Double Lugged M-1a
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Re: Double Lugged M-1a
I just got my second Supermatch M1A which is the Rear-Lugged model. From what I've experienced and heard the lug in the rear allows for a more stable platform and increases the life of the bedding job. Really doesn't do anything for accuracy by itself but when combined with the other differences in the Supermatch M1A it may add a little.
I just got my second Supermatch M1A which is the Rear-Lugged model. From what I've experienced and heard the lug in the rear allows for a more stable platform and increases the life of the bedding job. Really doesn't do anything for accuracy by itself but when combined with the other differences in the Supermatch M1A it may add a little.
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
IMO depends on the stock choice. If you are planning a build with a JAE, Sage or Troy stock ie a chasis then the rear lug matters little. If using a McM or other conventional stock in which bedding will be needed the rear lug provides more surface to bed to.
My vote do yourself a favor and do a chasis unless you want to shoot High Power in which case get an AR if you want to be competitive.
Bug Manners and see how the progress on their M14 stock is going lol. Sort of the best of both worlds as they will have a chasis installed in a CF stock which will allow one to skip bedding and still have a conventional stock shape.
IMO depends on the stock choice. If you are planning a build with a JAE, Sage or Troy stock ie a chasis then the rear lug matters little. If using a McM or other conventional stock in which bedding will be needed the rear lug provides more surface to bed to.
My vote do yourself a favor and do a chasis unless you want to shoot High Power in which case get an AR if you want to be competitive.
Bug Manners and see how the progress on their M14 stock is going lol. Sort of the best of both worlds as they will have a chasis installed in a CF stock which will allow one to skip bedding and still have a conventional stock shape.
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
Worse than that, the OP is talking about a double-lug model, not just rear-lug. So, I think that really limits the stock choices. Going with anything other than a McMillan at that point seems silly...
Worse than that, the OP is talking about a double-lug model, not just rear-lug. So, I think that really limits the stock choices. Going with anything other than a McMillan at that point seems silly...
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMO depends on the stock choice. If you are planning a build with a JAE, Sage or Troy stock ie a chasis then the rear lug matters little. </div></div>
Correct, these chassis stocks eliminate the need for a rear lug.
The SAGE EBR chassis does not accept a rear lug receiver.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMO depends on the stock choice. If you are planning a build with a JAE, Sage or Troy stock ie a chasis then the rear lug matters little. </div></div>
Correct, these chassis stocks eliminate the need for a rear lug.
The SAGE EBR chassis does not accept a rear lug receiver.
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
My super match is a double lug receiver, the bedding is tight, but was also done by Mcmillan. If you arebuilding it yourself, get a JAE or a sage and skip the bedding. It looks like a nightmare to do
My super match is a double lug receiver, the bedding is tight, but was also done by Mcmillan. If you arebuilding it yourself, get a JAE or a sage and skip the bedding. It looks like a nightmare to do
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
I've built double lugged on McMillan's I did a double bedding process. Initially bedding the receiver and then milling out the pillar holes for the aluminum pillars. I did my first in 1996 on an ARMSCORP dbl lug. I shot .5-.6 and still holds that.
I must admit that milling out big chunks of a $400.00 stock is a little nerving!
Just take your time and don't forget the basic bedding rules of coating with release agent and letting the bedding set before you try to remove the action.
I've built double lugged on McMillan's I did a double bedding process. Initially bedding the receiver and then milling out the pillar holes for the aluminum pillars. I did my first in 1996 on an ARMSCORP dbl lug. I shot .5-.6 and still holds that.
I must admit that milling out big chunks of a $400.00 stock is a little nerving!
Just take your time and don't forget the basic bedding rules of coating with release agent and letting the bedding set before you try to remove the action.
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
I have a couple double lug rifles.
The use of double lugs on the M1A/M14 became popular in the 1980's by the military rifle teams who were competing with the M1A/M14 service rifle in NRA Highpower Rifle Competition. The idea was the lugs would provide more surface area to stabilize the barreled actions in the heavier McMillan and Bishop stocks which were popular for National Match competition. Some set ups took the concept one step further by having actual bedding screws incorporated into them, further enhancing the bedding benefits provided by the lugs. One lug was typically welded across the rear of the receiver and the other either welded or incorporated into a modified barrel lug between the barrel and receiver.
The lugs would be bedded with Devacon or Acraglass into the stock or in some cases, glued into the stock and only removed for major maintenance by the team armorer.
