Rifle Scopes Do you dial in from one direction?

[ShtrRdy]

I did a search and found a couple comments within a discussion thread but I thought I'd ask a general question.

Is it a good practice to dial in elevation or windage from one direction to avoid the effects of backlash or hysteresis?

 

[Mike]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

No

 

[Alaskaman11]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

Ok, I'll bite, what the hell are you talking about? backlash? hysteresis? Sometimes I'll holdover, some times I'll dial. Sometimes I'll pullout.

 

[CS95]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alaskaman 11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, I'll bite, what the hell are you talking about? backlash? hysteresis? Sometimes I'll holdover, some times I'll dial. Sometimes I'll pullout. </div></div> It is very apparent that you have no clue what he is talking about so why not learn when to listen and resist the urge to be a smart ass.

He is asking a very legitimate question.

To the OP. Generally it does not matter ,but I can tell you that every scope manufacturer and engineer I have ever talked to about this says that ALL scopes have some backlash. Although some more than others and generally most of the scopes these days have such minimal amounts that it goes unnoticed and for all practical purposes unmeasurable without expensive optical testing equipment.


So really it is up to you and how anal(for lack of better term) you want/need to be. Another thing I forgot to mention is that level of scope quality also affects this. So I would make the decision on the quality of scope you have and what type of shooting you are doing.

 

[Alaskaman11]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

My intent was not to be a smartass, I would like to understand what he means, so I educate me and not sound like a snob!

 

[AR4U]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alaskaman 11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My intent was not to be a smartass, I would like to understand what he means, so I educate me and not sound like a snob! </div></div>

If you thread a screw into a hole but don't bottom it out against something there will be a little back and forth play when you push/pull on it. The amount of play depends on the thread pitch and the precision to which the screw and the hole were threaded.

Your scope moves the reticle with screws. If you're adjusting up, rather than down, the crosshair winds up in a slightly different spot. In other words the point of impact will be *slightly* different if you dial from one direction or the other. That's backlash.

My gut feeling is that most halfway decent scopes, the error due to backlash is significantly less than the precision the rifle/shooter is capable of. If you're worried, the good news is that it's very easy to test.

 

[dcjs]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AR4U</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you thread a screw into a hole but don't bottom it out against something there will be a little back and forth play when you push/pull on it. The amount of play depends on the thread pitch and the precision to which the screw and the hole were threaded.

Your scope moves the reticle with screws. If you're adjusting up, rather than down, the crosshair winds up in a slightly different spot. In other words the point of impact will be *slightly* different if you dial from one direction or the other. That's backlash.</div></div>
The difference between your example and a scope is that the erector in a scope is spring loaded so it pushes the threads into one direction, so if the erector spring has the proper strength and there are no other mechanical problems, even some slop in the threads wouldn't necessarily lead to backlash at all.

If you want to worry about stuff, worry about scope knobs that move in and out when twisting them, because with such designs, every time the turrets get bumped, the precision threads that move the erector have to bear the full force of the impact.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sp95</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To the OP. Generally it does not matter ,but I can tell you that every scope manufacturer and engineer I have ever talked to about this says that ALL scopes have some backlash. Although some more than others and generally most of the scopes these days have such minimal amounts that it goes unnoticed and for all practical purposes unmeasurable without expensive optical testing equipment.

So really it is up to you and how anal(for lack of better term) you want/need to be. Another thing I forgot to mention is that level of scope quality also affects this. So I would make the decision on the quality of scope you have and what type of shooting you are doing.
</div></div>

Thanks for the info! I'll do a little experimentation to see if it matters on a Nikon Monarch scope. Thanks! - Todd

 

[ctressler]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

Yes Yes Yes, I always dial from the same direction.

Some might say the difference is small, but all the small things add up, especially are long range. I believe backlash maybe much less of an issue with higher end scopes, but I still stop in a direction that is compressing the internal spring.

You could check the play/backlash by doing a ladder test and dialing in different directions.

 

[springer01]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

I'm confused on how you dial from "one direction"? I mean one way is up one way down and then left and right. Someone explain please..

 

[AR4U]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: springer01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm confused on how you dial from "one direction"? I mean one way is up one way down and then left and right. Someone explain please.. </div></div>

Say you're at your zero, and you want to dial in 3 mils. You would dial up PAST 3 mils, then dial back down to the setting you want, 3 mils. You want to shoot a target farther out and you need 7 mils, so you dial up PAST 7 mils, then dial back down to 7 mil setting you actually want. Later on you want 0 mils again, so you dial back down to zero. You'll arrive at the final setting (0 mils) by dialing down. The idea is you always finish setting your scope by dialing in the same direction: down in my example.

In all honesty, if you can't measure a change in POI of your before and after groups when you do your box tests, it's a moot issue.

