Does custom action make this much difference?

hafejd30

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    I’ve handled lots of factory rifles and a few customs. I have a Stiller P1000 and it’s ok. Buddy has a BAT and it’s better. My favorite is still the AI action tho. I do love the Tikkas and have only shot 1 but man was it nice.

    I think in regards to accuracy it will come down to the shooter ability. I’ve seen a decent amount of guns built on Rem/savage/custom actions. They all got it done in the accuracy department with tuned ammo. After that it comes down to reliability/personal preference and most of all $$$$
     
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    reubenski

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    Smooth is subjective. Some people refer to sliding the bolt in the raceways, some to bolt lift and close. Tikka are notably smooth in every regard beside lift. It's that short throw. No way to get around it, just basic cocking ramp geometry. A two lug, 90 like an Impact is going to have a much, much lighter lift and if the trigger is timed, a much lighter close.

    I bought a T3 for $400, cannibalized the action, sold the stock, BM, and mag for $120, barrel is still in my safe. Guy that sold it already put the Yo Dave trigger in it. $280 for one of the best production actions that has a unique look, has a wide availability of shouldered prefits(indication of quality of production?), and a trigger that beats a $400 AI trigger. Not really sure how you beat that...

    20190826_193611~2.jpg
     

    R_Swanson

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    Well, you aint finding a Tikka for 400 right now (because covid). Even before covid the lowest sales for used Tikkas was usually mid 400s, ever since they started making sure that MAP was followed used prices rose as well. I wouldnt post that like its that easy, go find a Tikka for 400, part it out, and you have an action for 280.

    Realistically its 600+ right now, plus a barrel (those 600 dollar guns are lites). IMO where you are really saving money is the trigger. Sure, that action is about 200 dollars cheaper than the lower end customs, but you save another 200+ getting a great trigger with the action. With the proliferation of 800ish dollar custom's the T3 is still a great deal, but not what it was 3+ years ago.

    BTW - the TRG is a better action and trigger, hands down. I love my T3's but you get what you pay for.
     
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    reubenski

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    Well, you aint finding a Tikka for 400 right now (because covid). Even before covid the lowest sales for used Tikkas was usually mid 400s, ever since they started making sure that MAP was followed used prices rose as well. I wouldnt post that like its that easy, go find a Tikka for 400, part it out, and you have an action for 280.

    Realistically its 600+ right now, plus a barrel (those 600 dollar guns are lites). IMO where you are really saving money is the trigger. Sure, that action is about 200 dollars cheaper than the lower end customs, but you save another 200+ getting a great trigger with the action. With the proliferation of 800ish dollar custom's the T3 is still a great deal, but not what it was 3+ years ago.

    BTW - the TRG is a better action and trigger, hands down. I love my T3's but you get what you pay for.
    Ha ha, I bought a second rifle for $500 less than a year ago, kept the bolt, and sold the rest of the rifle, as is, for $250. $125 cheaper than Dixons Tikka replacement bolts.

    Yes, 4th QTR CY2020 is a mother motherfucker. But, I'm sure a person will be able to find donor rifles on sale during specials or from folks hard up selling them in the classifieds again once things settle down.
     

    khuber84

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    A little off OP's topic: Smoothness and bolt lift related: Had 4 savages over the past few years. Actions were not smooth, and very heavy bolt lift. So heavy the rifle would lift off the bench onto one leg of the bipod lol. They shot but I did not enjoy shooting them as much as I thought I should. Finally sold my last savage and picked up a Tikka CTR in 6.5. Holy smooooooooth. I'd love to compare it to a impact precision 737R. In videos, the 737 looks like its as smooth as glass. As big of an improvement from a savage to a tikka. Someone lend me a 737 :D

    Oh, and it shoots pre rona priced .60cpr S&B ammo at MOA or less. Cant imagine what it'd do if I got into reloading.
    The impact has way less bolt lift than a Tikka. Smoothness of bolt stroke and magazine pickup is about the same. The impact has a long bolt handle, but an equal length handle on the Tikka and the bolt lift is closer. However you're comparing an action that extracts and cocks the action in 60° vs 90°. So the cams are doing the work in 33% less movement. The highest level 60° actions(terminus/cadex) will never have as light of lift as a high end 90° action.
     

