Ear problem from shooting.

[jlow]

I’ve worked for 4 years as an IDPA SO in matches and practice so not new to guns and gunfire. Pretty careful with my ears as always double plug using both a set of Radian custom molded earplugs and a pair of Howard Leight electronic impact shooting sport earmuff. Two weeks ago, I RO my first 2-gun match and met my first loud rifle using comps. I must say that despite the fact that I too have also been using a comp on my carbine in the same matches for 4 years, I was not ready for how loud the thing was from an RO perspective, especially when the guns were firing next to barrels. Did not think much of it until the time I left the range when I felt like I had some water in my ear after swimming. That feeling went away after a couple of hours and I still did not think much of it – thought it was just a mild ear infection.

Last Saturday I worked again as an SO in an IDPA match and there was a guy shooting a snub nose 357 magnum and it was again pretty loud… The next morning I woke up with pains in my ear and the same full feeling in them like they have fluid in them. It’s now 3 days and the full feeling is still there…. Hearing is OK but a little research found that my ears were likely damaged by the loud noise. I have a health science background with an advance degree and 20 years of work experience so not exactly a noob.

Just wondering if anyone else has had this experience using this degree of protection which I normally would rate as excessive/conservative.

 

[bkw1911]

hmm, bummer. I usually hang back a bit when RO'ing comped guns but i usually am fine with molded ear plugs fitted tight and my howard leights over top. A couple things to consider is the ear muffs lose alot when over glasses and can get opened up a bit. The other problem is the howard leights (the thin od green ones im assuming you have) are not rated very high. I like them for uspsa but for rifles with compensators they are not great at all. Id go grab yourself something with alot higher rating that fits alot tighter and make sure you get some low profile glasses that will still allow for a good seal. Good luck to you.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

First off, I think you should go see an ear specialist. Something ain't right.

Secondly, doubling up on earpro basically adds 5dB of NRR to the NRR rating of the item rated highest.

Examples:

30NRR plugs + 25NRR muffs = 30+5 = ~35NRR

30NRR plugs + 20NRR muffs = 30+5 = ~35NRR

The highest NRR plugs I've ever seen are rated at 33NRR, which is higher than any muff I've ever seen. Regardless, it only makes sense to use the highest NRR muff available. Overall NRR will be ~38 or so.

If that isn't solving the problem,you've simply got to get further away from the sound source.

 

[jlow]

Bkw1911 - It was one of those blind stages with an opening with a barricade behind the opening and a wall on the other side so I think that is the reason for the “trapped” sound. I wear Oakley M frames and so they are pretty thin but it is impossible to say whether my ear muffs may be slightly off or not. The Howard Leight I was using is in fact rated at an NRR 22db which is decent and frankly better than the MSA which most people regard very highly. Frankly I think you can only get higher rating if you go to the really big bulky Peltors which MidwayUSA sells (NRR 30db) which I might have to go to if I work as an RO again…

HodgdonExtreme – Yes, I might be going to see a doctor soon if it does not go away.

So by your calculations, my protection was around = 27 db which is pretty good. Like I said, I’ve done this for a long time with little trouble but it seems like I ran into double trouble this last two weeks which is unfortunate.

The rifle comps are in fact very loud and in a bad setup described above, they seemed impossibly loud even considering what I was wearing…

 

[Pinecone]

First off, I think you should go see an ear specialist. Something ain't right.

Secondly, doubling up on earpro basically adds 5dB of NRR to the NRR rating of the item rated highest.

Examples:

30NRR plugs + 25NRR muffs = 30+5 = ~35NRR

30NRR plugs + 20NRR muffs = 30+5 = ~35NRR

The highest NRR plugs I've ever seen are rated at 33NRR, which is higher than any muff I've ever seen. Regardless, it only makes sense to use the highest NRR muff available. Overall NRR will be ~38 or so.

If that isn't solving the problem,you've simply got to get further away from the sound source.

Where did you get that double earpro just adds 5=dB to the protection?

Occupationally we would add the two together, but for actual protection, use 1/2 the NRR.

But there is a limit of 45 dB for any setup of ear protection due to done conduction taking over at that point.


