Don't blame the rifle...

Ape_Factory

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I took my POF Revolution DI to the range with three different types of ammunition. a 147gr, a 150gr and a 180gr just to see how it handled each. With a 1:10 twist rate, I was expecting the worst from the 180gr ammunition and I was correct in that assumption. I went through 15 of 20 rounds out of the box and they were everywhere on a reasonably dialed-in rifle and I didn't even bother shooting the last five out of the box. It was that bad.

The 180gr. ammunition was Winchester SuperX soft tip (180gr. as previously mentioned). I want to say the box was around $30 at Bass Pro. POF doesn't recommend soft tip ammo but I thought I'd at least try it as it was "on the shelf" and I wanted to see how it handled heavier bullets.

Anyway, my enabling neighbor, who is an experienced, scientifically driven reloader, wanted to dissect the last five rounds. "Go for it" I said and gave him the remainder of the box. After checking every measurable parameter including grains of powder, he decided to cut the bullets themselves length-wise. And there it was. Voids in the lead core. That'll do it at 120,000rpm. So don't always blame the gun, buy (or produce) better ammo. Internet confirmation bias is a b*tch. Lesson learned.
 

Ape_Factory

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He cut two and both had voids. When shooting them, I had a few that were fairly close to my center but the rest were not. Not even close.
 
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Zatchmo

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This is fascinating to me. How are soft point bullets manufactured? Do they draw the jacket and then pour lead in? Or are the jackets drawn around a lead slug?
 

ormandj

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I'm hoping that jacket deformation is from the cutting process. When you can see the flaws with the naked eye in potato photos, you know it's bad.

What's going on with the jacket at the bottom near that 'pocket'? That doesn't look right. Same with the cannelure. Apologies on the poor quality of the crop, the original image wasn't great when zoomed in. Click for more detail.

Screen Shot 2020-08-23 at 7.46.02 PM.png

The whole thing is also 'bent' in many ways, and has a lot of issues that would be major problems if fired in that condition.
 
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Ape_Factory

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He basically said "it ain't easy to cut a bullet length wise". I'm sure some of the deformation you're seeing is from it being cut in half like that. We're not doing this with high-powered lasers :). I'll get more info from him tomorrow. I still have to file a "claim" with Winchester but he has the box and the lot number and I need that to completely fill out their online form.

I'm sure he still has the bullets, I'll try to take some higher res photos too.
 

ormandj

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He basically said "it ain't easy to cut a bullet length wise". I'm sure some of the deformation you're seeing is from it being cut in half like that. We're not doing this with high-powered lasers :). I'll get more info from him tomorrow. I still have to file a "claim" with Winchester but he has the box and the lot number and I need that to completely fill out their online form.

I'm sure he still has the bullets, I'll try to take some higher res photos too.

Totally understand re: cutting. I've done my fair share of cross sections and you need a high speed cutter, and even still you'll have some deformation. Just wanted to make sure the bullets weren't like that stock, as that would have been brutally bad!
 

Gobdog

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I've got a little more confidence in my shooting abilities now knowing I'm not the only flaw in my setup lol
 
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__JR__

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11 out of 10 barrelmakers agree, that it's not just the barrel that maketh the accuracy.
 

Ape_Factory

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I'm getting all the other information. He wrote everything down from powder grains to OAL, etc...Still has the box so I'll have the lot number here shortly along with when the ammo was manufactured. Just tough during the week with everything going on. The amount of powder was fairly consistent, nothing stood out. He knew which bullets to cut open based on weight. Out of the five left, several were lighter than the rest. Those were the ones halved. He used to be a member here, will try to get him to sign back in and share.
 

Lucky Se7en

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This is very eye opening and makes me wondering if sorting bullets by weight has more merit than I had previously given it credit for. I wonder what would happen if you sorted them by weight and then cut them in half.

I know it isn’t fair to compare bullets in completely different leagues, but when you hear about Berger talking about their tight tolerances on the jacket thickness and the down range benefits and then see things like this, I’m sure there are a lot of people that are going to really cringe at that photo.
 

Ape_Factory

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This is very eye opening and makes me wondering if sorting bullets by weight has more merit than I had previously given it credit for. I wonder what would happen if you sorted them by weight and then cut them in half.

I know it isn’t fair to compare bullets in completely different leagues, but when you hear about Berger talking about their tight tolerances on the jacket thickness and the down range benefits and then see things like this, I’m sure there are a lot of people that are going to really cringe at that photo.

So I'm about to do loads for both .308 and .223. I have a variety of bullets both in terms of who makes them and grain weight. It'd be tough to cut a .224 diameter bullet in half but the 308's are all obviously doable.

If I were to weigh them, how many grams would it take for you to put a bullet into one pile and one into another? A gram? Tenth of a gram? Hundreth?
 

SN13

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So I'm about to do loads for both .308 and .223. I have a variety of bullets both in terms of who makes them and grain weight. It'd be tough to cut a .224 diameter bullet in half but the 308's are all obviously doable.

If I were to weigh them, how many grams would it take for you to put a bullet into one pile and one into another? A gram? Tenth of a gram? Hundreth?

Grams or grains?

1 gram is like 15.4 grains.

So a 154gr bullet weighs about 10 grams
 

Ape_Factory

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I know bullet weights are listed in grains but I don't personally have a scale that measures grains. Know I need to get one :) Neighbor does but I try not to bug him too much and I'd like to be able to sort out the bullets based on weight. With that said...just realized my scale doesn't read in tenths or hundredths of a gram anyway. Time to order something.
 

308pirate

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    @Ape_Factory your barrel's twist rate had nothing to do with the inaccuracy you saw. You bought cheap ass shit ammo (Winchester Walmart grade) and should not be surprised you got cheap ass shit accuracy from it.

    I suspect the other two you tried (just guessing by the bullet weights) are also surplus FMJ.
     

    Ape_Factory

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    @Ape_Factory your barrel's twist rate had nothing to do with the inaccuracy you saw. You bought cheap ass shit ammo (Winchester Walmart grade) and should not be surprised you got cheap ass shit accuracy from it.

    I suspect the other two you tried (just guessing by the bullet weights) are also surplus FMJ.

    I'm aware it wasn't the barrel. I see a lot "blame" put on the rifle in various threads but there's always more to consider. Nothing I shot was match grade. American Eagle and PMC, 150 and 147gr. respectively, 20 round boxes. I actually get MOA results at 100 yards with either despite their low cost.

    And for the record, it was Bass Pro grade, LOL. I honestly had no expectations one way or the other, it was just an experiment. When those particular rounds didn't group and were all over the place compared to the other two offerings, we decided to try and find out why out of sheer curiosity, hence this thread. I'm well aware factory ammo usually isn't all that great, even "match" rounds. Simply exploring one of the many variables when shooting.
     
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