    GrumpyOleFart

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    Love both my Tikka Super Varmint, and my Sako TRG.
    Smooth and accurate.
    My AI is a totally different kettle of fish, but outstanding in it's own way.
    Horses for courses.
    I would certainly advise someone to check out a Tikka or Sako, before shelling out HUGE dollars on a custom, because they may be pleasantly surprised.
     
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    xdeano

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    The action is only a delivery device for the bullets to go to and from the chamber. Some are built heavier, some lighter. What youre paying for is concentration, tollerances and coatings. Youre better off buying more barrels, a nice trigger, good scope, ammo and some training.

    If you want a custom to make you feel better about yourself, go for it. I use to shoot an old Remington that shot ok. But a buddy introduced me to blueprinting the action and putting a new tube on it and it shoot insanely accurate. Its my competition gun. I can tell you that the more rounds cycled the smoother the bolt will get, so will the shooter.

    Ive got customs, but that first printed Remington with a cut rifled tube attached will shoot just as well as the 1400$ ones. It doesnt have the floating bolt head, 60 degree lift, 3 lugs, manual ejector, controlled round feeding, toroidal lugs, integrated recoil lug, side bolt release, DLC, nitride, titanium...it goes on and on. But it'll shoot! I'll never sell it.

    Xdeano
     

    nksmfamjp

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    I’ve run the exact same barrel in a savage and custom action and accuracy was the same.
    I have a real hard time believing this, except most of the time we make these comparisons with 3 shot groups or a couple 5 shot groups. Somehow I think a season of benchrest groups would show you different.

    Savage is a great action and the most likely to achieve this. I think a Rem 700 wouldn’t even be close.


    Still, it is not just accuracy. A factory action isn’t accurate enough to put Triggertech’s best trigger on it. Also, factory actions are so poorly machined that barrel tenons must be custom fit where all of the customs can be built to print and mailed to you for install....handy. Also, factory actions tend to have a fair amount of timing issues, extraction issues, firing pin fall issues.....you pay the gunsmith to correct those or live with the results. Then there is feeding....

    Custom actions like Bighorn, GAP, Defiance, ARC, etc tend to have none of the above issues. That said, a “Fred” action would be custom too....who knows what a Fred action is. Go with a big name and you will have a big smile.
     

    reubenski

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    @Rocketmandb see what you started? Now we got to sit here and listen to every swinging dick jump on and talk about their opinion(which are all the same) about ALL factory actions in general vs custom actions when this thread was about Tikkas. Now we have to listen to a bunch of rampant, Savage, muppet'ry.

    Thanks for not understanding the first post.

    🤣🤣🤣
     

    khuber84

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    I have a real hard time believing this, except most of the time we make these comparisons with 3 shot groups or a couple 5 shot groups. Somehow I think a season of benchrest groups would show you different.

    Savage is a great action and the most likely to achieve this. I think a Rem 700 wouldn’t even be close.


    Still, it is not just accuracy. A factory action isn’t accurate enough to put Triggertech’s best trigger on it. Also, factory actions are so poorly machined that barrel tenons must be custom fit where all of the customs can be built to print and mailed to you for install....handy. Also, factory actions tend to have a fair amount of timing issues, extraction issues, firing pin fall issues.....you pay the gunsmith to correct those or live with the results. Then there is feeding....

    Custom actions like Bighorn, GAP, Defiance, ARC, etc tend to have none of the above issues. That said, a “Fred” action would be custom too....who knows what a Fred action is. Go with a big name and you will have a big smile.
    The defiance deviant(one of the best actions out there) doesn't gurantee headspace, so barrels cannot be prefit. There are maybe 25% of action manufacturers that provide this service. I'd you're a serious shooter, I don't think prefits are the way to dmgo for absolute accuracy. A shouldered barrel to your exact tenon with desired headspace is the best fit you'll get.
     

    NewsShooter

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    Tikkas are an outstanding action. Once you get the action blueprinted, custom barrel, bedded, ect, there is no difference. The features on a custom action can be much nicer though. Several years ago I had my PRS rifle built off of a Win Model 70 action. It shoots just as well as if I had it built off of a Defiance but the integrated 20MOA base, smoother feeding, and other features would have been nice to have. If you are tight on cash, blueprint a factory action and go from there. But if you can afford it, I would recommend a custom action.