But has been mentioned, stepping back a step or two (still close enough to control shooter and firearm) really reduces the exposure. I would do this when I ROd USPSA and compensated pistols.

 

[LawnMM]

Go to the doctor.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

Where did you get that double earpro just adds 5=dB to the protection?

Occupationally we would add the two together, but for actual protection, use 1/2 the NRR.

But there is a limit of 45 dB for any setup of ear protection due to done conduction taking over at that point.


But has been mentioned, stepping back a step or two (still close enough to control shooter and firearm) really reduces the exposure. I would do this when I ROd USPSA and compensated pistols.

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/shipyard/ship_breaking/ppe/general_ppe/hearing_protection.html

Note: 5 dB can be added to the NRR of the most protective device when using both ear plugs and muffs.

Double Hearing Protection: Two Devices for Best Hearing Safety

How Much Extra Hearing Protection Do You Get?
The degree of extra protection can vary widely, but typically the combined noise reduction rating (NRR) will be about 4 to 8 decibels (dB) higher than the higher of the two individual NRRs. For example, if the ear plugs have an NRR of 25, and the ear muffs have an NRR of 21, the combined NRR might be between 29 and 33 dB. As a rule of thumb, an improvement of 5 dB is often assumed, for a combined NRR of 30 in this example.

This 4 to 8 dB of additional protection translates into a 60% to 85% reduction in sound intensity, a marked reduction in the risk of hearing damage.

Sound Source: Dual Protection | HearForever

In terms of estimating the amount of protection while wearing earplugs and earmuffs concurrently, the most commonly used practice is to add 5 dB to the higher published attenuation. But this rule of thumb sacrifices some accuracy. An earmuff typically adds about 4 dB to the published attenuation of a well-fitted foam earplug, and about 7 dB to a well-fitted pre-molded earplug. These are overall numbers; attenuation in the low frequencies will be a bit more, and in the high frequencies a bit less. As noted in the graph below, it is not necessary to use the highest-rated earmuff to achieve maximum attenuation from dual protection.

 

[thrusty]

I've experienced the same from all the matches and shooting I'm around 10 hours a day, 3 days a week. The sensation of your ears being plugged up with water does go away but you can expect tinnitus for the rest of your days. I had a bad run of what you're describing after a long range match with 40 shooters on the same firing line at the same time and I was only wearing 28db plugs...lasted about a week for me.

I wear 3M 33db plugs and the Howard Leight muffs...this limits the sounds pretty good for me but the jaw bones still conduct a good bit from the brakes people use.
I say "huh?" to the folks that don't speak up on the range, but I don't get the water in the ear feeling anymore. I have minor tinnitus, but it's only noticeable when I'm in complete silence.

 

[jlow]

Thanks thrusty! Sorry to hear that you had the same problem but much appreciate the info.

 

[lash]

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/shipyard/ship_breaking/ppe/general_ppe/hearing_protection.html

Double Hearing Protection: Two Devices for Best Hearing Safety

Sound Source: Dual Protection | HearForever

That's good info that I did not know. Thanks for the links.

 

[thrusty]

Thanks thrusty! Sorry to hear that you had the same problem but much appreciate the info.

Happy to help.

I've also not had any luck with custom plugs - my ears break the seal every time I talk, chew or move my head...
If you're interested, here's the foam plugs that work best for me (Classic Plus ones are longer than typical):

Amazon.com: 3M E-A-R Classic Plus Uncorded Earplugs, Hearing Conservation 310-1101 in Pillow Pack: Industrial & Scientific

 

[Speeddog]

I've ahead a similar experience with custom plugs. Had mine remade several times in hopes of getting better seal, using a variety of tricks to enhance the casts. Didn't work well enough to prevent some right ear high freq loss and it's associated tinnitus. Kind of a bummer for someone who makes his living in part with his ears and who also likes music.

Losses are permanent and there's not much point to seeing a doc. Therapy is to PREVENT the sound related injury.

I am in medicine and researched this thoroughly. Some folks have tried to use an acute course of corticosteroids for noise injury. There are no good randomized trials and reports are largely anecdotal. Results are hard to distinguish from placebo. For what it's worth I treated my own injury with a course: didn't help a bit.

