I have a set of Redding bushing dies for 223 and 308. On my respective rifles, they have match chambers, minimum spec chambers cut. I removed the expander ball in each set of dies. I run .003" neck tension on each and work the neck brass as little as possible. A buddy of mine traded for a 30-378 Weatherby. I picked up a set of RCBS dies for him and loaded some ammo. I tumbled the cases, brushed inside the neck, lubed with dry mica and its still a bitch. 1.Why don't I take the expader ball out of this set of dies? It is a factory Weatherby cut chamber. As long as case mouths aren't "egged" or bent I don't see what it would hurt, and wouldn't be such a pain. Whats your opinion? Thanks krw
Expander ball ?
- Thread starter krw
- Start date
Re: Expander ball ?
If you remove the expander ball from a non-bushing die the necks will be sized down too much resulting in tight neck tension. Polish the edges of the expander ball in the non-bushing dies and run it as is until bushing dies can be purchsed. Lube the inside of the necks as your doing, thats about the best you can hope for right now.
If you remove the expander ball from a non-bushing die the necks will be sized down too much resulting in tight neck tension. Polish the edges of the expander ball in the non-bushing dies and run it as is until bushing dies can be purchsed. Lube the inside of the necks as your doing, thats about the best you can hope for right now.
Re: Expander ball ?
William Roscoe gets better groups than me, but I am going to contradict him anyway.
For most of my rifles, the best groups I have ever got is with standard full length dies, no expander ball, and partial resizing.
That makes the necks too small, but I have been able to get every flat base jacketed bullet to start seating just fine. Cast bullets are different, they get shaved if given that treatment.
Remember, great groups from a factory rifle for me is 5 shots at 100 yards into 0.5".
William has got a benchrest background, and he can get a factory rifle to shoot 0.3".
But I have ~ 100 center fire bolt action rifles, and lots of experience if finding the lazy way of getting results.
William Roscoe gets better groups than me, but I am going to contradict him anyway.
For most of my rifles, the best groups I have ever got is with standard full length dies, no expander ball, and partial resizing.
That makes the necks too small, but I have been able to get every flat base jacketed bullet to start seating just fine. Cast bullets are different, they get shaved if given that treatment.
Remember, great groups from a factory rifle for me is 5 shots at 100 yards into 0.5".
William has got a benchrest background, and he can get a factory rifle to shoot 0.3".
But I have ~ 100 center fire bolt action rifles, and lots of experience if finding the lazy way of getting results.
Re: Expander ball ?
Here's the deal...
In addition to polishing the expander ball, remove the expander stem assembly when you size the case.
Then re-install the expander loose or just barely snug with an o-ring under the adjustment nut, lube inside the neck with a Q-tip and expand the neck on the down stroke.
Clean the cases free of lube before priming and powder.
It's effortless to do it this way, and the combination of the push stroke and the floating expander produces more concentric ammo that will rival bench rest and bushing dies for the cost of the o-ring.
Try it.
TC
Here's the deal...
In addition to polishing the expander ball, remove the expander stem assembly when you size the case.
Then re-install the expander loose or just barely snug with an o-ring under the adjustment nut, lube inside the neck with a Q-tip and expand the neck on the down stroke.
Clean the cases free of lube before priming and powder.
It's effortless to do it this way, and the combination of the push stroke and the floating expander produces more concentric ammo that will rival bench rest and bushing dies for the cost of the o-ring.
Try it.
TC
Re: Expander ball ?
Clark, you give me too much credit. I don’t have any special skills that make me better or worse...........OK maybe a little worse than others
Try having the necks of your FL dies honed to a target diameter, one that matches your loaded rounds minus .002" to .003". You'd be surprised of the results. I believe Hornaday and Redding will do this to their dies for a moderate fee. The expander ball can then be discarded.
Clark, you give me too much credit. I don’t have any special skills that make me better or worse...........OK maybe a little worse than others
Try having the necks of your FL dies honed to a target diameter, one that matches your loaded rounds minus .002" to .003". You'd be surprised of the results. I believe Hornaday and Redding will do this to their dies for a moderate fee. The expander ball can then be discarded.
Re: Expander ball ?
I have taken out all the expander balls out of my FL dies.
Then run the brass only 1x through a K&M expander mandrel for the life of the brass
ES's have shrunk considerably, to less the 30 even less than 20. No problems encountered.
And no neck turning.
I have taken out all the expander balls out of my FL dies.
Then run the brass only 1x through a K&M expander mandrel for the life of the brass
ES's have shrunk considerably, to less the 30 even less than 20. No problems encountered.
And no neck turning.
Re: Expander ball ?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have taken out all the expander balls out of my FL dies then run the brass only 1x through a K&M expander mandrel</div></div>
You've pushed all the varying neck dimensions to the OD resulting in more uniform ID. I've done this on different rifles even after neck turning and using a smaller than needed bushing to size with. The results were very satisfactory for LR accuracy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have taken out all the expander balls out of my FL dies then run the brass only 1x through a K&M expander mandrel</div></div>
You've pushed all the varying neck dimensions to the OD resulting in more uniform ID. I've done this on different rifles even after neck turning and using a smaller than needed bushing to size with. The results were very satisfactory for LR accuracy.
Re: Expander ball ?
I have had Forster hone out the necks of my full length sizer dies in 223, 6mmBR, 257 Roberts Ackley Improved, 30-30, 308, 30-06, 8x57mm, and 338 Win Mag.
I have honed out an RCBS 223 sizer die myself.
It turns out that this does not make the ammo measurably more concentric that just not using an expander ball with the original FL dies. It does, however, exercise the brass less.
Once the expander ball has bent the neck, the only way to fix the brass is to fire it again.
