Maggie’s Excessive force? Maybe? Maybe not?

[Paladin4Christ]

Paladin, this is where you continue to show ignorance of police work and training.

Active shooter training is focused on things like are we waiting for tac, are we sending patrol in with 4 man teams, 2 man teams, a lone officer, who is assuming command on scene initially. The shooting part is focused on the fact that if faced with an active shooter you will have 100's more good guys to work around to get to a bad guy.

And I don't know of any agency that can be accused of over training. Most don't get adequate training.

Nothing in the training focuses on looking at anyone as the next killer. That is outside the scope of what LE in general does. The little, and I do mean little training that we get is solely focused on how we can get to the shooter fast while minimizing body count.

So why the clear change in attitude of police towards those they are hired to serve? Why the progression to being more military like? Compare the LEO from 10 years ago to now. Do you see the difference? I do. It does not seem like a good thing to me.

 

[Slapchop]

Just as I suspected, you are unable or unwilling to actually discuss the topic at hand. You would rather question my knowledge and throw out bullshit like "you opinion carries little to no weight..." or " I would come off like a complete buffoon trying to hold my own in a conversation about neurology with a bunch of brain surgeons". This is a cop out. Pun intended. Seriously, don't let your own self importance cloud your mind into thinking you are smarter than everyone else. You don't even know what Community Oriented Policing is. Sad.

Again, you didn't answer one single question I posed. Which tells me you are unable to have rational discussions.

"I have a BADGE so your opinion doesn't matter", "I have a BADGE so don't you dare questions me." or "I have a BADGE, Shut the fuck up and just thank me for what I do" are great options to your signature line. I think you would fit right in with the officers in their battle gear glaring as the sheep walk by. I mean seriously, how hard is to say "Good Afternoon." But then again, it is much more cool to glare and act important.

Then again you can't have a discussion with people who think they are superior to everyone else.

On a side note, I have a feeling you would have pulled my daughter out of her car to get your jollies because, you come off like a bully.

Your questions weren't relevant to the topic at hand. Your questions were invalid. I explained to you that that's not what the training is or have ever been about but you refuse to see that. You're obtuse in your thinking and you just want to judge others before having walked a mile. You lie and you create things in order to sensationalize your point of view. Christ must be very disappointed in you.

 

[Paladin4Christ]

Your questions weren't relevant to the topic at hand. Your questions were invalid. I explained to you that that's not what the training is or have ever been about but you refuse to see that. You're obtuse in your thinking and you just want to judge others before having walked a mile. You lie and you create things in order to sensationalize your point of view. Christ must be very disappointed in you.

"I have a Badge, what you have to say is invalid and Christ must be disappointed in you, so Shut the fuck up and get in line Sheep."

I did not make up one thing in any of my posts.

This discussion was over before it began. However, you did a great job of demonstrating my point of hostility towards the very people who pay your salary. Isn't New York lucky to have you.

 

[Victory]

So why the clear change in attitude of police towards those they are hired to serve? Why the progression to being more military like? Compare the LEO from 10 years ago to now. Do you see the difference? I do. It does not seem like a good thing to me.

This has absolutly nothing to do with Active Shooter Training.

 

[Paladin4Christ]

This has absolutly nothing to do with Active Shooter Training.

So what does it have to do with?

 

[Victory]

As for the militarization of LEO, I would probably attribute that more with Anti-Terror tasking since 9-11 more than anything else. Also the prevalence and rise of "tactical culture" in America probably has something to do with it. It's cool to be decked out in multicam and all the Gucci gear. Go to a rifle comp these days or any public range, there will be dudes decked out looking all “militarized.” Do they need to have camo gear on to shoot their rifle on a range? No, but they are decked out.

Active Shooter Training has more to do with getting to a bad guy as quickly as possible, but safely to limit the number of people shot; as opposed to setting up a perimeter to isolate the bad guy until the Tac team can move in. The quicker a shooter can be confronted, the sooner his shooting of unarmed people can be stopped. Teaching an officer how to clear a room or pie a corner doesn't change the way they look at the citizens of the US. Why do you think that teaching officers to maneuver to an individual actively shooting people would change the way they deal or interact with citizens in the daily course of their job?

 

[1time]

Excessive force? Maybe? Maybe not?

So what does it have to do with?