I've always been careful about my hearing so this is a bummer for me. Hope it's not been to bad for other thread participants.
For my part I'm using dual protection though I don't love the muffs.

 

[Name Enough]

Spent my time in the service long ago and we never wore any hearing protection. We had ACAVs with two M60s one port and one starboard and a 50 Cal up front. When they would cut loose you wouldn't hear anything for 15 or 20 minutes. Today I wear both plugs and muffs and I don't have a problem except from folks at the range that have large caliber rifles with brakes shooting next to me. I usually move. If you feel concussion from a shooter next you then move.

You should see the doc ASAP and lay off shooting for a little while.

I had that ringing in ears for years and years but it went away. It's was pretty bad at night when everything else was quiet and you were trying to sleep but as said it went away after 25 years or so.
Had to drink a lot before I went to bed back then. Come to think of it I still do.

 

[jlow]

My custom ear plugs actually work pretty good. They are good enough to allow me to be on the handgun range without the ear muffs, not that I do that at any frequency or on purpose. They are definitely not good enough for rifle or when I am close to a handgun shooter. When I have the plugs and muffs on, I can barely hear normal conversation unless I turn the electronic muffs on full. In my case, it was just situational with the comp/barricade holding the sound in and the snub nose 357 firing close to a barrel.

I am going to take a break from working as an SO/RO for a few months to see if things get better. I am sure I will continue to shoot but not sure I will continue to volunteer as an SO/RO.

I have good insurance coverage and so made an appointment for tomorrow with the doc.

 

[shoot4fun]

I have exposed my ears to a lot of harsh noise pollution. Shooting and RO'ing matches is just one facet. For many years I worked in the telecom industry and had all manner of tones blasted directly into my eardrums from test systems. I, at one time, RO'd 10 major matches in one year in the height of my USPSA days. Those comp guns really work on your hearing.
I never noticed I was going deaf until a friend basically forced me to see a hearing specialist. At the end of the test I was absolutely amazed at just how bad things had gotten. To the point where the doctor said I didn't need hearing protection any more because I couldn't hurt my ears any more.

 

[roggom]

Do what you must to protect your hearing, see a specialist and follow his recommendation. Not that there isnt any good info here as well. I wonder if there is any baffling you can put at the range to absorb/deaden some of the sound.

Anyway my point

My stepdad had occupational exposure to noise and has some major tinnitus. It saddens me to see how much he suffers, as it is constant and all day long. its one thing to lose your hearing and another to be tortured by ringing.

 

[jlow]

T140 – the thing about the MSA is that I was actually looking into getting a pair thinking perhaps it and the gel pads might be more protective but I was surprised to see that their NRR number was lower than the Howard Leight?

I have actually been real good about protecting my hearing as I am one of those guys that wear ear protection even when I am mowing the lawn…. The stuff at the range was unfortunately a bit out of my control but at least at this point limited. So hopefully this is a minor setback… Don’t know….

 

[scotharr]

T140 – the thing about the MSA is that I was actually looking into getting a pair thinking perhaps it and the gel pads might be more protective but I was surprised to see that their NRR number was lower than the Howard Leight?

I have actually been real good about protecting my hearing as I am one of those guys that wear ear protection even when I am mowing the lawn…. The stuff at the range was unfortunately a bit out of my control but at least at this point limited. So hopefully this is a minor setback… Don’t know….

One important take away from all this great info is that good ole foam earplugs offer the best hearing protection, better than custom-molded ones when they are inserted fully. Add your choice of muffs and you'll have the best protection you can get. A few extra dBs of protection is a LOT.

 

[t140]

T140 – the thing about the MSA is that I was actually looking into getting a pair thinking perhaps it and the gel pads might be more protective but I was surprised to see that their NRR number was lower than the Howard Leight?

I have actually been real good about protecting my hearing as I am one of those guys that wear ear protection even when I am mowing the lawn…. The stuff at the range was unfortunately a bit out of my control but at least at this point limited. So hopefully this is a minor setback… Don’t know….

Indeed they are. I'm not sure if I got a freak pair or what. I tell ya what, though. After my last concussion, noises that weren't so loud are really loud now.

