Notwithstanding the debate over whether it is better to full size brass or neck size brass, does anyone full size their brass and then neck size?
- Thread starter Bob 964
- Start date
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skep_tic1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That would be like using KY on one that is already wet....... </div></div>
But some people like them really wet.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skep_tic1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That would be like using KY on one that is already wet....... </div></div>
But some people like them really wet.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
When it is wet enough isn't it wet enough? What would be the point? If you FL size, you have already sized the neck.
When it is wet enough isn't it wet enough? What would be the point? If you FL size, you have already sized the neck.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
? Makes no sense. It's either FL sized or neck sized. A FL would be both right? I neck size all my bolt guns, and FL all my autos. I've used RCBS, Lyman, Redding, and I now use Lee collet, simple, cheap, and works great.
? Makes no sense. It's either FL sized or neck sized. A FL would be both right? I neck size all my bolt guns, and FL all my autos. I've used RCBS, Lyman, Redding, and I now use Lee collet, simple, cheap, and works great.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: groundhogbuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ? Makes no sense. It's either FL sized or neck sized. A FL would be both right? I neck size all my bolt guns, and FL all my autos. I've used RCBS, Lyman, Redding, and I now use Lee collet, simple, cheap, and works great. </div></div>
Hear me out. Using a full sizing die and bumping the shoulder 0.001" to 0.002" helps to ensure a consistent case configuration and consistent interior volume (and pressure and velocity) from one reloading to the next. Then using my lee collet neck sizing die would help to ensure a straight neck which minimizes runout. I know it's an extra step, but if the goal is consistency and accuracy, it would be worth it, assuming my logic is correct.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: groundhogbuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ? Makes no sense. It's either FL sized or neck sized. A FL would be both right? I neck size all my bolt guns, and FL all my autos. I've used RCBS, Lyman, Redding, and I now use Lee collet, simple, cheap, and works great. </div></div>
Hear me out. Using a full sizing die and bumping the shoulder 0.001" to 0.002" helps to ensure a consistent case configuration and consistent interior volume (and pressure and velocity) from one reloading to the next. Then using my lee collet neck sizing die would help to ensure a straight neck which minimizes runout. I know it's an extra step, but if the goal is consistency and accuracy, it would be worth it, assuming my logic is correct.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
How do you bump the shoulder without sizing the neck. Are you using a body die or bushing die with no bushing?
How do you bump the shoulder without sizing the neck. Are you using a body die or bushing die with no bushing?
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skep_tic1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your logic is wrong. The fl die sizes the neck as well </div></div>
Forgive me for not explaining my logic more clearly. I understand that the full sizing die sizes the neck as well. I am suggesting that the second pass with the lee collet die sizes the neck again, albeit straighter and with less runout than the full sizing die.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skep_tic1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your logic is wrong. The fl die sizes the neck as well </div></div>
Forgive me for not explaining my logic more clearly. I understand that the full sizing die sizes the neck as well. I am suggesting that the second pass with the lee collet die sizes the neck again, albeit straighter and with less runout than the full sizing die.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OlTexasBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you bump the shoulder without sizing the neck. Are you using a body die or bushing die with no bushing? </div></div>
You don't. I'm suggesting two separate neck sizing operations --- one with the full sizing die, a by-product of sizing the case and bumping the shoulder, and the second to size the neck straighter and with less runout.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OlTexasBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you bump the shoulder without sizing the neck. Are you using a body die or bushing die with no bushing? </div></div>
You don't. I'm suggesting two separate neck sizing operations --- one with the full sizing die, a by-product of sizing the case and bumping the shoulder, and the second to size the neck straighter and with less runout.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Perhaps I am ignorant, but assumed runout issues from sizing dies were due to the brass flowing unevenly causing one side to be thicker than the other. Your solution would not fix that. If the die cocks the neck off to one side your idea may have merit, but you would also add extra work hardening to the neck.
