• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

D

dbooksta

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 22, 2009
267
11
PA
I was surprised to discover that Steyr's AUG is not drop-safe. A little discussion led to some disagreement on this subject.

So, without respect to laws or regs, in general do you expect quality rifles to be drop-safe when their manual safety is on?
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

I would like to think they are. But I'm not going to test any of my rifles. I know my Glock would not go off, but I'm not going to test it either. Not designing a drop-safe safety seems to me like negligence, especially in a military rifle.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bTalnzcO0xk"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bTalnzcO0xk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

Funny you mention military as an AR platform is not technically drop safe. The firing pin is free floating so if it were dropped muzzle down especially from high enough the inertia of the firing pin may cause the weapon to discharge. Is it likely no, possible yes. For that matter there is also the possibility of a slam fire as the bolt goes forward but once again the odds are very low and this is also one reason some people choose to go to a titanium firing pin.

The 240B and SAW are not drop safe either. If dropped horizontal to the ground the inertia may cause the sear to move releasing the bolt forward firing the weapon. Also unlikely but possible, especially on older weapons that more wear may have occurred on the sear. This Causes the distance the sear has to move to be considerably less.

Just some food for thought.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

I guess it can be tricky to confirm something is drop-safe since one of the classic failures is a non-captive/unbuffered firing pin that can develop enough momentum on a drop to hit and detonate the primer.

What I didn't expect to see is a gun where you can just look at the mechanism and see that it's not drop safe. In the case of the AUG the manual safety doesn't block any part of the trigger pack. They have a "drop-safety" lever labelled in the trigger pack, but if you poke at one in real life you can immediately see that it will only work if the rifle is dropped on its muzzle. Sure enough, pounding it on its butt hard enough releases the hammer (and you don't need a round loaded to see that happening).
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbooksta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, without respect to laws or regs, in general do you expect quality rifles to be drop-safe when their manual safety is on? </div></div>

Safety on or safety off, any weapon I intend to carry loaded better be able to hit the deck without going "boom". Otherwise it's not safe to carry.

Now I have no practical experience with the AUG design, so I can't say if it is, or is not in practical application.

Now you can "force" an otherwise "safe" platform to fire by applying much greater force than it is likely to see in the practical world. I.E. dropping an M16 muzzle down from the top of a building. However I would not automatically call it "unsafe".

Regarding the M249. I have not read any of the safety testing procedures prior to it's adoption, so I can't tell you what abuse the powers that be put it through. I can tell you that I have never had one ND when hitting the deck with it in full battle-rattle. I have seen numerous times when Private Schmuckatelli blamed the weapon for a discharge when he had his booger picker on the bag switch.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

Rifle $600
Gunsmith work $700
US Optics scope, $1500

Dropping your rifle to see if it will survive....not priceless!

I think the military makes you do pushups when yyou drop your rifle to prove a point, DON'T drop your rifle!

Maybe it will but who wants to take that chance..

Think Carlos Hathcock said something about that once....
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen numerous times when Private Schmuckatelli blamed the weapon for a discharge when he had his booger picker on the bag switch. </div></div>

There is so much win in that quote, it might have to make the sig line.

You have a way with words Mr. LoneWolfUSMC. Fantastic.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now you can "force" an otherwise "safe" platform to fire by applying much greater force than it is likely to see in the practical world. I.E. dropping an M16 muzzle down from the top of a building. However I would not automatically call it "unsafe".

Regarding the M249. I have not read any of the safety testing procedures prior to it's adoption, so I can't tell you what abuse the powers that be put it through. I can tell you that I have never had one ND when hitting the deck with it in full battle-rattle. I have seen numerous times when Private Schmuckatelli blamed the weapon for a discharge when he had his booger picker on the bag switch. </div></div>

I wouldn't call the M4/ M16 or AR variants unsafe either, I was just pointing out that the design itself does not preclude these weapons from firing when dropped on safe. It also does not take a much greater force otherwise slam fires would not happen. Consider the inertia of the weapon transfered to the firing pin over say 4 feet verses the inertia of a bolt moving forward over 4 inches. Don't get me wrong these are extremely rare in either case and your absolutely right it comes more than anything down to don't drop the rifle...

