Explain this "wildcat rabbit hole" to me...

[Basher]

Here's the deal. I have a cert that gets me $100 off a barrel from PVA. I have a TL2 with all three bolt heads, but as of right now, I don't have a magnum barrel for it, and I'm wanting to use the cert to get one. I've always fancied a 7mm for some reason, so I think I've narrowed my choices down to the 7SAUM, or the 7 Sherman Short Mag (hereafter referred to simply as the 7SS). My conundrum is that the 7SAUM from a short action seems to be limited to the 160gr range of projectiles, as anything heavier has the bullet taking up power space, whereas the 7SS doesn't appear to suffer from this problem.

So, I'm leaning towards the 7SS in order to have a magnum that I can truly get the most from. HOWEVER, I've never reloaded a cartridge in my life. I've tried multiple times to get into it, but life has always stopped me from doing so. I absolutely intend to make this happen, but AT THE MOMENT, I possess nothing more than a basic level of knowledge about the process. Reloading for an established cartridge is surely more straightforward, but wildcats are a different story altogether, from what I've heard. Rest assured, I'll learn on a .223, .308, or 6.5CM before I jump into a wildcat magnum!

That having been said, what can I expect to deal with if I opt to go with the 7SS? I've seen conflicting reports as to whether ADG's headstamped brass still requires fireforming/hydroforming or not, and I plan to contact Rich directly to get the skinny. What differences can I expect to see, or what challenges might I have to learn to overcome, if I go with a wildcat like the 7SS over a more established cartridge? I'm well aware that I won't have access to factory loads of any kind, so that's a little intimidating. The 7SAUM may not be hugely popular at the moment, but it appears to be making a comeback with some factory loads available, but again, I'd be limiting myself quite a bit.

I'm just looking for info on the pros/cons of going with a wildcat. These can be factual bits of info, or your own personal likes/dislikes, and why you may or may not have gone down the wildcat path yourself. Thanks!

 

[Bradu]

I am not positive but I thought the brass from ADG doesn't require fireforming. If it does, usually a medium load seated .010" into the lands will do the trick. Not a big deal but some people hate fireforming, I don't mind it because it's more trigger time. You would have the option for Copper creek ammo to load new brass for you if the brass doesn't require fireforming.

 

[Lynn Jr]

Can you buy off the shelf reloading dies for it?

 

[MarinePMI]

The real decision/question in my mind is: What is the barrel life with this cartridge? Fireforming is not that difficult or complicated (wild catting that is), but will limit the useable life of the barrel if it is a barrel burning cartridge. Something to consider when going down the wildcat path.

As to just wildcatting in general, I (personally) think everyone should try it at least once. There's a lot of reloading experience to be gained, when you have to form brass (annealing, pressures, false neck, bullet jamming etc.).

Be advised though, it can be addicting and is not for the weak of mind or for someone with shallow pockets.

 

[Bradu]

Can you buy off the shelf reloading dies for it?

Whidden dies are available through Sherman and the brass does require the shoulder to be blown out. Just looked at his brass and it states if does need fire formed.

 

[Bradu]

The real decision/question in my mind is: What is the barrel life with this cartridge? Fireforming is not that difficult or complicated (wild catting that is), but will limit the useable life of the barrel if it is a barrel burning cartridge. Something to consider when going down the wildcat path.

As to just wildcatting in general, I (personally) think everyone should try it at least once. There's a lot of reloading experience to be gained, when you have to form brass (annealing, pressures, false neck, bullet jamming etc.).

Be advised though, it can be addicting and is not for the weak of mind or for someone with shallow pockets.

There is a lot to learn going down this rabbit hole but it's not bad. I over thought a lot of shit and when I finally got my barrel I realized it wasn't near as bad as I thought. I fell into the addicted category and as you said, it's not cheap. I'm wanting to get a little more involved and get a case forming die for my next project.

I started out with just doing Ackley improved and moved on to a 300 norma necked down to 7mm. I went that route over a 28 nosler for something different and to be able to get good brass such as lapua and Peterson. I wished I went improved on that round but didn't just because I didn't want to wait for a reamer then have custom dies made. There's always next time though.

