Night Vision Dual mounted NV / Thermal
- Thread starter Rerun7
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Will 1 has a good vid here. You can also reach out to him for further information. He is a member here and probably will be along soon to help you.
Results very gravely, and there’s a huge degree of personal preference involved. For me, turning the thermal brightness wayyyy down was a must. Keeping a 14 on a lower gain so as to not torch your eyeball was a good thing. I’m general, condition always dictates settings and it can change a lot through the night.
Case in point: 3/4 moon for two hours. Then fog and clouds rolled in and both requested another adjustment at that point.
Case in point: 3/4 moon for two hours. Then fog and clouds rolled in and both requested another adjustment at that point.
Yes. I do. I use a Skeet IRX with a PVS14 with a KVC bridge to pull together. I use both at the same time but if you end up finding it distracting you can move them. The KVC bridge and K clip or OSS allow the position adjustments you need to keep the eye pieces in line with each other.
I've tried with a couple of thermals. The skeet centers in my brain and works best for sure.
^^^this
Thanks to the gentlemen here, particularly Horta for the helmet review (that was the last straw), I've finally sucked it up and pulled the trigger.
Naturally, now I want everything yesterday.
God knows when/if Nox will be a thing.....that aside, I need 2 PVS 14s for two helmets if I am to see anything in the dark better than I can see my turkey farts (turkey farts do have an audible and tactile notification when actuated).
Starting from here and now, how do I spend FY2020 money before it's gone?
I just do not understand how what one eye is seeing merges with the other eye when each is looking into a different device.
I just paired a PVS 14 and Chinaskeet with a Mod Armory bridge. I use both units at the same time. It's incredible to see all of the critters you miss with NV only. The "shadows" literally come alive.
your eyes do it all the time. One of your eyes has better vision than the other...
The image your brain “sees” is better than EITHER eye. Your brain is meshing the most useful aspects of each image to feed to your brain.
Obviously, in practice, this dual band thing is harder because it’s less natural to us. But the concept is something your eyes/brain do all day every day.
I aint got there either, but I'm pondering on it.
But Will-1 is a reliable and seasoned source so one might need to follow his lead on what he has discovered.
It really doesn't. When the Skeeter first came out many yesrs ago, I remember being at Bragg at Range 37 with some boys out there. We all tried the same thing, thinking the advantages. It never worked back then and today 99% of the folks will never get ones brain to "fuse" like that. What many do is simply turn the brightness down on the thermal to adjust the image, but it never really merges like that.
I run an IR patrol on my left eye and PVS 14 on the right. The trick is to play with the width between the 2 so they overlap a bit. In my case left 1/4 of my view is thermal only, right 1/4 is NV only middle half is both. It takes a few hours to get used to but swiveling your head a but switches between modes.
Thanks WN&H.
SkyScrapin & elwarpo nailed it on the head.
When I got everything for this set up (Breach, KVC & IC/Mod Armory stuff) and after using it for about a week I was pretty disappointed with it. I was debating between the COTI (at current prices) or the Breach and felt like I made the wrong decision. I'd spoken to a few guys who said I should be able to make it work so I kept at it. I figured maybe I just need to use it more but I still couldn't make it work. No matter what I tried with the D-14 and dovetail adapter I couldn't get it to work. I was going to order the IC/MA dedicated Breach arm but QD is important to me so I didn't and I focused on the KVC.
I started by playing with different mounting positions. The -14 is a -14 and more forgiving so I didn't mess with it and focused on the Breach. I tried each MUM rail, both K clips, and different IPD spacing. When I got to the rail, K clip, and IPD setting mentioned in the video it was immediately apparent it was better and overlaid very good. Of course that's with my eye spacing/facial geometry. Ambient lighting, the brightness of each device, using portrait layout, and how fresh or tired your eyes are play a big role in how it works or at least for me they do. For instance, last night with zero clouds and a bright ass Moon the thermal was hard to pickup until outdoor alert made a good hit.
It isn't actual "fusion" but rather a good overlay, however, certain objects do appear "fused" in outdoor alert and other times the thermal & NV images are slightly offset. With the new configuration I found the offset is close whereas before it was way too offset and produced a bad double image that made my eyes & brain hurt. It forces your brain to work harder than usual. When scanning across different scenes my brain will start switching between NV & thermal until it settles on which one it wants. By good overlay, what I mean is that when I get a good outdoor alert hit, my focus shifts to the thermal and I see the portrait layout thermal image superimposed on the NV image. This is why at least for me it has to be in portrait layout so it can superimpose and you can still see the NV image.
I used the poor wifey to help me find the right configuration. I'm blessed to have such an awesome woman who actually likes this stuff and is willing to stay up late at night in the cold. If you don't have one of those and have livestock around that should work too (LOL). It works awesome when I get a good outdoor alert hit because the bright colors make it pop against black hot which can ghost out and my brain immediately switches to the thermal image.
ETA: I have my -14 on my dominant eye. I swapped from GP to WP tonight and the WP does work better with the black hot in outdoor alert mode.