As far as the SAW Ive observed one fire from only a minor jarring. After we checked it out we found the sear was worn fairly significantly. Once again I wouldn't consider this weapon system unsafe, and with a good sear the chances are very unlikely. The point Im getting at is that on these weapon systems there is nothing within the safety itself to stop the sear from moving from the inertia of a fall. Both the saw and 240 safety are designed to stop the trigger from engaging the sear not to stop the sear from moving.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rifle $600
Gunsmith work $700
US Optics scope, $1500

Dropping your rifle to see if it will survive....not priceless!

I think the military makes you do pushups when yyou drop your rifle to prove a point, DON'T drop your rifle!

Maybe it will but who wants to take that chance..

Think Carlos Hathcock said something about that once.... </div></div>

where are you getting a USO for $1500? I'll start shopping there
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

I don't, nor does my rather large PD, consider any weapon without a firing pin safety plunger "drop safe."

If the pin is free floating it doesn't mean its likely, but its indeed possible if dropped right, subject to car crash in the trunk, etc. Any long guns my department uses are stowed chamber empty if no drop safety.

Why risk it. Would sure suck if you got rear ended on the way home from the range and put a round through the side of the car or the back of your seat at 2600+ per second.

Rich
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

Any rifle I plan to take in the field gets an informal "drop test." I slam the butt on the ground, simulating a fall from carrying height. If I do this several times without the firing pin dropping, it's safe enough for me. Now a fall where it lands horizontal or on the muzzle? Who knows.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

I never trust a safety. I was always taught to never trust a safety.

Don't keep the gun chambered and you don't have to worry about a safety.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

MAS-49, cheap! Never fired, only dropped once.

frenchsoldieroffortune.jpg


Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

I buttstroke my AEs on the floor to test a trigger adjustment. No safety engaged.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

I would say odds are if you drop an AUG hard enough to make it fire you will be glad it went off. If the fall didn't kill you you'd be praying for something finish you off.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

Frankly I'm surprised at these responses. We expect quality handguns (on "safe," where applicable) to survive virtually any single impact (not on the trigger) without discharging a loaded round. But when it comes to our rifles -- even military issue -- it seems to be, "Well, it'll probably be OK, but if you do drop it on a loaded chamber you deserve a ND."

Referring back to the AUG, for example, it would take more than a routine bump or fall from a table to release the hammer. But you can test the force required in the safety of your own home. If even "on-safe" slamming the butt against a concrete floor can both chamber a round and discharge it I don't understand why you'd be comfortable transporting it or charging into combat with a magazine loaded.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I buttstroke my AEs on the floor to test a trigger adjustment. No safety engaged.</div></div>

I do the same when testing old-style 700 triggers. So far i've been able to tune them without issue, and I consider them good if they can take several bangs on the floor without dropping the hammer. Each one is tested several times.

I trust my weapon not to go off if I drop it, but I also don't walk around with it hot unless i'm doing an active drill. The 700 safety is fast enough to use anyway, it's shroud safety's that suck IMHO.

Gas guns with the AR fire controls make it a non-issue to flip it on, same with my m14. I actually dropped my win 1200 12ga. last weekend when I slipped on a hull, no boom.

IMHO, tune 'em right or don't run 'em. A proper safety SHOULD physically block/lock the pin, but like anything else can fail. Redundancy FTW.

oh, and keep your booger hook off the bang switch.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbooksta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frankly I'm surprised at these responses. We expect quality handguns (on "safe," where applicable) to survive virtually any single impact (not on the trigger) without discharging a loaded round. But when it comes to our rifles -- even military issue -- it seems to be, "Well, it'll probably be OK, but if you do drop it on a loaded chamber you deserve a ND."

Referring back to the AUG, for example, it would take more than a routine bump or fall from a table to release the hammer. But you can test the force required in the safety of your own home. If even "on-safe" slamming the butt against a concrete floor can both chamber a round and discharge it I don't understand why you'd be comfortable transporting it or charging into combat with a magazine loaded. </div></div>


Because you don't transport a loaded firearm.