 

[MarinePMI]

Yeah, I got addicted when I started down the sub-caliber rabbit hole. Not as bad as some, but still a definite learning curve was required (especially for radically firmed wildcats like the 17AH). That being said, it wasn't too bad, and was enabled by a nearby "mentor" as well as the host of information on Saubiers.com.

It's not a fiscally friendly hobby, but wildcatting is definitely fun and interesting. IMHO, that's where Quick Load and Quick Design software really shines. A "whiteboard" for wildcatting, so-to-speak, that can give estimates on case volume, starting loads, and powders best suited. The sub-caliber stuff is even more sensitive to things than the larger cases, so it was well worth the investment in time and energy to play in that part of the pool.

 

[918v]

The real decision/question in my mind is: What is the barrel life with this cartridge? Fireforming is not that difficult or complicated (wild catting that is), but will limit the useable life of the barrel if it is a barrel burning cartridge. Something to consider when going down the wildcat path.

As to just wildcatting in general, I (personally) think everyone should try it at least once. There's a lot of reloading experience to be gained, when you have to form brass (annealing, pressures, false neck, bullet jamming etc.).

Be advised though, it can be addicting and is not for the weak of mind or for someone with shallow pockets.

Fireforming can be done without affecting barrel life. Trailboss powder and a cheap lightweight projectile.

 

[MarinePMI]

In some cases yes, but (and I'm not real familiar with the 7SS that Basher is pursuing) in other (thicker) cases, TB may not generate enough pressure to fully form the shoulder. <shrug> I can't say for sure, but wanted to toss out a potential issue to consider.

That being said, if TB does provide enough pressure, then yes, you are correct; in that impact to barrel life would be minimal.

 

[918v]

I have formed 300WM from 300H&H using Trailboss and it formed the shoulder completely. That is a lot more brass movement than what we’re talking about here.

 

[Franko]

I am pretty much in the same boat you are in deciding between 7SS and 7SAUM. From where I am standing the Rabbit Hole is a lack of known good load data, questions about brass quality and availability, lack of known good performance data (if I am going to go with the Wildcat, just what kind of an improvement to performance can I expect), and the associated tool issues

These reasons are why I'm still thinking about it but leaning towards the 7SAUM.

 

[steve123]

Out to 1000Y there isn't a huge difference in wind drift with the 162's or 168's compared to the heavier bullets, at some point the higher BC of the heavies will prevail. These medium weight bullets are better suited to mag length in a SA.

You can still use the heavies but at mag length they'll eat up powder capacity because they'll be so deep into the powder column. All that means is they'll be going slower at mag length than seated farther out at similar pressures. Kinda defeats the purpose unless you want the extra energy.

Half my rifles have a long freebore and I've been able to get great accuracy out of them. With a long freebore you can always single feed the long bullets farther out. The downside is you'll need to pull the bolt out somewhat to grab the case off the extractor if you want to take out a live round.

7Saum is the cheaper and easier solution but the 7SS is probably the way to go if you want to shoot the heavies in a SA in repeater mode.

44 years ago I started reloading. My first attempt there was an issue. The size die and the shell holder didn't jive together, I couldn't bump the shoulder back. Had to take the problem to the local GS. He shortened the die and that fixed it. Once in a while this kind of thing, when tolerances don't work together, happens. Other than that reloading is pretty easy.

 

[steve123]

Until you get mouth-donuts or some other shit you didn't even know was a thing. After 3 weeks of trouble shooting and cycling thru different powders

Yeah, the act of reloading is the easy part most of the time.

It's little weird stuff here and there that throws a guy off.

A few weeks ago 30.4 grains of Varget would fit in my neck sized and fired 6mmBR cases but not in virgin brass, still fit fine in FL sized cases when I received my fitted size die, so I reduced the load 3% for the first firing, which worked great. Previously with the other virgin 6mmBR brass I used other powders and other bullets with reduced loads so I got snuck up on with the Varget.

 

[308pirate]

Wildcats, like that old movie WarGames, the only winning move is not to play..........

 

[Basher]

I'm aware of the "downsides" to fireforming, but have heard of ways "around" it, as noted above. I'm not familiar with the TrailBoss way, but will look into it. There are hydroforming dies available as well, but have read mixed reviews. It's messy and potentially introduces rust and other messes to your reloading area (I'm sure a simple single stage press on it's own mount would allow me to hydroform without much worry), and it only forms your cases 95-99% of the way. Some folks run full-power loads, others use a lower node to fully punch the shoulder out.