SkyScrapin & elwarpo nailed it on the head.
When I got everything for this set up (Breach, KVC & IC/Mod Armory stuff) and after using it for about a week I was pretty disappointed with it. I was debating between the COTI (at current prices) or the Breach and felt like I made the wrong decision. I'd spoken to a few guys who said I should be able to make it work so I kept at it. I figured maybe I just need to use it more but I still couldn't make it work. No matter what I tried with the D-14 and dovetail adapter I couldn't get it to work. I was going to order the IC/MA dedicated Breach arm but QD is important to me so I didn't and I focused on the KVC.
I started by playing with different mounting positions. The -14 is a -14 and more forgiving so I didn't mess with it and focused on the Breach. I tried each MUM rail, both K clips, and different IPD spacing. When I got to the rail, K clip, and IPD setting mentioned in the video it was immediately apparent it was better and overlaid very good. Of course that's with my eye spacing/facial geometry. Ambient lighting, the brightness of each device, using portrait layout, and how fresh or tired your eyes are play a big role in how it works or at least for me they do. For instance, last night with zero clouds and a bright ass Moon the thermal was hard to pickup until outdoor alert made a good hit.
It isn't actual "fusion" but rather a good overlay, however, certain objects do appear "fused" in outdoor alert and other times the thermal & NV images are slightly offset. With the new configuration I found the offset is close whereas before it was way too offset and produced a bad double image that made my eyes & brain hurt. It forces your brain to work harder than usual. When scanning across different scenes my brain will start switching between NV & thermal until it settles on which one it wants. By good overlay, what I mean is that when I get a good outdoor alert hit, my focus shifts to the thermal and I see the portrait layout thermal image superimposed on the NV image. This is why at least for me it has to be in portrait layout so it can superimpose and you can still see the NV image.
I used the poor wifey to help me find the right configuration. I'm blessed to have such an awesome woman who actually likes this stuff and is willing to stay up late at night in the cold. If you don't have one of those and have livestock around that should work too (LOL). It works awesome when I get a good outdoor alert hit because the bright colors make it pop against black hot which can ghost out and my brain immediately switches to the thermal image.
ETA: I have my -14 on my dominant eye. I swapped from GP to WP tonight and the WP does work better with the black hot in outdoor alert mode.
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Unfortunately, like a lot of this stuff, you have to see it/use it yourself to know if it'll work for you. Just know that it is a gamble that it could or could not work for you (overlaid on NV) or that you may not like it even if it does.
I can definitely see how this setup would favor hunters with a thermal scope because it's really comfortable to scan with head mounted thermal. Having thermal up full time you also have a better chance of catching something versus handheld since it's not up all of the time. For this type of application if you're stationary & scanning I'd probably just rotate up the -14 to focus entirely on the thermal.
Ok, under this scenario I get it, each eye is taking in info from both devices at the same time. This thread is the first time that I have ever heard of people moving the devices close enough together to allow each eye to take in info from two devices at once.
A few years back I mounted a 14 and a FLIR M24 but I do not believe the width of the 24 would have allowed them to be mounted close enough to accomplish what you described above. Under what I would term "standard mounting" where each eye is dedicated to looking through one device my brain said pick one image at a time, so I was always closing one eye to concentrate on the image from one device at time.
I had kicked around the idea of adding a COTI onto the 14 but I find myself liking straight thermal more and obviously the COTI has to be viewed through the NV device. I guess until the ENVG-B becomes available at an affordable price point or someone else invents another true fusion device at decent price point I still think that PSQ-20 is the only real option or better yet when paired with a 14. Your neck will hate you but it gives you duals.
Side note as much as I despise the thought of China Skeets I found a vid by a. armatine on Youtube that depicted his dual MH25's interesting.
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I can't speak for elwarpo, but for my set up to work I had to bring the Breach pretty much all the way in towards the -14 with the K clip mounted on a specific rail. I can see the entire Breach screen in portrait mode and I also see the full -14 eyepiece. So, in my case they are not overlapped.
ETA: I suppose the FOV of both devices do overlap some but I still see the complete image of both devices.
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Are those of you who are running a pvs-14 right eye and Breach left eye noticing an offset of the thermal image to the right of the i2 image? I've kind of learned to live with it, and will start illuminating a couple of feet left to find what I've spotted in thermal. I will go back and try again with portrait mode to see if the offset is decreased.
I shot some side by side ANVRS/Breach footage stalking up on some yotes last weekend - will post once I can edit. I can't imagine not having thermal at this point - it would feel like being blind. I can spot deer with thermal that I cannot even find under i2 unless they spook or I happen to get eye shine. They can literally be standing there 20yds away in some brush where it is so obvious on thermal, yet completely impossible to find with i2.
I shot some side by side ANVRS/Breach footage stalking up on some yotes last weekend - will post once I can edit. I can't imagine not having thermal at this point - it would feel like being blind. I can spot deer with thermal that I cannot even find under i2 unless they spook or I happen to get eye shine. They can literally be standing there 20yds away in some brush where it is so obvious on thermal, yet completely impossible to find with i2.