When I shot highpower, the Army teams used glued in rifles and the Marines and Navy shooters used double lugged bedded rifles. Boy could those guys shoot! I am sure there are exceptions to this but that is what I experienced.
The lugs would be torqued to spec prior to shooting and then un torqued prior to storage.
I have or have shot no lug, single lug, double lugged and glued in NM M1A/M14's. All shot great. The double lugged guns were the coolest, but required the most maintenance. The glue in guns shot great until they needed maintenace. Clint Fowler, Derrick Martin, Jerry Rice, and Art Lupino were all masters at building lugged M1A/M14's back then. There were others, but these were the ones I went to.
The front gas systems were either free floated as done by Clint Fowler, or held under pressure by the front ferrule as done by Derrick Martin and Art Lupino. Gas systems were unitized by TIG welding or in some cases by screws. All methods worked fine.
Don McCoy did a similar thing with Garands and built single and triple lugged guns.
All works of art. Interest in the lugged M1A/M14' for NM competition waned with the advent of the floating hanguard and high BC bullets for the AR 15. The AR15 is now the pre-eminent platform for service rifle with only a few die hards shooting the M1A/M14.
Good luck!
I have a couple double lug rifles.
The use of double lugs on the M1A/M14 became popular in the 1980's by the military rifle teams who were competing with the M1A/M14 service rifle in NRA Highpower Rifle Competition. The idea was the lugs would provide more surface area to stabilize the barreled actions in the heavier McMillan and Bishop stocks which were popular for National Match competition. Some set ups took the concept one step further by having actual bedding screws incorporated into them, further enhancing the bedding benefits provided by the lugs. One lug was typically welded across the rear of the receiver and the other either welded or incorporated into a modified barrel lug between the barrel and receiver.
The lugs would be bedded with Devacon or Acraglass into the stock or in some cases, glued into the stock and only removed for major maintenance by the team armorer.
When I shot highpower, the Army teams used glued in rifles and the Marines and Navy shooters used double lugged bedded rifles. Boy could those guys shoot! I am sure there are exceptions to this but that is what I experienced.
The lugs would be torqued to spec prior to shooting and then un torqued prior to storage.
I have or have shot no lug, single lug, double lugged and glued in NM M1A/M14's. All shot great. The double lugged guns were the coolest, but required the most maintenance. The glue in guns shot great until they needed maintenace. Clint Fowler, Derrick Martin, Jerry Rice, and Art Lupino were all masters at building lugged M1A/M14's back then. There were others, but these were the ones I went to.
The front gas systems were either free floated as done by Clint Fowler, or held under pressure by the front ferrule as done by Derrick Martin and Art Lupino. Gas systems were unitized by TIG welding or in some cases by screws. All methods worked fine.
Don McCoy did a similar thing with Garands and built single and triple lugged guns.
All works of art. Interest in the lugged M1A/M14' for NM competition waned with the advent of the floating hanguard and high BC bullets for the AR 15. The AR15 is now the pre-eminent platform for service rifle with only a few die hards shooting the M1A/M14.
Good luck!
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
I have double lugged, single lugged, no lug M1As and I could not tell the difference in the accuracy between all different systems. The same goes for the no lug, single lugged and triple lugged 308 M1s I have.
I have double lugged, single lugged, no lug M1As and I could not tell the difference in the accuracy between all different systems. The same goes for the no lug, single lugged and triple lugged 308 M1s I have.
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alibi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> First time poster, long time reader.
Does anyone here have any experience with one? Building, shooting, maintaining... </div></div>
From another forum:
Useful for a match rifle for Highpower Competition to make the bedding last longer.
For a general purpose rifle not really necessary.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alibi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> First time poster, long time reader.
Does anyone here have any experience with one? Building, shooting, maintaining... </div></div>
From another forum:
Useful for a match rifle for Highpower Competition to make the bedding last longer.
For a general purpose rifle not really necessary.
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
Not to sound too stupid... But what is meant by the statement that Double-lugged rifles require the most maintenance? Is there something you need to be constantly adjusting, tightening, loosening or otherwise messing with to maintain accuracy? Or functionality? I have a Supermatch M1A that I plan to just shoot and clean normally. What else do I need to do?
Not to sound too stupid... But what is meant by the statement that Double-lugged rifles require the most maintenance? Is there something you need to be constantly adjusting, tightening, loosening or otherwise messing with to maintain accuracy? Or functionality? I have a Supermatch M1A that I plan to just shoot and clean normally. What else do I need to do?