Perhaps I am ignorant, but assumed runout issues from sizing dies were due to the brass flowing unevenly causing one side to be thicker than the other. Your solution would not fix that. If the die cocks the neck off to one side your idea may have merit, but you would also add extra work hardening to the neck.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
I like them wet too, and your theory is well taken. However, all my dies are Lee and my FL dies hardly ever produce any runout over .003-.004. So I only FL size every fourth sizing. The rest of the time I use the lovely Lee collet NS die. Never have a round that won't chamber because I don't load hot. Contrary to the popular idea...velocity is not everything. The are other parts to the equation.
I like them wet too, and your theory is well taken. However, all my dies are Lee and my FL dies hardly ever produce any runout over .003-.004. So I only FL size every fourth sizing. The rest of the time I use the lovely Lee collet NS die. Never have a round that won't chamber because I don't load hot. Contrary to the popular idea...velocity is not everything. The are other parts to the equation.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Just some food for thought is the article written by German Salazar where he experiments with sizing the neck in 2 steps using a neck die and a FL die. Now granted they were both bushing dies and he would use a larger bushing on the first step and on the 2cnd step he would use the correct size bushing for your desired neck tension. He found by following this process he was able to minimize run out and even found that the order you use the dies made a difference as well. The order he found best results with was neck size first and FL size second. Anyways not exactly your same ideas/logic but definitely close to the your same way of thinking
Here the link to th article Two Step Sizing
Just some food for thought is the article written by German Salazar where he experiments with sizing the neck in 2 steps using a neck die and a FL die. Now granted they were both bushing dies and he would use a larger bushing on the first step and on the 2cnd step he would use the correct size bushing for your desired neck tension. He found by following this process he was able to minimize run out and even found that the order you use the dies made a difference as well. The order he found best results with was neck size first and FL size second. Anyways not exactly your same ideas/logic but definitely close to the your same way of thinking
Here the link to th article Two Step Sizing
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Yes but in reverse:
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html
and courtesy 427Cobra
(sorry for repeat of above)*
Yes but in reverse:
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html
and courtesy 427Cobra
(sorry for repeat of above)*
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FamilyMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just some food for thought is the article written by German Salazar where he experiments with sizing the neck in 2 steps using a neck die and a FL die. Now granted they were both bushing dies and he would use a larger bushing on the first step and on the 2cnd step he would use the correct size bushing for your desired neck tension. He found by following this process he was able to minimize run out and even found that the order you use the dies made a difference as well. The order he found best results with was neck size first and FL size second. Anyways not exactly your same ideas/logic but definitely close to the your same way of thinking
Here the link to th article Two Step Sizing </div></div>
Thanks! The article is helpful.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FamilyMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just some food for thought is the article written by German Salazar where he experiments with sizing the neck in 2 steps using a neck die and a FL die. Now granted they were both bushing dies and he would use a larger bushing on the first step and on the 2cnd step he would use the correct size bushing for your desired neck tension. He found by following this process he was able to minimize run out and even found that the order you use the dies made a difference as well. The order he found best results with was neck size first and FL size second. Anyways not exactly your same ideas/logic but definitely close to the your same way of thinking
Here the link to th article Two Step Sizing </div></div>
Thanks! The article is helpful.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
I full length new brass then shoot it, neck size then fire then full length then fire then neck, pretty simple. This is with brass going in the same rifle only.
I full length new brass then shoot it, neck size then fire then full length then fire then neck, pretty simple. This is with brass going in the same rifle only.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
If I put as much time in loading as many of you guys do, it is all I would ever have time to do. I literally mean no eating, no sleeping, no going to work, the grass would be head high, no beer, no sex and especially no shooting.
If I put as much time in loading as many of you guys do, it is all I would ever have time to do. I literally mean no eating, no sleeping, no going to work, the grass would be head high, no beer, no sex and especially no shooting.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Skep, you can't fix it brother, it will drive you insane trying.
To the OP. Yes. It has been tested. German Salazar did a study on sizing and runout using various steps. I would link it for you but I have to go to work.
Skep, you can't fix it brother, it will drive you insane trying.