This exactly.
Even those highly touted Unicorn 3000 to 4000 FOM filmless White Phosphor units are "blind" compared to someone with a standard Omni 7 GP and Breach or COTI on it.
I prefer a solid standard NV tube for walking around, combined with head mounted thermal, either COTI or Breach. Way bigger bang for the buck vs blowing a wad on super tubes IMHO.
What is everyone's preference for bridges? If this is going to derail, I'm happy to start a thread on it. Looking to bridge a 14 and NOX. Was looking at the ModArmory bridge but I'm not sure if I will wish I had adjustment for each eye like a Knight's bridge?
I run the ModArmory Bridge both Quick Detach and Lightweight with a PVS 14 and Breach and they both work fine for me.
I even sometimes run a COTI on the 14 on my left eye and a Breach on my right. Point being when I engage something I can roll up my Breach on my right eye and use a Weapon Mounted Thermal but still have Thermal working on my Helmet via the COTI on the 14.
So I am never "naked" so to speak.
I even sometimes run a COTI on the 14 on my left eye and a Breach on my right. Point being when I engage something I can roll up my Breach on my right eye and use a Weapon Mounted Thermal but still have Thermal working on my Helmet via the COTI on the 14.
So I am never "naked" so to speak.
I snagged a knights bridge and love it. Dont have experience with others, but the lock up and adjustability is incredible.
Based on my experience I would recommend the KVC or Wilcox. The D-14 is a great dual -14 mount and I've used it for a long time but it lacks the finer adjustments such as IPD and fore & aft with the OSS collared shoe which may be necessary to fine tune & tailor your set up.
The fore & aft sliding adjustment on the OSS may be necessary to get the PVS-14 eyepiece lined up with the NOX at the back of the bridge. The D-14 doesn't have this adjustment for the PVS-14 so your only fore & aft adjustment would be with their MUM rail interface.
I should add, I'm by no means "pitching" one manufacturer over the other. The D-14 could work great for you or it could not. There's only one way to find out unfortunately. The KVC or Wilcox since there are more adjustments the odds are higher that they will function better.
Seeing how the KVC stuff seems to be out of stock everywhere, it's not a bad idea to start with the D-14 as long as you know in advance that you may need to flip it and get a different dual bridge. If you do the D-14 I'd get the version with the dedicated thermal arm or add it to the standard in addition to the dovetail adapter so you have two options to try.
Seeing how the KVC stuff seems to be out of stock everywhere, it's not a bad idea to start with the D-14 as long as you know in advance that you may need to flip it and get a different dual bridge. If you do the D-14 I'd get the version with the dedicated thermal arm or add it to the standard in addition to the dovetail adapter so you have two options to try.
To clarify a bit... At first i had it set up where one eye was Thermal and the other was PVS. I had to close one eye or the other to see. This was frustrating and uncomfortable. I played with brightness (need both to be about the same), and positioning until it felt better. There is a sweet spot where you see both and the brain overlays them. Took a bit of playing with it at first, but now it works.
The downside to thermal is the square image. My experience with the Mod Armory bridge is that my skeet is tilted in it, so the image is worse than square. The KAC one is great.
@DoubleHaul I'm running NV on my right eye (dominant) and Breach on the left. When the thermal is offset it's offset to the left. When I swapped eyes it was reversed.
Regarding WN&H about higher spec vs average spec tubes, I agree while using them together the specs aren't as critical. But....at least for me, once I start moving/navigating requiring primary use of NV (especially in low light) a higher spec tube pays dividends IMO. I also give my thermal eye a break here and there rotating it up and it's really nice to have a higher performing NV view of things.
Regarding WN&H about higher spec vs average spec tubes, I agree while using them together the specs aren't as critical. But....at least for me, once I start moving/navigating requiring primary use of NV (especially in low light) a higher spec tube pays dividends IMO. I also give my thermal eye a break here and there rotating it up and it's really nice to have a higher performing NV view of things.
Here's my quick attempt and splicing the Breach and ANVRS footage together. I should have turned my pvs-14 gain up to help the recording brightness (did it at the very end). Still not very impressed with the ANVRS recordings, they never do it justice.
Got in pretty close to a pair of coyotes. Never would have known they were there without the Breach.
Got in pretty close to a pair of coyotes. Never would have known they were there without the Breach.
Alright, I managed do do this using the existing footage. It's a close representation of what it looks like. Funny part, in the section where you see a noticeable double vision is basically what it looked like before I was able to get them to overlay better, lol
The Breach was in landscape view because that's how I did the video for the side by side. It looks much different in portrait view. As soon as I have time I'll try to replicate it better by videoing on a jig and in portrait view.
ETA: Portrait does look better because you can see more of the NV image.
The Breach was in landscape view because that's how I did the video for the side by side. It looks much different in portrait view. As soon as I have time I'll try to replicate it better by videoing on a jig and in portrait view.
ETA: Portrait does look better because you can see more of the NV image.
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