    No need to blueprint the action, tolerances are good enough you can order shouldered prefits for them. I have a few, all are smoother than everything but my impact. Factory triggers don't need to be changed unless you really want to do so. Change the spring and you can have it about 1LB too.
     

    Steel head

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    I have a real hard time believing this, except most of the time we make these comparisons with 3 shot groups or a couple 5 shot groups. Somehow I think a season of benchrest groups would show you different.

    Savage is a great action and the most likely to achieve this. I think a Rem 700 wouldn’t even be close.


    Still, it is not just accuracy. A factory action isn’t accurate enough to put Triggertech’s best trigger on it. Also, factory actions are so poorly machined that barrel tenons must be custom fit where all of the customs can be built to print and mailed to you for install....handy. Also, factory actions tend to have a fair amount of timing issues, extraction issues, firing pin fall issues.....you pay the gunsmith to correct those or live with the results. Then there is feeding....

    Custom actions like Bighorn, GAP, Defiance, ARC, etc tend to have none of the above issues. That said, a “Fred” action would be custom too....who knows what a Fred action is. Go with a big name and you will have a big smile.
    I shot probably 1000 rounds through barrel on paper and steel then put it in my nucleus.
    Absolutely nothing changed except for the vastly better feel and functioning with the nuke.
    That barrel consistently stacked 10 in 5/8’s and smacked steel happily all its life.
    That barrel got me into the mile club.
     
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    viking78

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    I have 4 Tikka T3 rifles.
    Action is smooth, factory triggers are great, and you can find all kind of aftermarket stocks and chassis for Tikka action.
    But, im not able to say, go for custom or stay on Tikka, because i have not even handled those custom actions.
    I would love to try few brands that has come up on this talk.
    For custom action, that uses Rem 700 blueprint, there are endles on chassis and triggers, but the price is also higher.
    Think of the money you are willing to use, calculate, and do it one more time.
    You will need ammo too, and a scope etc.
    Let us see, what you did end up in the game ;).

    My kids like to shoot with these rifles too.
     

    nksmfamjp

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    I shot probably 1000 rounds through barrel on paper and steel then put it in my nucleus.
    Absolutely nothing changed except for the vastly better feel and functioning with the nuke.
    That barrel consistently stacked 10 in 5/8’s and smacked steel happily all its life.
    That barrel got me into the mile club.

    Well, sounds like your Rem was true,
    - Did it cock on close or open at all?
    - Was extraction 100%?
    -Was primary extraction correct?
    - firing pin fall and protrusion correct?
    - firing pin fit to bolt face?
    - how much bolt tilt when action closed?
    -feeding ok?
     

    mmlook

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    I can almost guarantee that if you need any type of CS from a custom manufacturer it will be better than Tikka or any firearm company owned by Beretta.

    I had one blow up on factory 90gr 243 loads. The bolt failed and I'm 100% certain it was flawed from the factory. They gave me the finger and sent the rifle back without even looking at it other than a basic visual inspection. Fuck Tikka.

    yup

    things that suck about Tikka's
    1. CS, warranty, and spare parts
    - shit CS, shit warranty, no spare parts,
    and the ones that are available are more expensive than custom parts
    2. Long bolt throw(front to back)
    - all Tikka's are technically medium actions
    3. The stupid bolt stop pin will break on you
    - look at it wrong and it will break

    other wise, Tikka's are great.
     
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    spife7980

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    Well, sounds like your Rem was true,
    - Did it cock on close or open at all?
    - Was extraction 100%?
    -Was primary extraction correct?
    - firing pin fall and protrusion correct?
    - firing pin fit to bolt face?
    - how much bolt tilt when action closed?
    -feeding ok?
    Yeah... we get that you’re trying to make a point but I think it would be better if you just shut the fuck up and go try to pontificate elsewhere.
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    “sturdy woman from wisconsin” has me fkin dying. 😂😂

    Yeah I laughed out loud on that one too. This thread has been fun for me to watch everyone bitch and fight so much. Yet still, there isn't even agreement on what is even being discussed!!!

    Ha ha. This thread made my morning. Thanks to all involved!
     
