Rifle Scopes Elevation Adjustment Use Up Windage?

DeepEastKilla

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This is a very "noobish" question but ive just never really thought about it before and i couldnt find the topic anywhere. I read a few post on various forums of guys who said they needed more adjustment or a "MOA base" to get the adjustment they need to a certain range when windage was needed. so lets say if you are nearly maxed out on elevation and end up needing windage can u use up the moa that is needed for the elevation or visa-versa.

im looking at a nikon 6-18x40 that has 50moa total elevation adjustment and i was already wondering the 25moa is enough to get me by but now hearing that i may loose some adjustment when windage is needed so maybe i really should go with a 20 moa base. being that i would really only have 5 moa to work with in sighting in is that generally enough?


thanks again guys.
 

fdkay

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    Re: Elevation Adjustment Use Up Windage?

    Not quite sure what exactly you are asking.
    The up/down turret means just that, it raises and lowers the reticle, it moves only on a vertical plane.

    The windage moves the reticle left and right, it only moves on a horizontal plane.

    If you plan on shooting long distance, you'll need more adjustment ability than that scope provides.

    HOWEVER, Nikon is a very nice scope, and the available adjustment range will enable you to shoot far beyond your current abilities.
    By the time you are ready to stretch beyond the capability of the scope, you will have a more thorough understanding of what you need and will be ready to upgrade anyway.
     

    DeepEastKilla

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    Re: Elevation Adjustment Use Up Windage?

    im trying to say, well actually, is that does the use of windage affect the amount of elevation adjustment the scope gives you.

    im asking the question because ive heard things like this "The optic on it has a 1" tube with 50 MOA (total) of adjustment and it takes 25-26 MOA shooting Federal Gold Metal to get to 200. With the 20 MOA base I should be right in the middle range of elevation adjustment and have plenty adjustment to dial in for windage."

    to me this implies that if you are almost out of elevation and need to dial windage that when you do dial it you will loose even more of that needed elevation adjustment. Ive been shooting for a while but never really thought about this subject.
     

    DirtyRod

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    Re: Elevation Adjustment Use Up Windage?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeepEastKilla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im trying to say, well actually, is that does the use of windage affect the amount of elevation adjustment the scope gives you.

    im asking the question because ive heard things like this "The optic on it has a 1" tube with 50 MOA (total) of adjustment and it takes 25-26 MOA shooting Federal Gold Metal to get to 200. With the 20 MOA base I should be right in the middle range of elevation adjustment and have plenty adjustment to dial in for windage."

    to me this implies that if you are almost out of elevation and need to dial windage that when you do dial it you will loose even more of that needed elevation adjustment. Ive been shooting for a while but never really thought about this subject. </div></div>

    The windage and elevation adjustments are independent of each other. On a scope that is operating properly, moving one will not adjust the other.

    In regards to adjustability, be aware that 50MOA of total adjustability means you have 25 up and 25 down. If everything is centered and aligned, when you add the 20MOA base you would end up with 45 MOA up, 5 MOA down, and 25 for windage each way which should be plenty for you to get started. Don't be surprised if you lose a few MOA of elevation after you zero.
     

    Aries64

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    Re: Elevation Adjustment Use Up Windage?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeepEastKilla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a very "noobish" question but ive just never really thought about it before and i couldnt find the topic anywhere. I read a few post on various forums of guys who said they needed more adjustment or a "MOA base" to get the adjustment they need to a certain range when windage was needed.</div></div>
    From your quote of <span style="font-style: italic">"MOA base"</span> I take it that you are unfamiliar with "canted" / "angled" bases, their design, and how their installation affects scope operation. So a brief explanation is called-for:

    <span style="font-weight: bold">"MOA"</span> is an acronym for <span style="font-style: italic">"Minute of Angle"</span>. Bases can be "flat" with 0 (zero) MOA built-in, or they can be machined with a pre-determined amount of MOA built-in. Bases with built-in MOA are taller at the rear than the front, hence the terms <span style="font-style: italic">"canted"</span> and <span style="font-style: italic">"angled"</span>. The resulting downward angle of the scope reduces the amount of elevation that is required to "zero" the scope, which leaves more "UP" available. Canted bases shift MOA from the low end of the scope's adjustment range to the high end of the adjustment range, extending the effective range of a given scope. 20 MOA is commonly used on centerfire rifles and typically gets you pretty close to zero at 100 yards with a .308.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeepEastKilla</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...so lets say if you are nearly maxed out on elevation and end up needing windage can u use up the moa that is needed for the elevation or visa-versa.</div></div>
    No. Don't forget that the scope tube is round, and as the reticle is moved away from center the available adjustment is reduced. If you are close to maximum adjustment of the Elevation you have reduced the <span style="font-style: italic">available</span> travel of the Windage, and vice-versa.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeepEastKilla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im looking at a nikon 6-18x40 that has 50moa total elevation adjustment and i was already wondering the 25moa is enough to get me by but now hearing that i may loose some adjustment when windage is needed so maybe i really should go with a 20 moa base. being that i would really only have 5 moa to work with in sighting in is that generally enough?</div></div>
    Definitely get the 20 MOA base - there is no downside to it, only upside. Not only will the 20 MOA base help extend the effective range of your scope, but it will help keep the adjustments closer to "center". <span style="font-style: italic">Generally speaking</span>, scopes adjust and track more accurately within the middle range of their adjustments (high-end scopes are built to more exacting specifications with higher grade components and, while no manufacturer is infallible, usually don't suffer in this regard).

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeepEastKilla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks again guys. </div></div>
    You're welcome. Hope this helps.


    Keith
     

    HillbillyfromAL

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    Re: Elevation Adjustment Use Up Windage?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeepEastKilla</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #33FF33">im trying to say, well actually, is that does the use of windage affect the amount of elevation adjustment the scope gives you.
    </span>
    im asking the question because ive heard things like this "The optic on it has a 1" tube with 50 MOA (total) of adjustment and <span style="color: #FF0000">it takes 25-26 MOA shooting Federal Gold Metal to get to 200.</span> With the 20 MOA base I should be right in the middle range of elevation adjustment and have plenty adjustment to dial in for windage."

    <span style="color: #FF6600">to me this implies that if you are almost out of elevation and need to dial windage</span> that when you do dial it you will loose even more of that needed elevation adjustment. Ive been shooting for a while but never really thought about this subject.</div></div>
    First yes a 20moa base will affect your how your scope adjustment is compared to zero. If you add a 20moa base you will have 5moa down and 45 up. If your shooting at 100yds and it takes you 8moa down from the center of the scopes adjustment you would not be able to zero at 100yds anymore. You would have to zero at 200 yds.

    As for the stuff in red unless your throwing bowling balls it doesn't take 25-26moa to get to 200yds. When you get a good zero on a scope you loosen the turrets and turn them to zero. Now you can count your moa from zero.

    The stuff in orange: THIS IS IMPORTANT to understand. Elevation Controls the Up and Down. Windage Left and Right. You don't run out of elevation and need to dial windage. They don't do the same thing. Your scope has an arrow on it either on the turret or infront of it, for the one on top of the scope it says up, the one on the right side says right. These refer to the movement of the bullet in comparison to the target. The up and down is Elevation the Left and Right is windage.

    Using the knobs to dial in for range and wind: You get a good zero at 100yds, zero the turrets, recheck the zero. Move to 200 don't touch the knobs yet, fire and get a group and see how much adjustment is needed to have the crosshairs right on the target and the bullet to hit right at poa. this is usually 1.5to 2.5moa. That is dialed as up on the elevation if you have wind pushing the bullet that would be adjusted with the windage. Now google search shooterready and play with that for a couple of weeks and you should get a nice understanding of both elevation/windage and how to mil range using a reticle. The demos are free so use them.
     

    DirtyRod

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    Re: Elevation Adjustment Use Up Windage?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillbillyfromAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First yes a 20moa base will affect your how your scope adjustment is compared to zero. If you add a 20moa base you will have 5moa down and 45 up. If your shooting at 100yds and it takes you 8moa down from the center of the scopes adjustment you would not be able to zero at 100yds anymore. You would have to zero at 200 yds.
    </div></div>

    Your receiver would have to be really out of alignment to be 8MOA off at 100 yards. I've got an Elite 4200 6-24x50 which also has 50 MOA advertised but only 44 actual. It's been on three rifles with 20MOA bases and all were able to zero at 100 yards. The 700 I'm using now has the worst alignment but I've still got 5 down and 39 up after a 100 yard zero. Mine have been as high as 6MOA off on Windage but the elevation has always been <4 and low rather than high using up my Windage to get to zero.
     