To the OP. Yes. It has been tested. German Salazar did a study on sizing and runout using various steps. I would link it for you but I have to go to work.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Just found this, and it is consistent with what I was thinking --- "Preparing Cases for Long-Range Accuracy", by Jacob Gottfredson. His first step uses a full size or body die to force the shoulder and body into a standard configuration. This also permits the blade to bite into the shoulder the same distance for each case when turning the necks. His ninth step is neck sizing the cases to adjust the neck tension and length of sizing to produce the best groups. For those interested, here's the link:
http://www.6mmbr.com/jgcaseprep.html
Just found this, and it is consistent with what I was thinking --- "Preparing Cases for Long-Range Accuracy", by Jacob Gottfredson. His first step uses a full size or body die to force the shoulder and body into a standard configuration. This also permits the blade to bite into the shoulder the same distance for each case when turning the necks. His ninth step is neck sizing the cases to adjust the neck tension and length of sizing to produce the best groups. For those interested, here's the link:
http://www.6mmbr.com/jgcaseprep.html
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skep_tic1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I put as much time in loading as many of you guys do, it is all I would ever have time to do. I literally mean no eating, no sleeping, no going to work, the grass would be head high, no beer, no sex and especially no shooting. </div></div>
I think you're on to something here bud. The reason most of us post here is becuase we are totally bored from loading and have to vent. And we want the world to know how much fun and rewarding it is so we can recruit more loaders, that way we won't be the only lifeless fucks on the planet.
I tried the body sizing, then neck sizing, Fuck that. I bought full sizing bushing dies. Still keep the body die to size a loaded round if it won't chamber.
There is only so many steps a guy can stand to do without puking. I have 500rds of brass for every gun I shoot, if I get behind on the loading, it isn't hours, it's days to catch up.
And if the ADD kicks in, you can work on 2 calibers at a time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skep_tic1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I put as much time in loading as many of you guys do, it is all I would ever have time to do. I literally mean no eating, no sleeping, no going to work, the grass would be head high, no beer, no sex and especially no shooting. </div></div>
I think you're on to something here bud. The reason most of us post here is becuase we are totally bored from loading and have to vent. And we want the world to know how much fun and rewarding it is so we can recruit more loaders, that way we won't be the only lifeless fucks on the planet.
I tried the body sizing, then neck sizing, Fuck that. I bought full sizing bushing dies. Still keep the body die to size a loaded round if it won't chamber.
There is only so many steps a guy can stand to do without puking. I have 500rds of brass for every gun I shoot, if I get behind on the loading, it isn't hours, it's days to catch up.
And if the ADD kicks in, you can work on 2 calibers at a time.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
What interesting responses. I thought this was a fair question and had no idea it would hit the nerve it obviously hit with some of you. I'll try some other forums. Let's consider this thread CLOSED.
What interesting responses. I thought this was a fair question and had no idea it would hit the nerve it obviously hit with some of you. I'll try some other forums. Let's consider this thread CLOSED.
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
BOB, BOB, don't go away, I'm not done with you yet!!
BOB, BOB, don't go away, I'm not done with you yet!!
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Yes, I do. I do my prep work on a RL550, using a Type S neck bushing die in the first station, a FL body die in station 2, and a SB body die in Station 3. Number four is an Instant Indicator to verify that the shoulders have all been bumped properly. Not only seems to give better run-out measurement, but also adds some redundancy to ensure that I NEVER wind up with a round that's under sized by short-stroking the handle, or resizing too quickly. This is what I'm doing with 223 Rem Match ammo for my competition guns, and has worked out quite well. The break between sizing ops and charging/bullet seating allows for thorough case inspection (second time), trimming, etc..
Wouldn't do this for a lot of my other reloading, but the peace of mind is worth the extra mile when I'm going to be using it in matches.
Yes, I do. I do my prep work on a RL550, using a Type S neck bushing die in the first station, a FL body die in station 2, and a SB body die in Station 3. Number four is an Instant Indicator to verify that the shoulders have all been bumped properly. Not only seems to give better run-out measurement, but also adds some redundancy to ensure that I NEVER wind up with a round that's under sized by short-stroking the handle, or resizing too quickly. This is what I'm doing with 223 Rem Match ammo for my competition guns, and has worked out quite well. The break between sizing ops and charging/bullet seating allows for thorough case inspection (second time), trimming, etc..