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
No question is stupid. The double lug guns required the most maintenance for me as I had to torque and recheck the settings prior to shooting. On some set ups, the front lugs had limited bedding screw engagement, so it was common to check the torque settings before the 300 rapid and 600 slow fire stages.
The glue in guns, well, you just shot them, cleaned the bore/chamber, lubed them with grease and logged your rounds until they needed gas system service (usually 700 rounds) and then off to the armorer for un-gluing and a thorough cleaning. The double lug guns were the same but had all the torqueing and untorqueing. Sight work was always left to the armorer.
Most of this is unnecessary unless you are trying to hammer the X to raise your team's X count. Get's expensive too. Requires multiple similar built rifles, an armorer and a bunch of parts, barrels and dedicated M14 tools to keep everything running.
Worth it? Yes, I like mine, but would I do it again? Probably not with the AR 10. Maybe just two M1A's next time.
Good luck!
No question is stupid. The double lug guns required the most maintenance for me as I had to torque and recheck the settings prior to shooting. On some set ups, the front lugs had limited bedding screw engagement, so it was common to check the torque settings before the 300 rapid and 600 slow fire stages.
The glue in guns, well, you just shot them, cleaned the bore/chamber, lubed them with grease and logged your rounds until they needed gas system service (usually 700 rounds) and then off to the armorer for un-gluing and a thorough cleaning. The double lug guns were the same but had all the torqueing and untorqueing. Sight work was always left to the armorer.
Most of this is unnecessary unless you are trying to hammer the X to raise your team's X count. Get's expensive too. Requires multiple similar built rifles, an armorer and a bunch of parts, barrels and dedicated M14 tools to keep everything running.
Worth it? Yes, I like mine, but would I do it again? Probably not with the AR 10. Maybe just two M1A's next time.
Good luck!
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No question is stupid. The double lug guns required the most maintenance for me as I had to torque and recheck the settings prior to shooting. On some set ups, the front lugs had limited bedding screw engagement, so it was common to check the torque settings before the 300 rapid and 600 slow fire stages....
</div></div>
With the half dozen or more Double Lugged M1-A's I have seen, never witnessed anyone torquing a rifle on the line. The one's I am most familial with shot them until the barrels wore out that had them rebedded when rebarreled. Clint Fouler built the ones I am talking about.
Good luck
Jerry
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No question is stupid. The double lug guns required the most maintenance for me as I had to torque and recheck the settings prior to shooting. On some set ups, the front lugs had limited bedding screw engagement, so it was common to check the torque settings before the 300 rapid and 600 slow fire stages....
</div></div>
With the half dozen or more Double Lugged M1-A's I have seen, never witnessed anyone torquing a rifle on the line. The one's I am most familial with shot them until the barrels wore out that had them rebedded when rebarreled. Clint Fouler built the ones I am talking about.
Good luck
Jerry
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
I have two. One in a Bishop and one in a Mac. They are both great shooters and need little almost no maintenance aside from cleaning and checking torque. I think M21guy has a point though these rifles were built years ago and now there are better ways and material available
I have two. One in a Bishop and one in a Mac. They are both great shooters and need little almost no maintenance aside from cleaning and checking torque. I think M21guy has a point though these rifles were built years ago and now there are better ways and material available
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerry M</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No question is stupid. The double lug guns required the most maintenance for me as I had to torque and recheck the settings prior to shooting. On some set ups, the front lugs had limited bedding screw engagement, so it was common to check the torque settings before the 300 rapid and 600 slow fire stages....
</div></div>
With the half dozen or more Double Lugged M1-A's I have seen, never witnessed anyone torquing a rifle on the line. The one's I am most familial with shot them until the barrels wore out that had them rebedded when rebarreled. Clint Fouler built the ones I am talking about.
Good luck
Jerry </div></div>
When I was shooting M-14's, every morning we'd get in line and the armourer would check torque on them. If they got a little slack on the screws, I think it was an indicator that the glass was going south.
Bear in mind we shot between 80-120 rds/day. (Thank you taxpayers!)
All we did for maintenance was punch the bores. The armourers cleaned the gas systems,
changed out sights, inspected the glass etc, etc..
As far as the double lugs needing more maintenance, from my pov it's just the daily torque check.
Of course I was just a shooter, not a mechanic.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerry M</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No question is stupid. The double lug guns required the most maintenance for me as I had to torque and recheck the settings prior to shooting. On some set ups, the front lugs had limited bedding screw engagement, so it was common to check the torque settings before the 300 rapid and 600 slow fire stages....