    HillbillyfromAL

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    Re: Elevation Adjustment Use Up Windage?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DirtyRod</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillbillyfromAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First yes a 20moa base will affect your how your scope adjustment is compared to zero. If you add a 20moa base you will have 5moa down and 45 up. If your shooting at 100yds and it takes you 8moa down from the center of the scopes adjustment you would not be able to zero at 100yds anymore. You would have to zero at 200 yds.
    </div></div>

    Your receiver would have to be really out of alignment to be 8MOA off at 100 yards. I've got an Elite 4200 6-24x50 which also has 50 MOA advertised but only 44 actual. It's been on three rifles with 20MOA bases and all were able to zero at 100 yards. The 700 I'm using now has the worst alignment but I've still got 5 down and 39 up after a 100 yard zero. Mine have been as high as 6MOA off on Windage but the elevation has always been <4 and low rather than high using up my Windage to get to zero. </div></div>

    That was an example of why you would need to zero at 200 nothing more. I wasn't trying to say that he would not be able to zero at 100 with a 20moa base. If it sounded like that thats not what I meant.
     

    dcjs

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    Re: Elevation Adjustment Use Up Windage?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aries64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No. Don't forget that the scope tube is round, and as the reticle is moved away from center the available adjustment is reduced. If you are close to maximum adjustment of the Elevation you have reduced the <span style="font-style: italic">available</span> travel of the Windage, and vice-versa.</div></div>
    It depends. It is possible that you run into the scope tube wall when you dial in windage with your elevation maxed out, if the manufacturer has chosen to allow this in order to make the adjustment range seem impressive on paper, but not fully usable in practice. In this case, you are indeed moving a round tube (erector tube) inside another round tube (main tube of the scope) inside a circular area.

    Premier scopes for example have a rectangular adjustment range, meaning the full specified amount of windage is available at any elevation setting and it is not possible to run the erector into the tube wall, which could cause erratic shift of zero or even damage to the internals. The range of movement is rectangular, not circular, so you always get what is specified in the spec sheet. This is one of the many "hidden" design details that set a good scope apart from a, well, not-so-good scope.

    You'll have to ask the manufacturer of the scope in question how it is designed in this respect, or test for this condition for yourself.
     

    DeepEastKilla

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    Re: Elevation Adjustment Use Up Windage?

    sorry for coming off as such a complete noob in this situation.

    when i said moa base i was just trying to abbreviate the phrase instead of saying "20 MOA canted base) i am aware of how they work. i was just unsure if the 5 moa of "up" adjustment left after installing a 20 MOA base would be enough to keep a 100 yard zero.




    "<span style="color: #FF6666">No. Don't forget that the scope tube is round, and as the reticle is moved away from center the available adjustment is reduced. If you are close to maximum adjustment of the Elevation you have reduced the available travel of the Windage, and vice-versa.</span>"

    this is basically the whole point of the thread originally. i wasnt sure if this was why i would loose adjustment at the full use of the scopes range.




    "<span style="color: #FF0000">As for the stuff in red unless your throwing bowling balls it doesn't take 25-26moa to get to 200yds. When you get a good zero on a scope you loosen the turrets and turn them to zero. Now you can count your moa from zero.</span>"


    that quote was taken from a post in the rimfire forum. it was only to get an example of what i was talking about and not to give any information on the actual setup i would be using.



    even hough my originally post confused a lot of us i think i got the info i needed. thanks again for the help even if you did have to do more than was needed. Ive learned more from this forum than any other on the subject.
     

    chad3

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    Re: Elevation Adjustment Use Up Windage?

    The last few seem to be leaning more towards what I think you are asking. Yes, the more elevation you use up in your scope, the less windage you will have. The canted bases allow more elevation up and from your thinking will allow more windage for longer amounts of time.
    Think this is what you are asking???
    Chad
     

    DeepEastKilla

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    Re: Elevation Adjustment Use Up Windage?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chad3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The last few seem to be leaning more towards what I think you are asking. Yes, the more elevation you use up in your scope, the less windage you will have. The canted bases allow more elevation up and from your thinking will allow more windage for longer amounts of time.
    Think this is what you are asking???
    Chad </div></div>

    yea i think i got what i was looking for.