Equipment to start reloading 308 + more

[timelinex]

Ok, so I have done hours and hours of reading and have got a general sense of everything, EXCEPT a couple questions.

1. What would be a good starter kit that has most of everything I need. I know Lee is the cheapest, but I heard that it's not that great for doing exact amount of powder, that will help you find those great loads. I am not worried about speed of creating just yet. If I really stick to reloading and start shooting massive amount of ammo, I have no problem selling the old stuff and upgrading.

2. What would I need on top of that kit, as far as reloading I only have calipers.

3. What brass should I get. I don't think I need something like luepa brass yet. I have 60 rounds of FGMM 175 in 7.62 . I was gonna use that, but after more reading I see that its crimped primers, so I would need another tool that costs 100+ so Im thinking it might just be easier and cheaper to get new brass? This is considering I dont plan on using 100 rounds each time I go so something like 50-100 units of brass would be enough to cycle through.

4.I have a savage 10 FCP-K. After much reading on loads, I think a good place to start is 175 SMK's and 178 AMAX's, varmint and CCI or federal primers. That sound about right?

5. I read the post about using the ladder system and only had one problem with it. It said to use 300-600 yards. Well how would 50, 100 or 200 yards do? 200 yards is the maximum at my range and the reason I mention 50 and 100 is that if Im hoping to to see what the bullet does and not me, the closer the better(to take my skill out of the equation). Would the holes be too close at 50 or 100 yards for me to tell which ones are grouping or not.


Any other suggestions are also welcome.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Equipment to start reloading 308 + more

To start with buy a couple reloading books, I started with Lee's Modern Reloading and Lyman's, Sierra would be another good one. After reading these you will have a good Idea of what you will need and a better foundation to start from. When I started hand-loading nearly 20 years ago I bought a Lyman T-Mag turret press and starter kit. If I were to buy everything over again this is my list.

#1 A quality press; this could be Lyman, Redding, RCBS or Hornady. I have five different ones for different uses/purposes and include a Lyman T-Mag, Redding big boss II, Dillon 550 progressive, RCBS partner and a Lee cheapo C press.

#2 A powder scale. I have used a balance beam but now use a digital PACT and would advise getting a quality digital scale (there are many but I am happy with the pact)

#3 A deburring tool. I use a VLD style tool for the inside and a lee universal for the out side (helpful hint: if you should ever decide to get a WSM or ultra mag don’t get a Lee, its not big enough to fit over the shoulder and yet reach the outside edge of the neck.

#4 A hand primer and shell holder, lee works well for me but again there or others to choose from.

#5 A shell trimmer, I used a Lyman for years until I got into precision reloading and realized that the Lyman was not trimming things 100% square now I use a Wilson on a Sinclair stand that takes separate shell holders for each caliber but it trims square and well worth it. Plus the Wilson is cheap. #6 A primer pocket uniformer, this is one of those things that are not necessary but I choose to do. I can’t say it makes a difference but I feel better about the quality of my brass after I do it. I use a Foster that comes on a little stand and works quickly. If you choose to do this don’t get one that you have to hold in your hand… trust me….

#7 Flash hole reamer, again this is one of those things that is not necessary but I choose to do. I can’t say it makes a difference but I feel better about the quality of my brass after I do it. Do both sides, inside the case and outside, I use a Lyman hand tool for this.

#8 A shell holder for your press, some die sets come with these, others don’t.

#9 dies specific to your cartridge caliber. I have used many different brands but my favorite is Redding full length sizing die and Redding competition bullet seating die. If you want to neck size your brass rather than full length size go with Lee’s collet neck sizer die, if you go this route you will need at some point a body sizing die.

#10 A caliper

#11 Over all length gage, and comparator attachments. I use the Hornady (formerly stoney point) this measures the length of the cartridge to the lands in your barrel and is specific to each bullet style and weight you shoot.

#12 A head space gage. I use the Hornady (formerly stoney point) gage that works with the attachment on #11. You can go with a stand alone die but I like the ability to match my chamber.

#13 Imperial sizing wax, some prefer to use spray on lube but I no longer do for any precision hand-loading. I may use spray on if I loading a large supply of brass for plinking/blasting ammo and not as concerned with precision…

#14 Depending on how you decide to measure your powder you may need a powder measure and tickler or Lee dipper cups and a tickler. Because I load such a larger verity of different stuff I have them all.

#15 Brass tumbler and media to clean your brass.