Wouldn't do this for a lot of my other reloading, but the peace of mind is worth the extra mile when I'm going to be using it in matches.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Presuming that both the full length sizer, and the neck sizer are of good quality, there shouldn't be any difference in runout regardless of which one you use. However if your sizer is poor quality, and you use a Redding or Forster neck sizer die, you may gain a reduction in runout.
When using quality dies to begin with, the only reason I can think of to neck size after using a full length sizing die would be to get more neck tension. In that case, using a bushing with a smaller outside diameter than the diameter machined into the full length sizer die would make the neck tighter.
Otherwise, I think you are just adding another unnecessary step. But it won't hurt anything..
Presuming that both the full length sizer, and the neck sizer are of good quality, there shouldn't be any difference in runout regardless of which one you use. However if your sizer is poor quality, and you use a Redding or Forster neck sizer die, you may gain a reduction in runout.
When using quality dies to begin with, the only reason I can think of to neck size after using a full length sizing die would be to get more neck tension. In that case, using a bushing with a smaller outside diameter than the diameter machined into the full length sizer die would make the neck tighter.
Otherwise, I think you are just adding another unnecessary step. But it won't hurt anything..
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Bob, I have done what you are talking about in my learning what does what. I noticed by using a small bore gauge that the ID of my necks were uneven dimensionaly after FL sizing. No matter how many times, even after annealing, they still were wavy. I put them in a Lee collet sizer and bam they were smooth and straight. Did it help my accuracy.....Not sure. I had really decided to step up the loading program so many changes took place at the same time. Good post thanks everyone.
Bob, I have done what you are talking about in my learning what does what. I noticed by using a small bore gauge that the ID of my necks were uneven dimensionaly after FL sizing. No matter how many times, even after annealing, they still were wavy. I put them in a Lee collet sizer and bam they were smooth and straight. Did it help my accuracy.....Not sure. I had really decided to step up the loading program so many changes took place at the same time. Good post thanks everyone.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
I might have to bump my shoulders back with a Redding body die, when neck sizing with their bushing dies, but not always.
Chris
I might have to bump my shoulders back with a Redding body die, when neck sizing with their bushing dies, but not always.
Chris
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond. I'm gonna do it. I'll report my results.
Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond. I'm gonna do it. I'll report my results.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Interesting topic!
I came to the conclusion I will try FL sizing my cases twice, checking at the range to see if there is any noticeable difference. The way I shoot I doubt it will matter but since I'm still trying to become proficient I will experiment with this first.
As for time involved, I load pistol ammo on a progressive and bolt gun on a Rockchucker. Since I'm only doing 20 rds. at a time I don't figure I'll be at it long no matter how many new ideas I try. Might even find something that helps me be a better shooter!
Thanks for the post!
Interesting topic!
I came to the conclusion I will try FL sizing my cases twice, checking at the range to see if there is any noticeable difference. The way I shoot I doubt it will matter but since I'm still trying to become proficient I will experiment with this first.
As for time involved, I load pistol ammo on a progressive and bolt gun on a Rockchucker. Since I'm only doing 20 rds. at a time I don't figure I'll be at it long no matter how many new ideas I try. Might even find something that helps me be a better shooter!
Thanks for the post!
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Everything said above seems to suggest a case is a plastic thing that's totally controlled by each die we use. That isn't true; hard brass cases do have memory and spring back so it's unlikely that whatever variation the first die produces will completely disappear in successive steps.
The beauty of Lee's collet neck die is the finished necks will be as straight as each one can be made by sizing IF they are not 'bent' by a previous die. That's NOT really true of bushing dies. IMHO.
Everything said above seems to suggest a case is a plastic thing that's totally controlled by each die we use. That isn't true; hard brass cases do have memory and spring back so it's unlikely that whatever variation the first die produces will completely disappear in successive steps.
The beauty of Lee's collet neck die is the finished necks will be as straight as each one can be made by sizing IF they are not 'bent' by a previous die. That's NOT really true of bushing dies. IMHO.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
I follow the process outlined here:
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html
I follow the process outlined here:
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
All this talk about the Lee Collet die has really got me me second guessing the bushing dies I just purchased and haven't even had enough time to use yet . I think I am gonna just get one since they aren't that expensive along with a concentricity gauge and give it try and see what I find. I'll probably wanna shoot my myself in the end when I realize I could have saved the $$ I just dropped on bushing sizers and all the bushings for 2 different calibers!!!
