bullets that drop considerably short at 600 yards, but the rest hold a very respectable vertical, and it is not outside variables influencing it, it is ammo. So, my ES and SD can't be good, but yet I feel there is still no need to know them, and here is why.
I pick up the misses, and I know why that shot impacted low, even if 2-3 consecutive shots are low, but if my wind hold stays sound, because I know my vertical is sound, with little change in conditions, no reason to chase the miss. I don't shoot big steel, I like 12" and 8" at 600 yards, but if wind is up, I have plates of all sizes if need be.
I know my train of thought is narrow here, and it doesn't mean down the road I may that I may change my mind. Being my ELR rifles have tuners on them, I shy away from testing with my magneto hanging off the end of the barrel. and I fucking hate a Labradar, and if I ever get mine back from a friend who borrowed it, I am going make it a target at 500 yards.
But I surely understand your stance on this.
Now, I had a 9tw Lilja barrel I wanted to try, it sat for a while as I read what a waste it could be. I shipped it off and had a prefit made. All, I am into it for 1100. Last week in pretty good winds, I took it out, set targets at 2 & 600 yards, shooting non tested ammo, just old samples that needed blasted, it shot extremely well at 200. Full value left wind, 10-15mph, I saw some results at 600 that now I know why 9tw is not preferred so much.
But, I may spin the barrel off this week, shelve it, but to amortize my losses, and have some fun with it next yr, am going to buy some of those cutting edge solid 42gr bullets and roll my own ammo. A chrono will be one of the major components in this endeavor, just so you may not think of me as a total fucking idiot.
I understand now you sit up there om your throne where you wish not to explain to someone who never shoots past 100 never thinks about a numbers.Ugh.
LOL. "factored in gravity"? What the fuck do you think is causing bullet drop?
just like some of the design engineers I have run across in the past. and when I explain the mistakes in their design, they just make like they never heard what I said. but make the changes and use it for future manufacturing.
Lee
You are taking this way too personally. This is snipers hide, where it takes 100 posts to decide what rings are suitable for an application.
I have a fair amount of respect for your posts, it's apparent you understand your game.
Friendly advice, let this shit show play out, no one is going to come out the champ here.
I think what Lee is getting at are variations in gravitational pull due to inconsistent magma temps and density of the earth’s crust as related to position and phase of the moon.
Good point. But he forgot about the effects of Coriolis…
But Coriolis is so pedestrian to this high level conversation.
Look, here we have a man who changes physics with a tuner. Not sure if he does so on his rifle or places one on the North Pole and one on the South Pole? This is high level.
Perpetual motion and turning lead into gold are just around the corner.
This was around a decade ago when I had the test done. Back then I hadn't even shot to 200Y yet. Later on I tried different 22rf ammo and what I noticed was this and I'm a very unofficial tester so here it goes;
Some ammo shot great at 50Y though no better than my PB ammo but fell behind at 100Y and not so great at 200Y.
Some ammo shot okay at 50, 100, and 200Y. By ok I mean I wouldn't use it in a match but it would work for practice or fun without getting too frustrated.
Much of the other ammo's were best used for plinking or for speed shooting with 10-22's or in pistols.
Unfortunately ammo was getting more expensive and harder to find so I went through my good ammo quicker but by that time I had quit competing in 22rf matches anyway.
Although I rarely used a chrono to see SD or ES I would mostly rate ammo as acceptable pretty much based off hit ratios on steel at distance because I enjoyed that type of shooting more.
We have a lot of smaller steel from 25Y out to 190Y and I often try to run them from closest to farthest without missing but it doesn't happen with the "just ok" ammo actually only my PB had. Using my Wolf MT I'll miss a few.
Yes I assumed a lot???
I assumed the ES was decently acceptable because of the vertical of the ammo at distance and a lesser amount of flyers.
I assumed the PB was a good lot because there were VERY few of them that misfired compared to some of the other ammo's with a match designation and it was consistent in all ways.
I assumed the "just ok" ammo had higher ES or you can refer to the things Justin mentioned that could bring out poor results on target.
All that being said "IF" the PB had not worked as good as it did past 100Y I would have continued the search for better results at distance.
Can an ammo with not so great ES shoot well at 50Y in someones gun, of course, but it might not work out like one thinks it should farther out. But if it holds well at 100Y that's a good sign although will it win a 100Y match??, maybe not.
By 200Y you are getting a good indication if the vertical is falling apart or holding.
If the hit ratio has dropped by 300Y then one must decide whether to continue the search for something that holds better or not.
If having a choice in a match involving longer distances I'd want ammo doing decently all the way out. This ammo might not win a 50Y match, nor a 100Y match, but it holds out well enough to stay on steel father out. Personally I'd rather miss because of a wind call vs annoying flyers in the vertical.
I'm not arguing I'm instead telling my story. Take what you will or not.
I will say this. You can't relate until you try it farther out because rimfire ammo is weird stuff.
Thanks Milo, maybe my questions were too stupid and ridicules. I don't know just trying to understand.
Lee
Nah being part of the management team I have a say. FYI, the engineers were from equipment manufacturers. who never had to repair a piece of equipment or explain to a customer why it keeps malfunctioning!
Lee
People get a little passionate about things, you, and all of us entered a sensitive topic, lol
I've really come to the conclusion that unless the need to know is so strong, I try figure it out myself, do what works for me, until it doesn't, then try something else.
You seem to shoot accurate systems, go shoot 3-400 yards someday, pay attention to what unfolds. On calm days, even with lesser ammo, we all can be good. Be warned, things turn fast and conclusions come easy.
Let’s put this into perspective.
If you have an accurate ES&SD for your rifle and ammo determined over a few hundred rounds you can predict with near certainty what the minimum vertical dispersion will be for a 50 round box of ammo fired at a distance of 100 yards or more in perfect conditions. Other factors come into play only in a negative sense. You cannot out shoot your ammo over extended strings. No tuner will fix a big ES.
I can see no reason not to know this number.
If you have an accurate ES&SD for your rifle and ammo determined over a few hundred rounds you can predict with near certainty what the minimum vertical dispersion will be for a 50 round box of ammo fired at a distance of 100 yards or more in perfect conditions. Other factors come into play only in a negative sense. You cannot out shoot your ammo over extended strings. No tuner will fix a big ES.
I can see no reason not to know this number.