I think that about covers what I would get if starting over. As you progress in your skills you may want to get a concentricity/run-out gage and neck thickness gage as well as a neck turner but in a factory barrel/chamber neck turning is not really needed, unless you are using a Redding bushing sizing die. But I have found that it is a task (neck turning) I would rather not start. Last bit of advice on that… buy the best quality brass (Lapua or Norma) and neck turning will not be much of a issue to begin with… I not saying Federal Match brass is bad, it’s just not as uniform as Lapua and/or Norma tends to be.
A book I'd like to add to anyone wishing to improve their hand-loading skills is Glen Zediker's book "Handloading for Competition". It is not just for competition shooters but anyone wishing to see improvement in their hand-loading skill level.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Equipment to start reloading 308 + more

Ladder testing requires distance, up close you will likely end up with one ragged hole. If you are limited to shorter ranges you will find the following better than ladder testing.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

and the forum

http://practicalrifler.6.forumer.com/index.php

 

[timelinex]

Re: Equipment to start reloading 308 + more

So then even 200 yards isn't enough for the ladder test? Seems like the other test isn't nearly as good as a ladder test, and just doing 5 shot groups with different loads and seeing which is best would be a better choice.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To start with buy a couple reloading books, I started with Lee's Modern Reloading and Lyman's, Sierra would be another good one. After reading these you will have a good Idea of what yo..........r hand-loading skill level.</div></div>
Thanks for the detailed reply. I see your recommending different parts from diff manufacturers. So then you think it is better/cheaper to buying everything seperatly rather than in a kit?

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Equipment to start reloading 308 + more

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So then even 200 yards isn't enough for the ladder test? Seems like the other test isn't nearly as good as a ladder test, and just doing 5 shot groups with different loads and seeing which is best would be a better choice.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To start with buy a couple reloading books, I started with Lee's Modern Reloading and Lyman's, Sierra would be another good one. After reading these you will have a good Idea of what yo..........r hand-loading skill level.</div></div>
Thanks for the detailed reply. I see your recommending different parts from diff manufacturers. So then you think it is better/cheaper to buying everything seperatly rather than in a kit?

</div></div>

The problem with a lot of kits is a third of the stuff you won’t use or is ill-suited for precision reloading and that eats into any savings benefits that were perceived. So IMHO it would be cheaper to buy what is needed up front. Plus good stuff holds its value, should you decide to sell it off.

Ladder testing is good but to decipher the different nodes requires distance or you end up with a group of shots so close to each other it will be difficult to see the changes in the shot string. I am not saying don’t try it, I just think it will be difficult to find you nodes that close. FWIW, 300 is the nearest distance I have heard anyone testing with the ladder method.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Equipment to start reloading 308 + more

Must haves:

Quality press.

Quality powder measure: I prefer an RCBS Chargemaster.

Quality case trimmer. I have the Redding with the micrometer. Many companies make good trimmers, though.

Priming tool. I use a hand-primer from RCBS. It works ok, but it isn't ideal. What I like is I can do it while watching the news or whatever.

Appropriate case prep tools. I believe the poster above mentioned it. If you have the extra cash, the RCBS Case Prep Center is nice for doing bulk quantities. The VLD tool is a must.

You'll need good reloading dies. Redding and Forster usually are a good start.

You'll need loading trays.

Most importantly, you don't have a reason NOT to use Lapua brass.

You'll want load manuals. The Lyman manual is very informative as to the process, etc. I also highly recommend the Sierra manual.

You'll also want a good log/data book.

 

[fireEMT5]

Re: Equipment to start reloading 308 + more

I'll add just a couple more things:

A note book or journal - once you read the manuals, make yourself some notes writing down the steps you preform so as to not skip something.

Zip lock freezer bags - quart or gallon size along with a roll of scotch tape. Use these to keep your brass in. Label each bag with once fired, twice fired, etc. Also note on the tape which step of the brass prep the brass is in. Nothing worse than spending some time at your bench prepping and have to stop. Now say you don't get back to it for a time........ now where the hell was I in the process? Write it down.

Old tupperware containers or even plastic ammo cans from Cabela's to store your bags of brass in, or even store bulk loads.

Plastic ammo boxes to store your finished rounds in - 50 or 100 count boxes.

When I have extra free time, I'll try to get as much brass as I can all the way through the prep stage, then package it up, label it "ready to load". If you get a supply of fully prepped brass always on hand, when it comes time to prime, charge, and seat bullets, you'll be surprised how fast this stage seems. It's the brass prep that takes the majority of your time.