Anybody know if Sinclair carries them? I couldn't find one when I searched
All this talk about the Lee Collet die has really got me me second guessing the bushing dies I just purchased and haven't even had enough time to use yet . I think I am gonna just get one since they aren't that expensive along with a concentricity gauge and give it try and see what I find. I'll probably wanna shoot my myself in the end when I realize I could have saved the $$ I just dropped on bushing sizers and all the bushings for 2 different calibers!!!
Anybody know if Sinclair carries them? I couldn't find one when I searched
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
There's a lot to be said for the lee collet die, if you use it in conjunction with a Redding body die you have a sound reloading set up for sure. I use them in everything I load for except 338lm and find it a fast and accurate way to resize.
There's a lot to be said for the lee collet die, if you use it in conjunction with a Redding body die you have a sound reloading set up for sure. I use them in everything I load for except 338lm and find it a fast and accurate way to resize.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Used lee collet die for 3x then had to bump with redding body die. Seems that I couldn't just bump, I had to full leghth the entire case. Now pet load for the ns only has changed! So I then moved .5 grains and got it back! I'll be full length sizing wit body die and lee collet ns from here on out to stay consistent!
Used lee collet die for 3x then had to bump with redding body die. Seems that I couldn't just bump, I had to full leghth the entire case. Now pet load for the ns only has changed! So I then moved .5 grains and got it back! I'll be full length sizing wit body die and lee collet ns from here on out to stay consistent!
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Ive got custom FL & NS dies for my 308 and 6 Creed, havent used the FL yet, might not have to unless the NS dies dont size my brass enough, havent had any issues after 3 firings.
Ive got custom FL & NS dies for my 308 and 6 Creed, havent used the FL yet, might not have to unless the NS dies dont size my brass enough, havent had any issues after 3 firings.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Use a Lee collet neck die ( which has been polished and tuned) then a Redding FL with no bushing.
Use a Lee collet neck die ( which has been polished and tuned) then a Redding FL with no bushing.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
In answer to the OP yes I do both on the same brass
In answer to the OP yes I do both on the same brass
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Assumptions:
1. I will use the 2-stage sizing process, as suggested by Mr. Salazar, neck sizing first and then full sizing.
2. The neck sizing die will be the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die.
3. The full sizing die will be the Lyman Full-Sizing Die I bought when I first started hand loading.
Questions:
1. Since the collets in the Lee die will straighten the neck around the mandrel and permit me to achieve a desired level of neck tension, won't pushing the expander ball in the Lyman die through the case mouth and then pulling it back through again mess up whatever alignment and tension I get from neck sizing first?
2. If "yes", then wouldn't I want to remove the expander ball from the full sizing die?
Assumptions:
1. I will use the 2-stage sizing process, as suggested by Mr. Salazar, neck sizing first and then full sizing.
2. The neck sizing die will be the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die.
3. The full sizing die will be the Lyman Full-Sizing Die I bought when I first started hand loading.
Questions:
1. Since the collets in the Lee die will straighten the neck around the mandrel and permit me to achieve a desired level of neck tension, won't pushing the expander ball in the Lyman die through the case mouth and then pulling it back through again mess up whatever alignment and tension I get from neck sizing first?
2. If "yes", then wouldn't I want to remove the expander ball from the full sizing die?
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stangfish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bob, I have done what you are talking about in my learning what does what. I noticed by using a small bore gauge that the ID of my necks were uneven dimensionaly after FL sizing. No matter how many times, even after annealing, they still were wavy. I put them in a Lee collet sizer and bam they were smooth and straight. Did it help my accuracy.....Not sure. I had really decided to step up the loading program so many changes took place at the same time. Good post thanks everyone.</div></div>
+1 same for me. i only FL every 3-4 reloads though. i neck size every time with the lee collet.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stangfish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bob, I have done what you are talking about in my learning what does what. I noticed by using a small bore gauge that the ID of my necks were uneven dimensionaly after FL sizing. No matter how many times, even after annealing, they still were wavy. I put them in a Lee collet sizer and bam they were smooth and straight. Did it help my accuracy.....Not sure. I had really decided to step up the loading program so many changes took place at the same time. Good post thanks everyone.</div></div>
+1 same for me. i only FL every 3-4 reloads though. i neck size every time with the lee collet.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob 964</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Assumptions:
1. I will use the 2-stage sizing process, as suggested by Mr. Salazar, neck sizing first and then full sizing.
2. The neck sizing die will be the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die.
3. The full sizing die will be the Lyman Full-Sizing Die I bought when I first started hand loading.
Questions:
1. Since the collets in the Lee die will straighten the neck around the mandrel and permit me to achieve a desired level of neck tension, won't pushing the expander ball in the Lyman die through the case mouth and then pulling it back through again mess up whatever alignment and tension I get from neck sizing first?
2. If "yes", then wouldn't I want to remove the expander ball from the full sizing die?
</div></div>
Forgive me if I'm missing something here and apologize if I've mis-read something, but I don't think you're getting the concept that Salazar is using in the article. He describes double neck sizing when using bushing dies (like Redding S bushing dies).
He describes using bushings that will size no more than about .005" in each sizing operation, depending on what brass you are using. Different manufacturers of brass will require different bushing sizes to get to the required .001"-.002" of neck tension.
I use a .337" S bushing for Federal brass, .335" for Remington and Speer brass, .333" for Hornady brass, .331" for winchester brass and a .329" for neck turned Winchester brass.
The necks in cases fired in my rifle expand out to about an outside diameter of .443". To get to the required .333" for my Hornady brass, I will first use a .337" bushing and then a .333" in the second necking to get to the .333".
That is the concept Salazar referring to. Not sizing down more than .005" in each step.
Now in your case, you want to use a Lee collet N/O sizer and a Lyman F/L die.
No issue with using the Lee N/O collet, but the F/L Lyman die will F/L size, but also size the neck down and then you will pull the expander button back through the neck. This negates the use of the Lee N/O collet use even if you do remove the expander button. Without the expanding button, the Lyman die sizes the neck down way too much to use without the expander button drawn back through it.
As a couple of other posters have mentioned, use the Lee N/O collet die and then use a Redding F/L BODY DIE. The body die only will F/L size the body of the case and does NOT touch the neck. All you have to do is buy a Redding body die and you're all set. As recommended in the article, you'll use the Lee collet die first and then the body die to F/L.
I went with the Redding S bushing dies, but I also had to buy 5- S bushings @ about $23.00 each (TiN). It can get expensive using the S die route.
A body dies costs about $35.00 and a Lee N/O collet die is about $20.00. You can make very accurate ammo using this pair of dies. After F/L sizing with the body die, you can shoot the cases about 4 times with neck only sizing and then F/L size in the body after the fourth firing.
I bought a lee N/O collet die and have experimented using it and my F/L S die without a bushing installed (works the came as a body only die). It makes ammo as good as the S bushing dies do.
The F/L Lyman die will not work for what you are trying to accomplish.
Get the Redding F/L body die and go to it.
I hope this helps.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob 964</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Assumptions:
1. I will use the 2-stage sizing process, as suggested by Mr. Salazar, neck sizing first and then full sizing.
2. The neck sizing die will be the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die.
3. The full sizing die will be the Lyman Full-Sizing Die I bought when I first started hand loading.
Questions:
1. Since the collets in the Lee die will straighten the neck around the mandrel and permit me to achieve a desired level of neck tension, won't pushing the expander ball in the Lyman die through the case mouth and then pulling it back through again mess up whatever alignment and tension I get from neck sizing first?
2. If "yes", then wouldn't I want to remove the expander ball from the full sizing die?
</div></div>
Forgive me if I'm missing something here and apologize if I've mis-read something, but I don't think you're getting the concept that Salazar is using in the article. He describes double neck sizing when using bushing dies (like Redding S bushing dies).
He describes using bushings that will size no more than about .005" in each sizing operation, depending on what brass you are using. Different manufacturers of brass will require different bushing sizes to get to the required .001"-.002" of neck tension.