Anyway, the certificate is good until December of this year, so I have time to think it through. The other option is to go with a Proof CF barrel, in which case there wouldn't be a rush, giving me plenty of time to do my research.

For what it's worth, this would be more of a hunting/ELR barrel for just messing around, so a barrel life of 1,500-2,000 would probably be possible and entirely acceptable (basing this off 7SAUM life, and the 7SS is supposed to get better). I wouldn't be firing long, rapid strings, so that would help as well.

Anyway, thanks for all the replies so far!

 

[Basher]

You can get a super cheap little single stage Lee press for the hydroforming die and mount it away from your reloading stuff. Once you've finished Hydroforming, you can use it for a universal decapping die or a collet bullet puller

That was kind of my thought process. Just so happens that I have a cheap little Lee single stage that was gifted to me last year... I'm planning to pick up a Forster Co-Ax as my main press, so the Lee will get setup as you mention when the time comes.

 

[Lynn Jr]

I use cream of wheat or Tapioca pudding for fireforming wildcats.
On Dasher or 300 Ackley or 338 Lapua Ackley Improved I use 16 grains of Red Dot then fill the entire case with Tapioca pudding.
I tap the case with a spoon to settle the pudding.
Put a piece of paper towel on top to keep the pudding from spilling and fire away.

 

[MarinePMI]

Red Dot loads always scared the crap out of me (like "string tied to trigger" kind of scared). With TB available now, I walked (quickly) away from the COW and RD method.

Hell, in my 17 AH, the fireforming loads are more accurate than the formed case loads...

 

[Milo 2.5]

Rest assured, I'll learn on a .223, .308, or 6.5CM before I jump into a wildcat magnum!
Thanks!

Do this first, not all like reloading ammo. It also gives you some time to decide.
One scenario I would not get myself in is having to buy loaded ammo for a specialty rd, it's one thing to pay 30 a box, some of these get up to 85 a box.

 

[Rust]

Get the barrel blank before the certificate expires. You can get it chambered for your chosen cartridge anytime. I used to wildcat (still have a 22-250 AI and a 6mm Rem AI) but gave it up as a little too time consuming. Now days if Lapua doesn't make brass for it I'm not too interested.

Another drawback to wildcatting is the lack of load data. Some years back my old man (then in his 70s) and some of his cronies got the fancy Oehler when it first came out so they could read pressure and see if they could add even more powder to their various wildcats. IIRC, the mildest load was still over 70,000 psi. No wonder they always complained about "soft brass" and short case life.

On the use of a short action. One thing is I do not hold the short action as a must have thing when using long VLDs. I have used long actions simply to seat the long VLDs well past mag length required for a short action. Also did it with a solid bottom action rather than use a short action. The bullet seated long allows for a bit larger engine room and a bit more powder in the engine room allowing a little more velocity without higher pressures and without having to diddle with case forming.

 

[Basher]

The cert is for a prefit, so it sort of has to be chambered, haha. I've got a year to think about it, and in fact, I'm tossing the idea around of using a Proof CF, so I's just use the cert on maybe an AI barrel or something. Lota of time to think about it though, haha.

As for the action choice, it'a what I already own, so that's what I'm using. I COULD do an entire build, but half of the reason I'm considering this whole crazy idea anyway is because I have an unused magnum bolt head for the TL2, and wanted to put it to use.

The "easy way out" of this whole conundrum is to just get a 6.5PRC barrel and be done, but I'm not yet convinced that it offers all that much more performance than a hot 6.5CM load. Still more homework to do there, I guess.

 

[Bradu]

I haven't been too impressed with some of the posted PRC velocities that people are getting. Kind of disappointed for how much more powder it uses.

 

[Basher]

I haven't been too impressed with some of the posted PRC velocities that people are getting. Kind of disappointed for how much more powder it uses.

Exactly. Great idea, but so far I'm not terribly impressed. That, plus having always wanted a 7mm, are what's pushing me towards the 7SS or 7SAUM despite both being more work. As stated earlier, this barrel would primarily be for messing around with "ELR" stuff and hunting larger game, neither of which I do a whole ton of right now. That means there's no rush to figure things out, haha.