Once you get up and going, make yourself some dummy rounds. With a prepped piece of brass (NO PRIMER), put some mixed epoxy inside the neck (I use slow setting epoxy). Now seat a bullet to your COAL. Write on the case with a sharpie the bullet brand, grain, and COAL. Do this with each different bullet and caliber. I've found that doing this makes adjusting my seating die much quicker when I change bullets. I put my dummy round in the press, raise the ram, then gentley turn down my seating die until it makes contact with my dummy round. This method usually gets me darn close. Now load up a real round and check with calipers and make any small adjustments, then set your lock ring.

Hornady die locking rings - they work well on most dies I believe.

A stuck case remover - sooner or later you will stick one and it will be worth it's weight in gold. Since I've been using only Hornady Unique - applying it with my fingers to the outsides of the cases, and using a Q-tip lightly coated to hit the insides of the necks, I have yet to stick another piece of brass. No, I have not noticed any ill effects on my loads from this method.

Extra decapping pins - they can and do break or bend and if you don't have spares, you're dead in the water. These are cheaper to buy in bulk vs a 5 pack in my experience.

Various pliers, crescent wrench, allen wrenches kept on your bench for adjustments.

1 more loading block than the size batches you plan on loading at a time. This gives you a place to move brass between stages. You might want to start out with universal plastic loading blocks or jump right into something like these - http://www.cncshooter.com/ This guy sometimes does group buys here on the hide. They are really nice, but more of a splurge than a necessity when starting out.

 

[timelinex]

Re: Equipment to start reloading 308 + more

Ok thanks for all the advice. I will be compiling a list of things I need from everything you guys said and will try finding everything online. I'll keep u guys updated.

Currently my list of sites I usually for my rifle needs is: midwayusa,natchezss,palmettostatearmory,cheaperthandirt,ammunitiontogo.
Is there other sites that I don't know about that have good deals on reloading parts?

Lastly, why would lupau brass be a must? In what way does it substantially make things better over normal brass? Whats the best place to buy them. From what I can see they are $90 dollars a box. 3/4 the reason of me starting reloading is to save $$, as I'm not too dissatisfied with the groupings I get with FGMM, so that would be counterintuitive for me to get lupua brass. I understand you use them more than once, but other than amount of prep, I don't believe I've read that theres substantial advantages. (In other words at my stage, Im no willing to pay twice as much to go from .51 MOA to .5 MOA)

 

[timelinex]

Re: Equipment to start reloading 308 + more

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To start with buy a couple reloading books, I started with Lee's Modern Reloading and Lyman's, Sierra would be another good one. After reading these you will have a good Idea of what you will need and a .............................ook "Handloading for Competition". It is not just for competition shooters but anyone wishing to see improvement in their hand-loading skill level. </div></div>
So after looking at some choices including brands that you offered some of the numbers really started adding up. I think you definitely recommended the good quality stuff that you would put your name behind. As a beginner I think I might be ok with things that aren't necessarily as high quality. I probably wouldn't even be able to appreciate the subtle advantages they give considering I don't shoot 1000's of rounds a month or shoot for <.25MOA.
After some further reading I've seen RCBS supreme master kit recommended many places. I found the kit here .
So it has a press,scale,powder measurer,priming tool,lube kit, deburring tool and other parts.
So then I see what I would need to buy still(according to your list) is
1.308 DIE's
2. Shell trimmer,
3.brass tumbler

Then if eventually buy flash hole reamer and primer pocket uniformer.

And what about the overall length gauge and headspace gauge, what will this be used for? Obviously measuring overall length and headspace, but I don't see these tools mentioned to many places, so how will these help?

 

[fireEMT5]

Re: Equipment to start reloading 308 + more

You can get a RCBS precision mic for .308 It will measure headspace and seating depth - http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoo...=SBC;MMcat104792580;cat104761080;cat104516280

Determining head space allows you to only resize and set back your brass just enough for your gun, without over working it. This will extend your brass life.

The bullet seating depth guage shows you how long you can load before or when the bullet meets the lands in your chamber. Setting the bullet slightly less than this measurement (the amount you'll have to determine on your gun) will improve accuracy.

 

[Randfal]

Re: Equipment to start reloading 308 + more

1. What would be a good starter kit that has most of everything I need. I know Lee is the cheapest, but I heard that it's not that great for doing exact amount of powder, that will help you find those great loads. I am not worried about speed of creating just yet. If I really stick to reloading and start shooting massive amount of ammo, I have no problem selling the old stuff and upgrading. <span style="color: #FF0000">Go with the LEE Kit. They are not as Cheapo as before. Yes, the powder dipenser is a bit flaky but it does work good with ball powder. The money saved on the kit would easily buy you a better dispenser. As much as I hate to admit it, the little beam scale in the kit is just as accurate and easy to use as my RCBS 1010 and RCBS electronic dispenser. The best part is the kit has everything you need. The priming tool is as good as any other on the market; included. It has a deburring tool;simple but works, primer pocket cleaner. Also I think they still come with the trim cutter, all you need to start trimming brass is the 308 gauge. It will trim every one exactly the same each time with no brain damage.</span>