It's not an accurate statement. The amount of cameras today may give it that appearance but an appearance is all that it is. LE in general has never been more micromanaged and in the public view. Ten years ago is someone wanted to fight and lost a tooth in the process it was part of doing business. Now if someone scrapes their knee while trying to stab me a full on investigation is done to make sure I wasn't too rough. Cussing is enough to loose days off. Lying about anything no matter how trivial will send us to the unemployment line. Don't take any of this as complaining, it is how it should be. I am just pointing out that there is more over sight and consequence, not less.

As far as militarization and not seeing the difference between an armored car and a tank, a tank is an offensive weapon. An armored car a completely defensive vehicle keeping us and the public from getting shot. The military weapons issued are ar15's. Probably the most popular civilian rifle in the USA at the time. We do not have full auto rifles or belt fed rifles. We are pretty restricted as to when we can use our semi auto civilian rifles.

The body armor our Tac guys use is necessary and still inadequate. One of our best tac guys and former Marine was killed last year when a shitbag shot him and the round made it between the plates. The warrant was to apprehend another subject that had shot 2 people earlier that week. The shooter in the first incident was not even the guy that shot him.

 

[Slapchop]

"I have a Badge, what you have to say is invalid and Christ must be disappointed in you, so Shut the fuck up and get in line Sheep."

I did not make up one thing in any of my posts.

This discussion was over before it began. However, you did a great job of demonstrating my point of hostility towards the very people who pay your salary. Isn't New York lucky to have you.

You have 3-4 guys on that know what they're talking about, trying to tell you otherwise but you're still stuck on some stupid notion that what happened on that hillside was something to do with some particular training. You hurl labels like "murderer" and its clear that you don't even know what murder is. You're not concerned about community policing, you don't want to learn why things are the way they are. You just want to regurgitate the same bullshit you see and hear on here every week. It's not even an original argument. Much less one you can defend.

You made up plenty of things in your posts but when you get called to task on them, you want to flip the script and act like the victim being bullied. Grow up dude, its you that can't have an intelligent discussion. Your mind is already made up so why even bother posting other than to stir the pot? Classic hallmarks of a troll.

 

[Paladin4Christ]

You have 3-4 guys on that know what they're talking about, trying to tell you otherwise but you're still stuck on some stupid notion that what happened on that hillside was something to do with some particular training. You hurl labels like "murderer" and its clear that you don't even know what murder is. You're not concerned about community policing, you don't want to learn why things are the way they are. You just want to regurgitate the same bullshit you see and hear on here every week. It's not even an original argument. Much less one you can defend.

You made up plenty of things in your posts but when you get called to task on them, you want to flip the script and act like the victim being bullied. Grow up dude, its you that can't have an intelligent discussion. Your mind is already made up so why even bother posting other than to stir the pot? Classic hallmarks of a troll.

I only was wrong in calling the armored vehicle a tank. I voiced and opinion and you flamed me for it. You could have made a good impression, like Victory and 1time and pointed out that the militarization that I was pointing out was NOT due to Active Shooter Training. In that case I would have continued the dialog to learn more. Instead you insult me, you dismiss my intelligence and you negate MY observations and concerns.

 

[Slapchop]

I only was wrong in calling the armored vehicle a tank. I voiced and opinion and you flamed me for it. You could have made a good impression, like Victory and 1time and pointed out that the militarization that I was pointing out was NOT due to Active Shooter Training. In that case I would have continued the dialog to learn more. Instead you insult me, you dismiss my intelligence and you negate MY observations and concerns.

You were wrong in trying to sensationalize your post with the whole tank garbage. You were wrong in calling them murderers when you don't even know the definition of the word. You were wrong in drawing parallels were there aren't any. I'm not here to make any "impression" on you. I could give two fucks what you think of me personally as you don't know me or what it is I do but when I see you post inaccuracies or nonsense, I will call you to task for it. There are two sides to the coin you present yours and I present mine. The difference is I speak from experience, you speak from what you see on youtube or the six o'clock news. When I try to tell you that things aren't as you make them out to be, you take offense and call me a bully lol. Whatever bro. I'm not going to change your mind, nothing is.

There are shitty cops that embarrass the rest of us everyday, but just remember this, there wouldn't be any shitty cops, if there weren't way more shitty people in the world. <----Cue the jackass that is going to take that out of context.

 

[Paladin4Christ]

As for the militarization of LEO, I would probably attribute that more with Anti-Terror tasking since 9-11 more than anything else. Also the prevalence and rise of "tactical culture" in America probably has something to do with it. It's cool to be decked out in multicam and all the Gucci gear. Go to a rifle comp these days or any public range, there will be dudes decked out looking all “militarized.” Do they need to have camo gear on to shoot their rifle on a range? No, but they are decked out.