I have tried to invent things that will straigten necks that were bent by expander balls and there are some for sale, but still the most practial way is to fire the brass again.
After the brass has been fired, the FL die without a sizer ball will keep the brass concentric by pushing straight down on the neck when it sizes it.
I have had Forster hone out the necks of my full length sizer dies in 223, 6mmBR, 257 Roberts Ackley Improved, 30-30, 308, 30-06, 8x57mm, and 338 Win Mag.
I have honed out an RCBS 223 sizer die myself.
It turns out that this does not make the ammo measurably more concentric that just not using an expander ball with the original FL dies. It does, however, exercise the brass less.
Once the expander ball has bent the neck, the only way to fix the brass is to fire it again.
I have tried to invent things that will straigten necks that were bent by expander balls and there are some for sale, but still the most practial way is to fire the brass again.
After the brass has been fired, the FL die without a sizer ball will keep the brass concentric by pushing straight down on the neck when it sizes it.
Re: Expander ball ?
Myself and a good friend tried this a few years back with Rem700 VS 308's. Me with bushing dies and him with honed FL dies. I never tried the honed dies in my rifle nor bushing dies in his so who really knows. His rifle shot slightly better than mine across the board but, only slightly. Where I shot a .370" he'd shoot a .350", me a .500" him a .470"
It seemed to make a slight difference but, like I said, who knows. We chalked it up to one less moving part, the bushing. The rifles were close to being Twinkies, same load, to the "T", same fps, ES/SD were within 3-5 of each other as well. Both shot extremely well for being box stock factory rifles.
Myself and a good friend tried this a few years back with Rem700 VS 308's. Me with bushing dies and him with honed FL dies. I never tried the honed dies in my rifle nor bushing dies in his so who really knows. His rifle shot slightly better than mine across the board but, only slightly. Where I shot a .370" he'd shoot a .350", me a .500" him a .470"
It seemed to make a slight difference but, like I said, who knows. We chalked it up to one less moving part, the bushing. The rifles were close to being Twinkies, same load, to the "T", same fps, ES/SD were within 3-5 of each other as well. Both shot extremely well for being box stock factory rifles.
Re: Expander ball ?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You've pushed all the varying neck dimensions to the OD resulting in more uniform ID. I've done this on different rifles even after neck turning and using a smaller than needed bushing to size with. The results were very satisfactory for LR accuracy.
</div></div>
Yep, It really works great and talk about reducing your ES & SD. I think you get better brass life as well.
This link explains it well.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/09/neck-expander-mandrels-for-more-uniform-neck-tension/
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You've pushed all the varying neck dimensions to the OD resulting in more uniform ID. I've done this on different rifles even after neck turning and using a smaller than needed bushing to size with. The results were very satisfactory for LR accuracy.
</div></div>
Yep, It really works great and talk about reducing your ES & SD. I think you get better brass life as well.
This link explains it well.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/09/neck-expander-mandrels-for-more-uniform-neck-tension/
Re: Expander ball ?
John Hoover does this with his ammo as well. He rules the roost with his 6.5x284 in the 1000 yard BR matches at places like Williamsport, PA. Look him up at 6mmBR.com Hoover Clan
John Hoover does this with his ammo as well. He rules the roost with his 6.5x284 in the 1000 yard BR matches at places like Williamsport, PA. Look him up at 6mmBR.com Hoover Clan
Re: Expander ball ?
Good link, thanks.
Interesting what he said about, <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's so special about that boxed Winchester brass?
</div></div> for the 6.5-284.
It's the only brass I use as well in my 6.5-284.
Good link, thanks.
Interesting what he said about, <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's so special about that boxed Winchester brass?
</div></div> for the 6.5-284.
It's the only brass I use as well in my 6.5-284.
Re: Expander ball ?
I have found the redding carbide expander ball to be very useful with the bushing dies, if used with large diameter bushings. For example, with my .308, I take a neck bushing die with the expander ball and a .341 bushing. I run the fired brass thru it, which takes the diameter down from .344 to .341, and the expander brushes the inside the of the neck. This irons out any internal deformities. I then switch over to a FL bushing die without the expander ball and a .337 bushing. This takes the diameter down to about .3365 or so (the bushings typically take the diameter down smaller than expected). This enables me to take advantage of the pros of the expander ball and eliminates the cons. With wolf primers, I have been able to get tight groups and ES of 12, with SD of 5 (that was my best chrony session to date).
I have found the redding carbide expander ball to be very useful with the bushing dies, if used with large diameter bushings. For example, with my .308, I take a neck bushing die with the expander ball and a .341 bushing. I run the fired brass thru it, which takes the diameter down from .344 to .341, and the expander brushes the inside the of the neck. This irons out any internal deformities. I then switch over to a FL bushing die without the expander ball and a .337 bushing. This takes the diameter down to about .3365 or so (the bushings typically take the diameter down smaller than expected). This enables me to take advantage of the pros of the expander ball and eliminates the cons. With wolf primers, I have been able to get tight groups and ES of 12, with SD of 5 (that was my best chrony session to date).
Re: Expander ball ?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/...7facc7549be0ea5
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(no expander ball used, *ever*). </div></div>
Back in the day, I asked Prof Bradshaw what difference does it make if a mandrel or an expander ball is used.
He was so down on expander balls back in 1994.
I think I have it now.
One changes the diameter of the neck on the push stroke, one on the pull stroke.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/...7facc7549be0ea5
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(no expander ball used, *ever*). </div></div>
Back in the day, I asked Prof Bradshaw what difference does it make if a mandrel or an expander ball is used.
He was so down on expander balls back in 1994.
I think I have it now.
One changes the diameter of the neck on the push stroke, one on the pull stroke.