I agree that foamies are great. I always double up these days. And Scotharr is right, the decibel system is not linear. A few extra dbs of protectection at the high end will provide a lot.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

My understanding is muzzle brakes add ~10dB to the report of a rifle shot.

That's huge. I repeat, an extra 10dB is a MASSIVE increase in sound level!

From what I've read, braked rifle shots are on the order of ~165dB. Even with ~35dB of attenuation, that is still 130dB on your ears.

I have always been careful with my ear pro, but I've developed a bit of tinnitus in my right ear.

I'm beginning to think there isn't ANY earpro that will render lots of braked rifle shots harmless.

 

[t140]

My understanding is muzzle brakes add ~10dB to the report of a rifle shot.

That's huge. I repeat, an extra 10dB is a MASSIVE increase in sound level!

From what I've read, braked rifle shots are on the order of ~165dB. Even with ~35dB of attenuation, that is still 130dB on your ears.

I have always been careful with my ear pro, but I've developed a bit of tinnitus in my right ear.

I'm beginning to think there isn't ANY earpro that will render lots of braked rifle shots harmless.

A suppressor would. Too bad they're so taboo. You can't even own one in my state unless you're LEO.

 

[jlow]

My understanding is muzzle brakes add ~10dB to the report of a rifle shot.

That's huge. I repeat, an extra 10dB is a MASSIVE increase in sound level!

From what I've read, braked rifle shots are on the order of ~165dB. Even with ~35dB of attenuation, that is still 130dB on your ears.

I have always been careful with my ear pro, but I've developed a bit of tinnitus in my right ear.

I'm beginning to think there isn't ANY earpro that will render lots of braked rifle shots harmless.

I think this is correct especially if the sound gets trapped by a barricade or barrel......

 

[jsragman]

HUH?

 

[jlow]

No mystery to those that shoots a lot. Anytime that you shoot your gun next to any obstruction be it a wall or a barrel, some of that sound that normally dissipates will get reflected back. The closer and the more the obstruction i.e. 2-sides , 3-sides, or of course 4-sides, the louder the report. For example, try shooting a handgun in the open, now shoot it between 2 barrels, trust me have good hearing protection before you try this.

 

[Surffshr]

See a doc if you think it may be an infection. Like tomorrow. I'm two months into one, lost all hearing in that ear, and may have to have surgery to try to clear the infection. Who knows if I get the hearing back at this point. Doc recommended seeing a hearing aid guy after my last visit...

 

[hermosabeach]

I threw away my customer ear plugs as the foam plugs are quieter... I also like the full size peltors, not the slim rifle models...


and yes, comps will ring your bell... the concussion hits your skull and the energy travels everywhere....

Stay out of the blast zone....

 

[jlow]

Found the following on Wikipedia - makes for interesting reading:

Measurements indicate that on a rifle, a muzzle brake adds 5 to 10 dB to the normal noise level perceived by the shooter, increasing total noise levels up to 160 dB(A) +/- 3 dB.[12] Painful discomfort occurs at approximately 120 to 125 dB(A),[13] with some references claiming 133 dB(A) for the threshold of pain.[14] Active ear muffs are available with electronic noise cancellation that can reduce direct path ear canal noise by approximately 17–33 dB, depending on the low, medium, or high frequency at which attenuation is measured.[15] Passive ear plugs vary in their measured attenuation, ranging from 20 dB to 30 dB, depending on whether they are properly used.[16] Using both ear muffs (whether passive or active) and ear plugs simultaneously results in maximum protection, but the efficacy of such combined protection relative to preventing permanent ear damage is inconclusive, with evidence indicating that a combined noise reduction ratio (NRR) of only 36 dB (C-weighted) is the maximum possible using ear muffs and ear plugs simultaneously, equating to only a 36 - 7 = 29 dB(A) protection against a 160 dB(A) noise level.[14] Relative to a noise level of 160 dB(A), this means that even using ear muffs and ear plugs simultaneously cannot protect a shooter against permanent ear damage when using a muzzle brake, through leaving a shooter exposed to noise levels of approximately 131 dB(A) that is 11 dB above the point where permanent ear damage occurs.