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    NewsShooter

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    yup

    things that suck about Tikka's
    1. CS, warranty, and spare parts
    - shit CS, shit warranty, no spare parts,
    and the ones that are available are more expensive than custom parts
    2. Long bolt throw(front to back)
    - all Tikka's are technically medium actions
    3. The stupid bolt stop pin will break on you
    - look at it wrong and it will break

    other wise, Tikka's are great.

    I've got one in 6.5 that's been through two barrels so far, no issues, including bolt stops. Three others have worked without a hiccup, I've put them in a chassis and aftermarket stocks as well. The fact that they're a "medium" action is one of the things I like, perfect for a 7 saum. :)
     

    GrumpyOleFart

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    yup

    things that suck about Tikka's
    1. CS, warranty, and spare parts
    - shit CS, shit warranty, no spare parts,
    and the ones that are available are more expensive than custom parts
    2. Long bolt throw(front to back)
    - all Tikka's are technically medium actions
    3. The stupid bolt stop pin will break on you
    - look at it wrong and it will break

    other wise, Tikka's are great.
    Can't please everyone all the time.
    Surprised that Tikka didn't just replace the rifle.
    🤔
     

    mmlook

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    Can't please everyone all the time.
    Surprised that Tikka didn't just replace the rifle.
    🤔

    tikka/barretta won’t warranty anything unless you are the original owner and have proof of purchase from a tikka dealer

    they also won’t sell bolt assemblies

    so, if you break a bolt, and you can’t find your receipt. you’re out of luck.

    this is the main reason I sold 3 Tikka’s
     

    mmlook

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    Tikka bolt stops are not prone to breaking. Stop that nonsense.

    yes they are, the bolt stop is not supported by the action, and the pin is way too small.

    there’s also not enough metal to increase the hole size, to use a larger pin
     

    GrumpyOleFart

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    Okay, so it's a second hand rifle.
    I honestly haven't heard of any failures with Tikkas, Doesn't meant it doesn't happen, have seen pics on SH of busted bolts, so its legit.
    Pretty sure the new T3x have improved bolts over the T3.
    My Super Varmint is a fucken rail gun.
    Consistently shoots tight groups, and smacks ferals and steel at good distances.
    My evil sense of humour has been relishing the fact that the high rollers with
    extremely pricey rigs, at the local gun club, are cracking the shits over the performance of "cheap nasty" factory rifles.
    Even to the stage they don't want non custom rifles in their comps.
    Much like what @lowlight was chatting about in the podcast.
    Half the reason I rarely attend.
    Too much politics.
    I'd rather smash ferals, and drive pills into steel at a distance with a few likeminded mates, than argue how price alone should justify a guys position on the scoreboard.
    End of the day, if you find a decent rifle regardless of make, shoot the fuck out of it and enjoy!
     

    nksmfamjp

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    Yeah... we get that you’re trying to make a point but I think it would be better if you just shut the fuck up and go try to pontificate elsewhere.
    Wow! I’m just pointing out the layers of fucked that all Rem 700’s are and then you decide to get all fucking personal and show us your ass.....well take your super duper Rem 700 and fuck off!

    BTW, if you cannot hear me sarcastically laughing as I type this, I don’t know what the fuck to do!
     
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    Tokay444

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    Action stiffness also has relatively little to do with rifle accuracy. Look at the record setting BR actions that are aluminum. Ex: Panda
    Aluminum pandas are also a great deal larger than “standard” steel/stainless, “Remington style” actions, and have steel inserts in stressed areas. Rigidity matters and aluminum pandas have it spades.
     

    R_Swanson

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    tikka/barretta won’t warranty anything unless you are the original owner and have proof of purchase from a tikka dealer

    they also won’t sell bolt assemblies

    so, if you break a bolt, and you can’t find your receipt. you’re out of luck.

    this is the main reason I sold 3 Tikka’s

    Not anymore...


    yes they are, the bolt stop is not supported by the action, and the pin is way too small.

    there’s also not enough metal to increase the hole size, to use a larger pin

    I mean, I love my Tikkas but everyone knows this is true. Not sure why people are debating it.

    That being said obviously you're being dramatic AF saying "look at it wrong and it will break". More like, if you run it hard on a competition gun you'll break one.
     
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    reubenski

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    if you had these a year ago

    i might still have my tikka’s 👍
    It was still cheaper and faster a year ago to just buy a Tikka with the bolt you want and sell the remainder of the rifle for $200 - $300. A buddy and I did this and collected up 5 bolts this way. And now...they're $375 and available in two of the three bolt faces a person would want.
     