I use a .337" S bushing for Federal brass, .335" for Remington and Speer brass, .333" for Hornady brass, .331" for winchester brass and a .329" for neck turned Winchester brass.
The necks in cases fired in my rifle expand out to about an outside diameter of .443". To get to the required .333" for my Hornady brass, I will first use a .337" bushing and then a .333" in the second necking to get to the .333".
That is the concept Salazar referring to. Not sizing down more than .005" in each step.
Now in your case, you want to use a Lee collet N/O sizer and a Lyman F/L die.
No issue with using the Lee N/O collet, but the F/L Lyman die will F/L size, but also size the neck down and then you will pull the expander button back through the neck. This negates the use of the Lee N/O collet use even if you do remove the expander button. Without the expanding button, the Lyman die sizes the neck down way too much to use without the expander button drawn back through it.
As a couple of other posters have mentioned, use the Lee N/O collet die and then use a Redding F/L BODY DIE. The body die only will F/L size the body of the case and does NOT touch the neck. All you have to do is buy a Redding body die and you're all set. As recommended in the article, you'll use the Lee collet die first and then the body die to F/L.
I went with the Redding S bushing dies, but I also had to buy 5- S bushings @ about $23.00 each (TiN). It can get expensive using the S die route.
A body dies costs about $35.00 and a Lee N/O collet die is about $20.00. You can make very accurate ammo using this pair of dies. After F/L sizing with the body die, you can shoot the cases about 4 times with neck only sizing and then F/L size in the body after the fourth firing.
I bought a lee N/O collet die and have experimented using it and my F/L S die without a bushing installed (works the came as a body only die). It makes ammo as good as the S bushing dies do.
The F/L Lyman die will not work for what you are trying to accomplish.
Get the Redding F/L body die and go to it.
I hope this helps.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Thanks Flight. Makes sense to me. I was hoping the Lyman full-size die minus the expander ball would function as a body die, but I wasn't sure how the neck would be affected. Looks like the body die used in conjunction with the Lee collet die does what I want to do.
Bob
Thanks Flight. Makes sense to me. I was hoping the Lyman full-size die minus the expander ball would function as a body die, but I wasn't sure how the neck would be affected. Looks like the body die used in conjunction with the Lee collet die does what I want to do.
Bob
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
Didn't read all the posts but I fl resize then trim then run threw a lee collet die for run out.
Didn't read all the posts but I fl resize then trim then run threw a lee collet die for run out.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
I do it sometime. I have a 550B set up for just brass prep with dies and if I need to FL size I put a body only die in the mix of bushing neck sizers, which are set up to step down neck sizing no more than .005" at a time.
I do it sometime. I have a 550B set up for just brass prep with dies and if I need to FL size I put a body only die in the mix of bushing neck sizers, which are set up to step down neck sizing no more than .005" at a time.
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FLIGHT762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FLIGHT762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bob 964 said:
Re: Does anyone full size AND neck size their brass?
I do not own a Redding F/L sizing type S bushing die, but I may to consolidate my current process. I have been running my brass through my Forster F/L die, then through a Redding type S neck sizer that gives me the right neck tension (I found which tension works best through trial and error). This die was loaned to me by a good friend so I wouldn't have to drop a pile of money to figure out what neck tension I needed for my loads.
The process, though a bit more labor intensive, has facilitated some extremely tight groupings with both of my .308s.
I'm thinking that I am going to suck it up and get the Redding die F/L type S with the proper bushings. I'll either put the Forster up for sale or keep it as a backup.
I do not own a Redding F/L sizing type S bushing die, but I may to consolidate my current process. I have been running my brass through my Forster F/L die, then through a Redding type S neck sizer that gives me the right neck tension (I found which tension works best through trial and error). This die was loaned to me by a good friend so I wouldn't have to drop a pile of money to figure out what neck tension I needed for my loads.
The process, though a bit more labor intensive, has facilitated some extremely tight groupings with both of my .308s.
I'm thinking that I am going to suck it up and get the Redding die F/L type S with the proper bushings. I'll either put the Forster up for sale or keep it as a backup.
Similar threads