Active Shooter Training has more to do with getting to a bad guy as quickly as possible, but safely to limit the number of people shot; as opposed to setting up a perimeter to isolate the bad guy until the Tac team can move in. The quicker a shooter can be confronted, the sooner his shooting of unarmed people can be stopped. Teaching an officer how to clear a room or pie a corner doesn't change the way they look at the citizens of the US. Why do you think that teaching officers to maneuver to an individual actively shooting people would change the way they deal or interact with citizens in the daily course of their job?

This makes sense and I appreciate you taking the time to explain, without flaming or name calling. Your question is fair and I will answer it below.

I came to my conclusion based on the idea that LEO's were putting an emotional/Physical barrier between the public and themselves, in order to prepare for the possibility of using force in a negative situation. To me this would make sense. How hard would it be to have to use any force, let alone deadly, on someone you have a passing relationship with or interact frequently with?

I further came to my conclusion in relation to being around military people pretty frequently. When these guys are trained to be soldiers, isn't it logical they want to use the training they received. Therefore, it is easy for a civilian to connect the two and attribute it to why the local LEO's are portraying such a poor public perception. Perhaps where I live LEO's are different than the rest of the country but, I can only opine using observations I have made since, I realize the MSM has it's own agenda.

For whatever the reason, I think it is a sad place we find ourselves in. Obviously, I have a heart for LEO's, heck I spent 5 years getting a double degree, one of which is Criminal Justice. I never pursued a PD because there is way more money and a whole lot less danger in what I do. Besides I like weekends and holidays off. I just wish my daughter did not have the opportunity to be treated the way she was, all over a tail light. I hope you can agree.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Agree with the shitty cops comment, probably less than the percentage of shitty people in the general population, but still more than there should be, its up to you guys to "police" your ranks, if you don't you will have the politicians doing it for you, remember how that turned out in the 70's(at least in the Northeast).

 

[Slapchop]

I further came to my conclusion in relation to being around military people pretty frequently. When these guys are trained to be soldiers, isn't it logical they want to use the training they received. Therefore, it is easy for a civilian to connect the two and attribute it to why the local LEO's are portraying such a poor public perception. Perhaps where I live LEO's are different than the rest of the country but, I can only opine using observations I have made since, I realize the MSM has it's own agenda.

So going by your logic, am I to assume that you're eager to use the training you received at Front Sight? I'm trained in CPR, doesn't mean I go to work hoping someone has a heart attack just so I can perform CPR.

 

[Paladin4Christ]

It's not an accurate statement. The amount of cameras today may give it that appearance but an appearance is all that it is. LE in general has never been more micromanaged and in the public view. Ten years ago is someone wanted to fight and lost a tooth in the process it was part of doing business. Now if someone scrapes their knee while trying to stab me a full on investigation is done to make sure I wasn't too rough. Cussing is enough to loose days off. Lying about anything no matter how trivial will send us to the unemployment line. Don't take any of this as complaining, it is how it should be. I am just pointing out that there is more over sight and consequence, not less.

As far as militarization and not seeing the difference between an armored car and a tank, a tank is an offensive weapon. An armored car a completely defensive vehicle keeping us and the public from getting shot. The military weapons issued are ar15's. Probably the most popular civilian rifle in the USA at the time. We do not have full auto rifles or belt fed rifles. We are pretty restricted as to when we can use our semi auto civilian rifles.

The body armor our Tac guys use is necessary and still inadequate. One of our best tac guys and former Marine was killed last year when a shitbag shot him and the round made it between the plates. The warrant was to apprehend another subject that had shot 2 people earlier that week. The shooter in the first incident was not even the guy that shot him.

I'm sorry for the loss of one of your friends.

Just to point out, this is the only post I have waded in on in ages. Usually I lurk. For some reason watching the video that started this whole dialog really struck me and not in a good way. Therefore, I voiced an opinion which I think was logical, when you read my reasoning in my reply to Victory's post. (I don't see a reason to re-write it.) I do not feel my conclusions are not without some merit and are logical for a civilian to reach.

I completely understand how badly things can go simply by looking around. I just have to look at the WSP Officer who was shot in the head and killed while making a traffic stop last year (or perhaps 2012) with no warning. The scumbag was ready and waiting for him. Sad situation.

Thank you again for taking the time to offer an alternative theory as to what is going on today regarding policing.

Stay safe.