2. What would I need on top of that kit, as far as reloading I only have calipers. <span style="color: #FF0000">Get a couple reloading manual and read them. I'm going to suggest the LEE book first because it is a really good down to earth, easy reading book for beginners with a No BS kind of approach. And sit down and read it before starting. It has alot of loads in it that are not manufactureer bias. </span>

3. What brass should I get. I don't think I need something like luepa brass yet. I have 60 rounds of FGMM 175 in 7.62 . I was gonna use that, but after more reading I see that its crimped primers, so I would need another tool that costs 100+ so Im thinking it might just be easier and cheaper to get new brass? This is considering I dont plan on using 100 rounds each time I go so something like 50-100 units of brass would be enough to cycle through. <span style="color: #FF0000">New brass is always nice. The little deburring tool in the LEE kit can cut the crimp out of your old brass. If you only have 60 to do, go for it. It'll build character. But very doable. Just bevel the primmer pockets a little. </span>

4.I have a savage 10 FCP-K. After much reading on loads, I think a good place to start is 175 SMK's and 178 AMAX's, varmint and CCI or federal primers. That sound about right? <span style="color: #FF0000">Sounds fine. Savages shoot most everything great. I have 5. </span>

5. I read the post about using the ladder system and only had one problem with it. It said to use 300-600 yards. Well how would 50, 100 or 200 yards do? 200 yards is the maximum at my range and the reason I mention 50 and 100 is that if Im hoping to to see what the bullet does and not me, the closer the better(to take my skill out of the equation). Would the holes be too close at 50 or 100 yards for me to tell which ones are grouping or not. <span style="color: #FF0000">[color:#C0C0C0]For a ladder test, those ranges would be too close to find out the ideal load for a long range bullet. You'll just find out what shoots good at those close ranges. Slight variances in muzzle velocity will really make a difference at long range. But at 50 and 100 you just won't see it telling you what you are trying to find out with a long range ladder test. But there's nothing wrong with that, It's all valuable experiance. Get good at your 100-200 yd range and build some confidence in your shooting before you jump out to 800 yds and blame yourself for bad shooting. At that range its wind, velocity, rifle, heat, bullets and the shooter. Every little change, changes impact. Good luck.</span>[/color]

 

[Chanonry]

Re: Equipment to start reloading 308 + more

OK a completely different view...

It depends what you want to reload - very consistent, low run out quality or lowest cost possible not too worried about best quality.

If you are talking ladders then I assume it is the former otherwise the runout will screw the results.

You can buy a kit but half the stuff will be good to go and the rest will either be over spec or u/s depending on whether you buy cheap or expensive.

I have a mix of cheapo, good enough and expensive precise stuff. Use the cheap stuff for the jobs where precision isn't critical and spend the cash on the processes you have to get right.

My starting gear was Lee except scales as they needed to be better quality. Trimming tools, depriming, press are all good enough to make good gear. If you want good quality and budget the Lee Collet dies are worth an experiment.

I spent a lot of time trying to work out what the good guys really do rather than listen to the conventional wisdom repeated ad infinitum on the 'net. I ended up speaking with the guys at Redding who gave me a good steer. You don't have to use their kit but it is very good.

For consistent case prep with v.low runout you need to use a body die with 'competition' type shell holders to JUST nudge the shoulder back on every reloading. Never use a die with an expander ball - exercise in futility.

Then use a bushing die to neck size, there are lots of choices. You then have a process that will resize accurately and consistently time after time.

The big difference for me was replacing the wobble seating die with a competition seating type die. This reduced runout hugely and gave me control of the process.

The most important thing if you want to consistently deliver top quality ammunition is to buy a concentricity gauge or equivalent. Without measuring the components as they are worked it isn't possible to be sure that the processes deliver what is promised. Once you have spent some time loading and have measured the quality at each stage you will know how to load for best results and can just measure the odd one to check nothing strange has happened.

I had a hell of a time getting things to behave. One batch would be great then the next would be crap. If I had not measured I would not have know I had a problem never mind fixing it. I would just have 'shot better' some days. Depth of chamfer turned out to be a big issue believe it or not.

Most people don't measure in my experience, but seem to think that they produce ammo better than factory. My unscientific experience is that factory is crap and most reloaders produce some howlers. These are called 'fliers', but I call them crap reloads.