    Jrb572

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    Not anymore...




    I mean, I love my Tikkas but everyone knows this is true. Not sure why people are debating it.

    That being said obviously you're being dramatic AF saying "look at it wrong and it will break". More like, if you run it hard on a competition gun you'll break one.

    is it the bolt stop that breaks or the pin that holds it in? I might purchase an extra to keep in my hunting bag.
     

    khuber84

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    yes they are, the bolt stop is not supported by the action, and the pin is way too small.

    there’s also not enough metal to increase the hole size, to use a larger pin
    How hard are you slamming the bolt into the stop? I have 5 tikkas and have broke one stop, it broke because I modded a SA stop into a LA stop, it wasn't a pin failure and I have thousands of rounds through my Tikkas.
     

    candyx

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    Buy a suit off the rack is not like wearing a custom made suit.......The fit and feel is much different.......
     
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    R_Swanson

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    How hard are you slamming the bolt into the stop? I have 5 tikkas and have broke one stop, it broke because I modded a SA stop into a LA stop, it wasn't a pin failure and I have thousands of rounds through my Tikkas.
    Known issue with competition shooters. They are shooting more than most of us and running their bolts hard.

    Some(many?) have speculated(stated?) its the main reason you dont see many Tikkas in competition. Pretty sure its commonly accepted the rest of the action is up to it, they headspace super consistently so its easy to source barrels, and theres multiple competition chassis for them now...
     
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    NewsShooter

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    Not anymore...




    I mean, I love my Tikkas but everyone knows this is true. Not sure why people are debating it.

    That being said obviously you're being dramatic AF saying "look at it wrong and it will break". More like, if you run it hard on a competition gun you'll break one.

    I've ran mine for a couple years in club matches that were as tough as PRS matches, never managed to break anything. Guess I'm doing something wrong. :)
     
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    Zane1844

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    I’m new to precision rifle and have only shot one bolt gun, and it’s my Bergara HMR in 6.5CM.

    It does everything I need and is sub-moa. I am, however, still planning on getting a custom because I can appreciate the machining and quality. Buying prefits will be nice as well. Plus, my Bergara sometimes doesn’t feed well.

    Overall, I don’t think the custom gun will make me better (maybe I can squeeze out smaller groups) but I’m an enthusiast so I’ll appreciate the workmanship.

    Not sure if this helps the OP, but that’s my reasoning for wanting one.
     

    khuber84

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    Bullshit on the bolt stop breaking myth. 165 on it and good as gold

    View attachment 7513172
    Idk if it's a continuous load, or more of a shock load that's causing the supposed failures. I have broken a bolt stop on a kelbly atlas tactical, due to the shock/jarring of slamming bolt back. But never a Tikka. Maybe after I broke the kelbly, I quit running my bolt like the Lou Ferrigno!
     
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    reubenski

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    If you're slamming your bolt back hard enough to break something you're doing it wrong. I know it happens. It happened before PRS existed, it's happened with many other actions, it does happen. But running your bolt like that is pretty shitty technique. I would agree that the Tikka bolt stop could be improved a little, but it's not a major flaw that justifies paying 3x as much for a custom action. I think there's a lot of confirmation bias in that idea.

    I would also agree that Tikka's customer service and retail parts could be improved. In fact, I just got linked up with the new head of rifles for North America for Beretta. Former 160th guy. Ive been showing him my Tikka, all the KRG aftermarket support, and invited him out to a PRS match. Unfortunately the parent company are Europeans. Old dudes. Typical of Europeans and a very old company they are just rigid. It will be a slow process. I'm trying to talk him into a KRG edition for a modern tactical/ competition rifle.
     

    reubenski

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    Idk if it's a continuous load, or more of a shock load that's causing the supposed failures. I have broken a bolt stop on a kelbly atlas tactical, due to the shock/jarring of slamming bolt back. But never a Tikka. Maybe after I broke the kelbly, I quit running my bolt like the Lou Ferrigno!
    It looks like I posted as a response to you, saying you have shitty technique. Not trying to be so blunt. It's just unfortunate timing we both posted when we did.
    Screenshot_20201227-192957_Chrome.jpg