 

[Victory]

Officers have been preparing themselves for the use of force probably since the first officer put a gun on his hip. Active Shooter Training has nothing with taking the shot, just getting to the bad guy to take it. There has been tons of use of force training and scenario based training that involve officers learning when to take a shot going on before what you perceive as a “militarization” of LEO.

Thunder game is about to come on, you guys have a good night.

Cheers

 

[FequalsMA]

Wow, I can tell you as a citizen with a CCW, if it were me that pulled the trigger, I would be going to prison. At that distance no one was in imminent danger. Even if under law the shooting was justified, there were other options. Like waiting longer than 3 hours. I'm guessing one of the officers dinner was getting cold.

 

[Paladin4Christ]

Time to eat some Crow SlapChop.

Right on...Where are the people that called the cops murders now? The facts are the facts and it was a good shoot in the eyes of anyone that has been there, done that and knows the facts.

Gee let me guess, the grand jury came back with no true bill?

Imagine my surprise when I changed the channel and CNN was discussing this shooting.

Seems there have been some flat out lies surrounding this shooting. There was NO GRAND JURY. NONE. The DA simply read the statements from the police and accepted them as truth without even looking into the shooting. In fact, she did not look into the other 26 officer related shootings either. Her reasoning (I paraphrase) why would the police lie? They said it was a good shoot so I believed them.

However the Feds don't see it this way. Now the Albuquerque PD is under federal review and will most likely be put under Federal Supervision because the feds took an interest in the video and called it a bad shooting. Evidently there were 12 officers present and a guy 30 feet away with a knife with is back to the officers is not a threat to the officers, especially when he is shot in the back. Oh and then when the Feds came in, they decided to look into the investigation of the other Police related shootings and found that not a single shooting had been taken before a Grand Jury. Furthermore, there were ZERO outside investigations conducted into any shooting. This is where the DA said that she believed the officers.

So SlapChop, you want to point that finger at me for being dishonest about the difference between "Armored Vehicles and Tanks" but you hang your whole argument on a "Clean Bill" that did not happen.

I guess the feds agree with me on this one. Nice try.

 

[TNT]

Imagine my surprise when I changed the channel and CNN was discussing this shooting.

Now the Albuquerque PD is under federal review and will most likely be put under Federal Supervision because the feds took an interest in the video and called it a bad shooting.

Ugh, is more federal oversight the answer? Let's just set up federal oversight for every police precinct, wouldn't that be better? Sounds ineffective. There has seriously got to be a better way to skin this cat. There's arguably a lot of material out there to show where police have made mistakes. How about instead of trying to crucify everyone involved, we try to learn from mistakes, make sure we implement those lessons learned, and get better next time? Yes, some people (officers and citizens alike, on both sides) may need to be punished, but the mob clamoring for revenge, getting enraged and wanting pain inflicted in retribution is just destructive and creates the us vs. them mentality that further fuels the fire.

I've always wondered if we have become so intolerant of mistakes as to actually create more of them by never ever allowing people to learn from them. We won't admit they are mistakes for fear of punishment (sometimes cowardly, other times there may be some justification for this given the lynch mob mentality that can be generated). One mistake and then you're done, because there is a pool of applicants with perfect records that we could take in your place. Well, many with a zero mistake record have maintained it by never taking any risks and so never being put in compromising situations; however we cannot, statistically speaking, avoid these situations from happening. So, what we are doing is putting essentially people in with no experience for what some of them will face, and end up making the wrong decision at the wrong time.

Now I'm not saying everyone who makes a mistake gets a pass, and not that risk taking is necessarily appropriate, or that we shouldn't hold those in authority to high standards - don't think I support carelessness - but consider what would have happened in WW2 had we always had the same no-mistakes allowed mentality. Chester Nimitz would have been canned after running a destroyer aground as an Ensign. He was court martialed and found guilty of neglect of duty with a letter of reprimand. That type of thing today would be game over, you have no career anymore. The fact remains that some mistakes can be recovered from, and some can't. But in either case, trying to exact as much punishment as possible in retaliation is just going to get things covered up instead of making the most of a situation gone bad. Remember Sgt. Powell from Die Hard? C'mon, he was a hero at the end! (yes, there's even a bit of humor in the most serious of discussions, but think about how in every bit of humor there is a grain of truth).

So, in all of this, what I'm trying to say is that maybe if we weren't trying to take the heads of everyone closely associated with any mistake, the incident could be admitted as a mistake, and people could learn from it.