I ran an experiment with my 270 which I could not get to shoot very well (wobble seating die, no cometition seater). I measured the reloads and grouped by runout. With runout <=1thou it shot 1/2 moa in a rest with my old reloads (runout was lets say random) it shot about 1.5 moa. Worth the effort.

Sorry to rabbit on but if you buy top quality dies and a concentricity gauge you can save yourself a 5 year learning curve and a quite few $$z

 

[MaximumVelocity]

Re: Equipment to start reloading 308 + more

I was in your exact shoes about 2 months ago. Where should I start? What should I buy? Why is everything so different?

The best thing to do (like previously mentioned) is to figure out exactly what you want to load and go from there. There is already a ton of good advice in this thread and I will add my experience as well.

I wanted to learn to reload for 3 different rifles that I am waiting on. I absolutely did not want to waste any money on production ammo so I researched this forum, read a few books and watched about 20 hours of youtube reloading videos. Believe it or not, youtube has a ton of good videos. I am an extremely anal individual and do things in my life as precise as possible. My friends tell me that not only am I OCD, but I suffer from an extreme case of it. It may be no surprise that you will find people like this in the guns/ammo world. With this being said, I knew what I wanted to reload. I then performed all my research and made one bulk purchase for every reloading component I wanted to suit my needs. Below I will list what I plan to reload. I will also talk about what I bought and why. I went to a local Cabelas and bought everything I needed except for a few things they didn't stock. These items came from Midway. I was not about to buy a "kit" just so some of the items would collect dust. Example....I knew that I was not going to fool around with a beam scale or an RCBS lube pad.

I will be reloading for 2 custom AR's and a custom .338 Lapua bolt action rifle. The AR's are caliber .223 and .308. My list will be somewhat different than a general "starter" kit because right off the bat I knew I needed components that were somewhat universal since I am now dealing with large rifle AND small rifle primers. I then bought a newer edition of "The ABC's of reloading" and the Lyman Reloading manual.

#1 - Lee Classic Cast single stage press. I went with this one for a few different reasons. It is very sturdy, has a thick ram with little movement and the handle mechanism is very solid. Probably the best $99 I spent. Lee also offers a shell holder kit for this that includes all of your popular shell holders for less hassle on future development if you choose to reload other calibers (about $14 for the shell holders). Even though I may not use it much, it has a very sturdy and solid priming system. This press also incorporates the Breech Lock system that will allow you to set up your dies once. Pop em' in and pop em' out.

#2 - I purchased a Lyman case trimmer. Mainly because it doesn't need a shell holder. I was happy with the design and is a solid universal platform for different cases.

#3 - I purchased a Lyman universal case prep kit. This kit comes with the tools needed for primer pocket cleaning/prep as well as tools to debur. Small and large primer pocket tools included.

#4 - On top of number 3, I picked up a Lyman flash hole deburing tool. Solid design and universal.

#5 - Research for this next item game me a headache. They all seem to be fine and have mixed reviews so I started out with the least expensive automatic powder dispenser I could find. I was not going to jack around with beam scales, tricklers and powder measures. I picked up a Lyman 1200 DPS 3. If this fails me or starts acting up on me I will cut my loss and get the RCBS Charge master.

#6 - I bought a cheap Cabelas brand brass tumbler kit. It came with a tumbler, brass polish and a 3lb bag of media as well as a pan for separating the brass from the media after cleaning. I didn't feel the need to spend a bunch of money here because all this thing does is move around and clean the brass. If it goes out on me then I will pony up for a name brand.

#7 - RCBS Universal hand priming tool. I bought this mainly for being universal design and not requiring a shell holder. Accommodates large and small primers. If it fails me, the press has a good backup system. I only bought this because everyone seems to swear by it. Not because I absolutely needed it.

#8 - I bought a real nice set of universal brass holders. They hold 50 rounds each and I bought 2. I also picked up some small, medium and large rifle ammo boxes for the finished product.

#9 - Die shopping was fairly simple. For the AR stuff I chose to buy the RCBS Small base set and the Redding competition seater die for both .223 and .308. This leaves me with a tool I may or may not use. Since I plan to use the competition seater die for seating, I will not need the RCBS seater. However, since the RCBS seater is also a crimp die, i will pull the seating plunger out of it and use it to crimp only if I choose to go that route. I plan to get pretty hardcore with the .338 so there was no question here. Redding competition set. that one took a chunk out of my ass....LoL

#10 - I went ahead and picked up a universal bullet puller just in case I needed it. The hammer style.

#11 - A universal set of powder funnels

I already had a set of dial calipers because I do engine/gear work as well.

I think that's about it for me. Good Luck!