And when you charge into combat you only point the end that goes bang at the bad guys.

Why is this hard to grasp? Safeties as mentioned up come 2nd to the basic safety rules.

Too many buttheads out there continue to ignore the safety rules just because they put all their trust in the manual safety when all it really is a redundant safety.

ANY firearm can go off if dropped, even if it is .0001% of the time it's possible.

After the 4 basic safety rules a number 5 should be added.

5. Don't drop your shit.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After the 4 basic safeties rules a number 5 should be added.

5. Don't drop your shit.</div></div> You're a poet dude...scholar with words! Let's grab some beers.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Because you don't transport a loaded firearm.

And when you charge into combat you only point the end that goes bang at the bad guys.
</div></div>

I transport loaded firearms all the time. If they're handguns they're holstered, and usually attached to my body. If they're long-arms they're usually slung or else stowed within reach. However, if I'm in a vehicle a crash could cause a "drop"-like impact. And if I'm dismounted I can trip or hit the ground for all sorts of legitimate reasons, and try as I might that muzzle isn't always going to be pointed in my preferred direction.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why is this hard to grasp? Safeties as mentioned up come 2nd to the basic safety rules.

Too many buttheads out there continue to ignore the safety rules just because they put all their trust in the manual safety when all it really is a redundant safety.
</div></div>

My understanding was always that a manual safety is put on a gun for one of two reasons:
1. It's a handgun that's not drop-safe when holstered for carry.
2. It's a long-gun, so it's carried with an exposed trigger.

In both cases I assumed a gun on-safe was drop-safe. Otherwise we (and not just the Israelis) should always train to chamber a round whenever we bring a gun to the low- or field-ready, and then transition back to Condition 3 at the earliest possible opportunity. And don't trip or crash with a loaded round!
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbooksta</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Because you don't transport a loaded firearm.

And when you charge into combat you only point the end that goes bang at the bad guys.
</div></div>

I transport loaded firearms all the time. If they're handguns they're holstered, and usually attached to my body. If they're long-arms they're usually slung or else stowed within reach. However, if I'm in a vehicle a crash could cause a "drop"-like impact. And if I'm dismounted I can trip or hit the ground for all sorts of legitimate reasons, and try as I might that muzzle isn't always going to be pointed in my preferred direction.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why is this hard to grasp? Safeties as mentioned up come 2nd to the basic safety rules.

Too many buttheads out there continue to ignore the safety rules just because they put all their trust in the manual safety when all it really is a redundant safety.
</div></div>

My understanding was always that a manual safety is put on a gun for one of two reasons:
1. It's a handgun that's not drop-safe when holstered for carry.
2. It's a long-gun, so it's carried with an exposed trigger.

In both cases I assumed a gun on-safe was drop-safe. Otherwise we (and not just the Israelis) should always train to chamber a round whenever we bring a gun to the low- or field-ready, and then transition back to Condition 3 at the earliest possible opportunity. And don't trip or crash with a loaded round! </div></div>

Interesting things you point out.............however.

If the weapon is on your body it's not being transported. It's being carried. That includes weapons that are slung.

If you pointed your weapon in my direction even though you tried as hard as you could not to get ready to be corrected the hard way.

Furthermore, to prevent that possible "drop like" impact since for some reason you feel the need to transport firearms that are in condition one while in your vehicle. Maybe you should get wise and just have the mag inserted without a round in the chamber. I'm relatively sure that when the shit hits the fan and you feel you need to pull your rifle out of it's case to go to work that you'll have the .3 of a seconds time to rack the slide.

Keeping in mind I'd recommend that for a secondary go to weapon in a vehicle. Not a primary. But if your an everyday joe most likely your primary weapon in your vehicle is not a rifle. (Even cops). So condition 3 is just fine.

To continue on. Your assumptions will get you into trouble one of these days. And if you choose to just assume that your weapon is safe just because it's on safe........well bud good luck to you.