</div></div>
With the half dozen or more Double Lugged M1-A's I have seen, never witnessed anyone torquing a rifle on the line. The one's I am most familial with shot them until the barrels wore out that had them rebedded when rebarreled. Clint Fouler built the ones I am talking about.
Good luck
Jerry </div></div>
When I was shooting M-14's, every morning we'd get in line and the armourer would check torque on them. If they got a little slack on the screws, I think it was an indicator that the glass was going south.
Bear in mind we shot between 80-120 rds/day. (Thank you taxpayers!)
All we did for maintenance was punch the bores. The armourers cleaned the gas systems,
changed out sights, inspected the glass etc, etc..
As far as the double lugs needing more maintenance, from my pov it's just the daily torque check.
Of course I was just a shooter, not a mechanic.
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
I can understand torquing before you shoot, that makes sense for military shooters; because of the volume they shoot. That is different from torquing between the 200, 300, & 600 yard strings (88 round).
Good luck
Jerry
I can understand torquing before you shoot, that makes sense for military shooters; because of the volume they shoot. That is different from torquing between the 200, 300, & 600 yard strings (88 round).
Good luck
Jerry
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
Sorry for the unclear statement, by more maintenance I meant, more checking and retorqueing. We used to check between 300 and 600 and if we were shooting alot of high volume events such as the battle rattle more often. The glue in guns we just shot and punched out the bore.
I too used to just punch the bore, lube the rifle and leave everything else to the armorer.
I found out the hard way, some solvents were very hard on the bedding. A little bit of Shooters Choice in the bedding would soften it up over night. The benefits of the double lug guns were quickly lost when the bedding went south. Checking the torque settings was a quick way to find out if the bedding was okay or not.
One of the previous posts mentioned steel bedding. I agree. Much better mousetrap.
Sorry for the unclear statement, by more maintenance I meant, more checking and retorqueing. We used to check between 300 and 600 and if we were shooting alot of high volume events such as the battle rattle more often. The glue in guns we just shot and punched out the bore.
I too used to just punch the bore, lube the rifle and leave everything else to the armorer.
I found out the hard way, some solvents were very hard on the bedding. A little bit of Shooters Choice in the bedding would soften it up over night. The benefits of the double lug guns were quickly lost when the bedding went south. Checking the torque settings was a quick way to find out if the bedding was okay or not.
One of the previous posts mentioned steel bedding. I agree. Much better mousetrap.
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
Ok... Idiot here again. I have to ask another stupid question. What screws are you talking about? I can't find a single screw anywhere on my whole Supermatch... Except those that hold the butt-plate and sling mounts. And you certainly don't torque those to improve accuracy! Oh yea, there's a screw in my rear sight too.
I'm guessing the double lugged rifles have screws in the front lug???
Ok... Idiot here again. I have to ask another stupid question. What screws are you talking about? I can't find a single screw anywhere on my whole Supermatch... Except those that hold the butt-plate and sling mounts. And you certainly don't torque those to improve accuracy! Oh yea, there's a screw in my rear sight too.
I'm guessing the double lugged rifles have screws in the front lug???
Re: Double Lugged M-1a
Depending on how your rifle was built, it may or maynot have bedding screws which connect to the lugs on the receiver. I can only speak for my rifles. One bedding screw is visible in the magazine cut out and the other is inside the trigger cutout and only visible if your take the trigger assembly out.
The Double lug guns I have left are Derrick Martins. Those have bedding screws as described above. The only Lupino I have left is a single rear lug and has no bedding screw in the rear and no lug in the front (my favorite). My glue ins are long gone.
From the way described, your rifle may have no bedding screws and has double lugs to maximize the bedding surface. If so, that's a nice set up which minimizes the need to torque and re-torque. Should shoot great.
Depending on how your rifle was built, it may or maynot have bedding screws which connect to the lugs on the receiver. I can only speak for my rifles. One bedding screw is visible in the magazine cut out and the other is inside the trigger cutout and only visible if your take the trigger assembly out.
The Double lug guns I have left are Derrick Martins. Those have bedding screws as described above. The only Lupino I have left is a single rear lug and has no bedding screw in the rear and no lug in the front (my favorite). My glue ins are long gone.
From the way described, your rifle may have no bedding screws and has double lugs to maximize the bedding surface. If so, that's a nice set up which minimizes the need to torque and re-torque. Should shoot great.