 

[Luke]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

There's usually not much backlash in the knobs but like others mentioned it wouldn't hurt to dial only one way. It takes all of a 1/2 second to dial a couple clicks past your desired setting and then go back again... Do what makes ya feel good.

 

[DT1]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

Wow, I learned something new by reading this thread. I've done a good bit of shooting at a lot of places, including RO, and never heard of this concept.

I can't imagine this is a practical consideration, particularly with a good quality scope under field conditions?

 

[Rob01]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

Don't think of it as learning something as it's not something that should have to be done.

 

[DannySeesUSMC]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

Sounds like something a benchrest guy would do with an old fixed 36x scope in between sips of coffee.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

On the higher end scopes I would question if we could even shoot the difference.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

Having been a machinist/mold maker, I always go past, if traveling in the opposite direction, and then come back to eliminate any backlash, I don't care if it's a mill, lathe, surface grinder, scope or whatever, it simply eliminates any additional incurred error.

 

[abersfelderami]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having been a machinist/mold maker, I always go past, if traveling in the opposite direction, and then come back to eliminate any backlash, I don't care if it's a mill, lathe, surface grinder, scope or whatever, it simply eliminates any additional incurred error.</div></div>

Good routine.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

I actually encountered this working at a government agencies sniper course. The rifles were old beat to shit M24's with the original M3A. < The M3A wasn't really a "great" scope IMO anyway and is totally obsolete today.

The rifles had potentially ~5000 adjustments on them and it was essential to come to a elevation correction from the same side of it every time if you wanted consistently repeatable results.

This is not normal IMO and should be a sign to send the scope in for an overhaul/scrap the optic and get a new one.

 

[doc76251]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

In a quality optic it is not nearly as important as a "shelf brand" but it is a good habit to get into none the less, IMHO.. I personally "dial to" my desired setting. If I miss I dial back and go at it again. Parallax is a different animal on side focus scopes of any maker. There are no "clicks" in parallax that I am aware of so you are stuck with thread pitch and spring tension w/o a defined stop. IMHO, I do as I do on knobs and dial to, if I miss I dial back and come at it again.

Just what I do, YRMV, IMHO etc.......

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Guest]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ShtrRdy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did a search and found a couple comments within a discussion thread but I thought I'd ask a general question.

Is it a good practice to dial in elevation or windage from one direction to avoid the effects of backlash or hysteresis? </div></div>

Try out a quality reticle, you might quit dialing altogether. Dialing is a waste of time, and you'll never be off a rev.

 

[JByrd]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

Buy a quality optic and forget about "hypo slop in adjustments" .dial up .8mils impact moves up .8mils end of story. Good glass,rifle,ammo and go shoot!

 

[pre64marksman]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I actually encountered this working at a government agencies sniper course. The rifles were old beat to shit M24's with the original M3A. < The M3A wasn't really a "great" scope IMO anyway and is totally obsolete today.

The rifles had potentially ~5000 adjustments on them and it was essential to come to a elevation correction from the same side of it every time if you wanted consistently repeatable results.

This is not normal IMO and should be a sign to send the scope in for an overhaul/scrap the optic and get a new one. </div></div>

I had reapetability issues with NIB mkm3. Got rid of it quick!
Amazing what soldiers were/are able to do shooting-wise inspite of the M24! They would have been better off with an m40!

 

[George63]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

I understand this to be mostly an issue with basic scopes that have side adjust AO, the AO adjustment is actually still in the front of the scope and is accomplished with wires/gears? that can lead to significant lash so go to infinity each time and come back to the desired setting

 

[dieselten]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

I did not see this mentioned, to do this correctly you don't just dial from one direction. It has to be the direction against the spring tension. Your final adjustment should be turning the dials into the scope.

That being said, I have not done it now for a long time... since I got some decent scopes. But if I had to roll with a Barska ... or a Leupold, then I would do this and feel better about where the shots were going.

 

[lroseen]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

If using a quality scope this is a non issue. Box test your scope if you have an issue send it in. Just my 2 cents.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pre64WINmarksman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Amazing what soldiers were/are able to do shooting-wise inspite of the M24! They would have been better off with an m40! </div></div>

I'm not sure what you mean by being better off with an M40, the M24 and M40 are essentially the same rifle. The M24 is long action, and the M40 is short action. Only real difference is the optics. The M3A isn't that bad considering the time it was designed and implemented into military inventory. The only real limitations are the ammo and the shooter. Don't get me wrong its about time we finally move to another optic.

 

[VaFarmer1]

Re: Do you dial in from one direction?

Hi ShtRrady
I was watching a youtube video the other day and they were passing then going back just like AR4U said in his post. At the time I wondered why. Now I know. The hide is a great place to learn.

Check it out it's a good video. Good hunting shots on pronghorn Elk etc.
YouTube : Greybull precision long range hunting