Oh and once again. If the 4 basic safety rules are followed no one gets shot accidently. Perhaps you should pay more attention to maintaining control of your firearms so that if and when you trip and fall you maintain the muzzle being pointed in a safe direction.

This whole discussion mildly reminds me of all those assholes that had a problem with the remington 700 triggers. Perhaps they were faulty, even so if everyone followed the safety rules (never point a firearm at anything you do not intend to shoot) no one would have gotten hurt.

hmm let me point this rifle at my foot and unload it---malfunction of the trigger------bang-----------no foot. Who's fault is that?? hahahahaha
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

I want my rifles "drop safe". They are gonna drop. I was a paratrooper, we jumped with our rifles, they had to be.

When I was in the Guard, I was also in LE. I carried a Counter-Sniper Rifle which was nothing more then a Remington BDL Var. in 223, with a fixed 6X Redfield,Widefield scope and redfield mounts and rings. Just for Shits and Giggles, I jumped it a couple times. It never lost its zero. That was years ago. I got it in '78. Now we are both retired and I regulated it to PDs and such. It still holds its zero.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

If it's not drop safe, even with the safety off, it gets corrected, or goes down the road.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

The 1.5 meter drop test is part of the military safety release. The weapon is dropped in five different orientations with a primed case in the chamber. The weapon is dropped a total of ten times.

Alan
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Moroni</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
where are you getting a USO for $1500? I'll start shopping there </div></div>

From USO, in 2001 dollars, scope, rings, base...$1485 delivered.

I forgot this was 2011, dang my scope is 10 years old!
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

any firearm is as safe as the user.

don't assume a safety will work in any instance, don't even trust an unloaded one.

many get killed or wounded a year handling an "unloaded" firearm.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

During MOB for my current deployment we had a guy in our brigade who had 3 NDs with is 240B before they got a clue and checked the sear. It had significant wear on it. It was probable 1 on maby 40 240Bs left in our brigade all the others are 240Ls thank god. much lighter gotta love titanium.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mortarguy5611</div><div class="ubbcode-body">During MOB for my current deployment we had a guy in our brigade who had 3 NDs with is 240B before they got a clue and checked the sear. It had significant wear on it. It was probable 1 on maby 40 240Bs left in our brigade all the others are 240Ls thank god. much lighter gotta love titanium. </div></div>

That wouldn't be an ND then. It wasn't his fault.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

I've spent a fair bit of time around Steyrs, and never seen one go off from being dropped. Quite a few go off due to peoples actions, but you can't put a safety on stupidity
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

The GAP-10's have a spring on the firing pin to prevent firing from inertia now...
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

YourMotherTrebek i guess i would have worded that different. he was accused of haveing two NDs until after the third one they looked into it. Thanks for the correction.
 
Re: Do you expect rifles to be drop-safe?

Ahhh roger that. understood


My 416 has the same type of spring on the firing pin to prevent AD's. Though I believe it's not intended as a drop safe precaution. More because they were getting AD's after loading the same round many times since the buffer spring is very tight on them. Even military primers were going bang after a bit.

But there was different reasoning behind than just making it "drop safe" though that seems to be an added benefit potentially.

I'd say mine is probably twice as hard to charge the weapon than any other I've used.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

R
Ever had the USPS steal a firearm you shipped?
Replies
26
Views
1K
RedBreast21
R
N
1989 Remington 700 ABL
Replies
8
Views
340
spife7980
spife7980
Z
Do you bother considering powder temperature shift?
Replies
8
Views
227
diggler1833
diggler1833
ZLBubba
Firearms TacOps Rifles For Sale: 338LM, 308 (SPF), 6.5CM (SPF)
Replies
11
Views
2K
Kohl604
Kohl604
Waingro45
SOLD WTS: HK 93A2 (IB '81) Pre-Ban w/Hensoldt Wetzlar ZF 4x24 **** PRICE DROP - $5199 OBO ***
Replies
1
Views
364
Waingro45
Waingro45
Top Bottom
Back